Win $500 and particpiate in the remixSite Composition Combat!

[quintin3265]

STATE COLLEGE, PA (October 3, 2009) - Today, the remixSite Group announced the remixSite Composition Combat. From October 17 to November 29, video game music artists around the world are invited to participate in this ultimate competition to create the best original work for a role playing game.

Unlike many competitions that consist primarily of remixes of existing songs, works submitted to Composition Combat must be entirely original and must conform to a specific theme, which will be announced on the day the competition begins. Songs will be judged by the community at the remixSite video game music site.

"The video game music community contains a lot of great talent. Music is one of the most significant experiences in a video game, and the quality of music accompanying gameplay can really make or break a game." said remixSite Group director Steve Sokolowski. "There are a lot of amazing musicians in the video game music community, and I'm sure many are looking forward to competing for the top prize and listening to the best the community has to offer."

The winner of the competition will receive $500 cash, with the runner up receiving a new video game of his or her choice on any game system (maximum value of $59.99). A $30 cash prize will also be available for the song that has "most improved" between its initial and final revisions. Instead of a judges panel deciding upon the winners, community members will vote upon the best music using the previously established remixSite reviews system. After the competition period ends at 6:00pm EST on November 29, 2009, a reviewing period will open for all visitors, including non-competitors, to submit their reviews. The winner will be announced in December, with the highest-rated competitor receiving a prize of $500 cash.

In addition to competing for one of the largest prizes in the history of the video game music community, competitors have the potential for valuable exposure to the game music industry. The winner of the competition will have his or her work featured on remixSite after the conclusion of the challenge. The winning work will be publicized to community sites and to game companies.

Since collaboration and learning are a major part of remixSite's mission, participants will revise their songs as they are developed using the remixSite web interface. The revisions system allows artists to receive feedback from community members as their songs are developed.

To be eligible for the competition, participants must register a free account at the remixSite website and post their intention to compete at the remixSite forums at http://vgmdb.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=15. The remixSite website will be updated with the competition's official logo and additional information as it becomes available. Detailed rules and regulations regarding the remixSite Composition Combat are available at the remixSite website at http://www.remixsite.org/.

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About remixSite:

remixSite is a community dedicated to the creation and appreciation of video game music. Its artists, which originate from a variety of musical backgrounds, have contributed songs from all genres, and composers may submit remixes and original works free of charge. The site's collection, which costs nothing to download, has been viewed and downloaded thousands of times by amateur and professional music lovers alike.

Listening, downloading, and posting songs is free of charge at http://www.remixsite.org/.

[Another Toad]

"...prizes will be distributed on December 25, 2009..."

Perhaps the winners will donate their prizes to charity? Just a thought.

[Olarin]

The rules for this competition say that those interested in entering should state their intent in the registration thread on this forum. However, I have not yet seen any such thread. Am I missing something obvious?

[quintin3265]

No, you're not. I'm going to post that thread tomorrow, when the competition begins. Since the thread requires you to post a link to the song that's uploaded, there would be no links if people posted before the competition began.

I apologize - I didn't realize the rules weren't clear on that. I'll make the changes tonight and will create the thread first thing in the morning :)

[WarpToken]

While I agree with users having _some_ say in this, I'm afraid it's going to be a huge disappointment. People need simply sign up as many friends as they can to vote for them... I will still submit my song, but this is fairly disheartening.

[quintin3265]

While I agree with users having _some_ say in this, I'm afraid it's going to be a huge disappointment. People need simply sign up as many friends as they can to vote for them... I will still submit my song, but this is fairly disheartening.

While the theme is not able to changed at this point, the rules do specify that the judging criteria can be modified in the interest of fairness. I agree that there could be improvements made to the system, but the only way I could see to overcome the possibility of a popularity contest is to require a judges' panel. Having a judges' panel is counter to everything the site is about, and people shouldn't have a small group of judges decide whether their music is great or not.

If you have a suggestion for how to improve the voting process, please do post it. Someone suggested anonymizing entries like Dwelling of Duels does, but anonymous entries don't prevent competitors from telling others which entries are theirs. One way of reducing the possibility of cheating is changing the disqualification thresholds - instead of the bottom 25% with the lowest number of votes being eliminated, both the top 12.5% and the bottom 12.5% with the highest number of votes would be eliminated. Another is to disqualify voters who don't vote for at least a certain number of entries, and to require the voters to rate at least three entries the highest score.

[WarpToken]

You could have the submitting musicians' votes carry more weight than the others - with the exception that they must vote for a work besides their own...

I believe this would allow the best submission to really shine.

Edit: BTW, Thanks for accepting ideas.

[quintin3265]

You could have the submitting musicians' votes carry more weight than the others - with the exception that they must vote for a work besides their own...

I believe this would allow the best submission to really shine.

Edit: BTW, Thanks for accepting ideas.

Sounds like a good idea, although a flaw is that people could strategically vote for the weakest songs. Then, almost all the songs would be rated the same, perhaps even with the winning song among the worst entered. Any ideas how to get around that?

