Submissions - Album Titles

[Secret Squirrel]

Current Guidelines

There is support for multiple titles, separated by carriage returns (Enter key). Only the first line is absolutely required.

line 1: Display Name


This is the name that will appear as the title when the album is displayed.

Generally, the name for an album comes from the title on the Front or the Spine.

If the game has an official english name, you may use it instead of the romanized Japanese name (Art of Fighting instead of Ryouko no Ken). Don't submit a literal translation of a game's name if it differs from the official English game name, or if the game has no English release. It is fine to translate other parts of the album title.

Never abbreviate to OST (unless the title really does include it, but this is rare).

All monospace characters should be mapped to the Latin charset equivalent, thus ～ＪＡＳＣＩＩ should be ~JASCII. Decorative symbols like ☆ are still permitted.

line 2: Original


Use this when the official name differs from the display name.

For Eastern releases, this will often require Unicode characters.


line 3: Romanized


Direct romanization of the original title. Note, don't include this if it's essentially the same as the Display title.

In particular, please do not literally transcribe loan words (i.e., no Orijinaru Saundotorakku)


line 4+: Alternatives


Any alternate titles can be added here. For albums whose titles and franchise names are typically rendered in English, Japanese titles may be included here to aid in searches.

Unless the front or obi indicates otherwise, a main title and a sub title should be separated by a colon ( : ), and two titles of equal standing should be separated by a slash (/). A slash (/) may also be used at the submitter's discretion to include the artist's name on an artist album, as Title / Artist.

Changelog


22-Feb-2010 -- Standardized the mapping of monospace characters to the Latin charset equivalent for display titles.
26-Feb-2010 -- Standardized the separator for subtitles.
26-Feb-2010 -- Kept the inclusion of names in artist albums up to the submitter's discretion, but standardized the format.
26-Feb-2010 -- Rejected the idea of splitting out subtitles into separate fields.
26-Feb-2010 -- Japanese titles for English albums may be included as an alternate.
26-Feb-2010 -- Fan translated titles must be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.
27-Feb-2010 -- [Limited Edition] is now automatically appended to titles.



Technical Changes to Implement


Some kind of marker for digital albums (in the spirit of the Reprint marker.)



Proposed Changes for Discussion


Standardize on Romanized or Western game titles in the Display Title for the album
Overhaul to the multi-title system

[Myrkul]

Standardizing the inclusion of names in artist albums (e.g., Hoshizora no Sakamichi / Haruka Shimotsuki)
Not sure about what do you want to standardize about the artist names..
But i am for including the artist name in the following case: CD singles & works albums.
Should it be always "album / artist" or "artist / album" ? (i am personally for "album / artist")
Should we just follow the cover/spine title ?

Standardizing the separator for multi-line titles (~, -, EM DASH?)
This is interesting and not always followed (as it's also a personal preference for each user i think)
We could include the standardization of sub-titles when there is no special characters.. -xxx- [xxx] ..
But again i think we should follow the cover/spine when there are such characters.

Should subtitles be split out into a separate field?
Personally don't think it's needed, but let's hear more opinions about it.

Should fan translations be allowed for certain titles (e.g., Mamoru Has Been Cursed!)
I think it should be on the "alternative titles".. again, let's hear more opinions.

Inclusion of Japanese titles on albums whose title is already in English
This is semi-useful, it can fetch a few more Japanese users, i am for it when you are able to privide it.


If the game has an official english name, you may use it instead of the romanized Japanese name (Art of Fighting instead of Ryouko no Ken). Don't submit a literal translation of a game's name if it differs from the official English game name, or if the game has no English release. It is fine to translate other parts of the album title.

This is the most important point i think and is still unclear and not respected totally.
I will submit once more my example:

You say we can use Art of Fighting insead of Ryuuko no Ken, but then we have been using Garou Densetsu for years when there is a english name: Fatal Fury.
(art of fighting is a complicate case since the 3rd album use both names..)

To be honest, i always stick with romanized names (this is a personal choice)
It's maybe time to choose something definitive about it.

[seanne]

* Standardizing the inclusion of names in artist albums (e.g., Hoshizora no Sakamichi / Haruka Shimotsuki)

I've always been for the 'album name / artist name' way of handling these kinds of albums since I think it helps them to stand out a little bit in searches. It's almost like having a separate color for them.

* Standardizing the separator for multi-line titles (~, -, EM DASH?)

In cases where there is no clear separator(s) between two (or more) parts of a title, or where they are on two lines on the covers, I tend to prefer either a : or a / depending on what the title is like.

A main title and a sub title = :
Two titles of equal standing = /

Here's an example of what I mean:
Nobunaga's Ambition: National Edition / Romance of the Three Kingdoms

* Should subtitles be split out into a separate field?

I think this sounds like it could be confusing if the subtitle is just put in a field further down, and it doesn't seem too necessary to begin with. I think it's useful in cases such as this (http://vgmdb.net/album/2766) though.

* Should fan translations be allowed for certain titles (e.g., Mamoru Has Been Cursed!)

As a fourth line, but only for search purposes, like if the fan translation is very well known and the original is not.

* Inclusion of Japanese titles on albums whose title is already in English

Personally I don't like it, unless it's somehow made clear that it isn't an original title. It might also be hard to know how to properly spell certain names and such using katakana. But this really depends on if Japanese users would find it helpful or not.

[Ira]

Standardizing the inclusion of names in artist albums (e.g., Hoshizora no Sakamichi / Haruka Shimotsuki)
I like this (though I think it should be in the form of '[artist] / [album]'.)

Standardizing the separator for multi-line titles (~, -, EM DASH?)
Should subtitles be split out into a separate field?
Should fan translations be allowed for certain titles (e.g., Mamoru Has Been Cursed!)
Agreeing with seanne (http://vgmdb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3985#3) on all accounts.

Inclusion of Japanese titles on albums whose title is already in English
Seems unnecessary, the Japanese (from what I've seen