I was hoping that there would be more talk about this issue from a variety of different people. Another Toad seems to post here often, thoughts? Or maybe shawn or some of the other competitors?

[quetz]

hmmm, we got 21 of November, my submission is as third.... wird action guys... really. Actually in what direction this combat goes? the combat of maybe 10 artists? really donno what to think about it... If there is some person who can explain why they puted so much effort in it and there is no response?

cheers!

[Kidd Cabbage]

Chances are that most competitors are waiting until the last minute to enter their song, so they have the maximum amount of time they can have to polish their pieces off. That's how it always works in DoD.

[LuketheXjesse]

I'd participate in this if I didn't hear about it so late. :<

[Kidd Cabbage]

Luke! What's up?

Anyway, I'd like to openly thank Remixsite and Quintin for the opportunity to enter this awesome contest. I had never heard of this site previously, despite hanging around the big places in the VG Remixing scene quite a lot, but it's pretty great, and I'd like to post what music I can on the site, and try to promote it in any way I can!

[WarpToken]

Just a quick question....

So If I were to tell some people about the song I posted in the competition today and they gave it a star rating, it wouldn't count for the competition unless they vote during the Dec. 5th-15th period? And if they rate too early, will they be allowed to rate again during the proper time?

Thanks

[Muuurgh]

It may be too much of a pain, but maybe you could require voters to post on a thread in the forum, rank their top 3 (giving them a point value of 3, 2, or 1), and write why they ranked them such. This method may weed out mere popularity votes and also provide the composers with a lot more insight into how their compositions were heard by others. Composers cannot vote for themselves.
I also feel that, in this manner, there has to be at least a final judge in the competition that weighs vote point tally and what is said about the compositions, and I assume that would be you, quintin.

[Kidd Cabbage]

Not that I'm Quintin, but from what I know, that doesn't really seem like what he wants this site to be about.

[quintin3265]

Just a quick question....

So If I were to tell some people about the song I posted in the competition today and they gave it a star rating, it wouldn't count for the competition unless they vote during the Dec. 5th-15th period? And if they rate too early, will they be allowed to rate again during the proper time?

Thanks

The ratings will be reset when the voting period begins. I'll have to update the rules to make that clearer. People can rate whatever they want now, and then vote on the final product again during the rating period.

[quintin3265]

It may be too much of a pain, but maybe you could require voters to post on a thread in the forum, rank their top 3 (giving them a point value of 3, 2, or 1), and write why they ranked them such. This method may weed out mere popularity votes and also provide the composers with a lot more insight into how their compositions were heard by others. Composers cannot vote for themselves.
I also feel that, in this manner, there has to be at least a final judge in the competition that weighs vote point tally and what is said about the compositions, and I assume that would be you, quintin.

While I appreciate the suggestion of my making a choice, I don't like this approach because it assumes that there's a reason why I'm more qualified to judge entries than everyone else. I don't think I'm special in any way when it comes to music appreciation.

As to the idea of rating songs, what you've described is implemented by the site's toplists. During the final tally, we can increase the number of points for higher positions in the toplist, as suggested above. In fact, toplists may be the best way of rating songs, for several reasons:

1. You get a limited number of votes - currently 10, but that can be adjusted
2. You can't vote against people you don't like other than by not including those songs on your toplist
3. You can't include your own songs on your toplist
4. Voters are forced to register, which reduces the possibility of registering votes from random IP addresses

However, it has a disadvantage:

1. Anonymous voting is lost

But even this disadvantage can bring accountability to people and draw more attention to cheaters

I'm curious to hear opinions about Muuurgh's suggestion. I think that using toplists may resolve all of the issues that have been presented here.

[WarpToken]

Toplists don't sound like a bad idea to me.

[Muuurgh]

Not that I'm Quintin, but from what I know, that doesn't really seem like what he wants this site to be about.

I don't want you to get the wrong impression of my suggestion. The idea wasn't based around Quintin's ultimate decision, but rather the reviews of the voters, which, correct me if I'm wrong, is something that this site is supposed to be about (users sharing, listening, and giving feedback to aspiring video game music composers). The only reason that I suggested that he have the final say is because he is the moderator and a presumably unbiased judge, and really, he wouldn't be judging anything but the arguments given by those that review. However, I respect that you would rather not be in that position, Quintin. There aren't any doubts that communal vote results can be untrustworthy, and finding ways to tackle the problems therein is very tricky.

Anyway, regardless of it weighing in on who wins or not, I still think that voters should be prompted to write short reviews for both legitimacy and for constructive purposes. I know I would much rather not place and be told what I can do to improve for next time than place and wonder what I did right or wrong in the eyes of the listeners.

And cool--having the toplist as an option is very handy.

[Kidd Cabbage]

The problem that I see with toplists, and even moreso, the review prompting is that, aside from the ANONYMITY COMPROMISED, I think it will *really* cut down on the people who want to vote because it will just make voting more of a pain.

You're basically suggesting a more exclusive voting system, and while you think it may improve sportsmanship, it helps the site less. If less people want to deal with the hassle of voting, then less people will vote, and will attract less people to the community.

It's kind of like saying "I don't trust these people, so let's exclude them from the community to keep what's here safe," and I don't think that's the type of attitude that Quintin wants for the site.

Not only that, but if we're narrowing down the voters so that the entrants make up a larger majority of the voters, and they're not able to vote for their own songs, either, I think accuracy will go down along that path.

I've always gotta be the dick.

[quintin3265]

The lack of anonymity does seem to be a problem with the "toplists" idea. For now, since it seems as if there is no consensus on how to reduce this problem, I guess cheating is an inherent possibility in any system, and we'll have to leave the judging criteria unchanged since there hasn't been an obviously better alternative suggested.

We will, however, go through all the votes and spend a great deal of time analyzing them for patterns to detect duplicate votes. Per the rules, duplicate votes will be disqualified, and if the duplicate votes are traced to the competitors, the competitors' entries themselves will be disqualified.

Good luck!

[quintin3265]

I just wanted to point out that I won't be reviewing any songs on remixSite until after the competition concludes and the prize money is paid. I've listened to all the songs and have some thoughts, but I won't vote on these songs or offer any opinion on them so that the results are not influenced by my words.

I wanted to make sure that my seeming lack of comment is not mistaken for not caring about the contest.

[Kidd Cabbage]

quintin doesnt care omg

[LuketheXjesse]

whatever shall we do

[Omnomnomnom]

The lack of anonymity does seem to be a problem with the "toplists" idea.

I'm not sure what the ideal solution is at all, but the Toplists could retain anonymity by emailing them directly to you maybe? It's a bit of a clunky concept and we'd be relying on your honesty, but I don't see that really being an issue, especially if we can see the scores "as is" being updated every day.

Just a thought.

[Kidd Cabbage]

I'm going to sue you, Luke.

[quintin3265]

I'm not sure what the ideal solution is at all, but the Toplists could retain anonymity by emailing them directly to you maybe? It's a bit of a clunky concept and we'd be relying on your honesty, but I don't see that really being an issue, especially if we can see the scores "as is" being updated every day.

Just a thought.

This might work, but is there any way to prevent duplicate votes? While the voting system on remixSite tracks a lot of data that will later be used to detect fraud, I'm not sure if any information can be obtained from an E-Mail header to determine if any fraud is occurring.

[Omnomnomnom]

Hm, I see the problem... I tried looking at this from a few different angles, but I don't think there's any way to really get around the cheating thing. Once money is involved, people might cheat. Maybe in future competitions the prizes should be smaller but the top 3 tracks get the same prize? This would help cut down on the effect of cheating at least and people who should win legitimately are awarded appropriately if they even make 3rd place. Doesn't change anything about cheating, but at least makes it much more work to win the same amount.

But to be honest, I don't think that anyone on this site who's entering really cares about the prizes. It's a nice incentive but people taking it seriously probably just want a little help making it into the industry. In the business world, tracks are going to be judged by someone looking for music for their game. If the only incentive was these tracks being presented, then cheaters have little/nothing to gain.

I still like to toplist idea, but yeah, probably not gonna get around it.

[quintin3265]

There is a third option here, which might give the best of both worlds. I can comment out the code that displays a user's toplist on his or her public profile page. All other toplist functions would remain the same. Since toplists were just introduced, very little data would be lost by using them for this purpose for right now.

After the competition ends, then toplists could be made visible again. A warning would be given so that those who want to change their toplists to retain anonymity can make the appropriate changes before the code is uncommented. But even if someone decides to take no action, nobody will know if people actually bothered to change their toplists from the original voting order or not. Alternatively, the toplists can simply be purged at the end of the voting period, and after that, they will start fresh with the normal functionality.

The other suggestions - the first entry on the toplist gets the most points, and so on, can be retained in this system.

[Omnomnomnom]

Toplists are for any track on this site, yeah? (Haven't looked into them much, sorry) So as time goes on and more competitions have been run, that might annoy a few people. Any way the code could be duplicated for temporary competition toplists that are always anonymous and kept seperate to personal toplists? Not sure how much work would be involved in that, or if it could even be done, but I definitely think you're onto something here. It's probably not too much to ask for the toplists to be fiddled with every now and then, especially when it solves so many problems.

[quintin3265]

Toplists are for any track on this site, yeah? (Haven't looked into them much, sorry) So as time goes on and more competitions have been run, that might annoy a few people. Any way the code could be duplicated for temporary competition toplists that are always anonymous and kept seperate to personal toplists? Not sure how much work would be involved in that, or if it could even be done, but I definitely think you're onto something here. It's probably not too much to ask for the toplists to be fiddled with every now and then, especially when it solves so many problems.

No, I hadn't envisioned this as being a permanent solution. Compos were always a feature of the site that was planned from the beginning, and separate voting would be a part of that system. This could be a temporary change that can be taken advantage of because the toplists haven't been online for long enough to be in wide use.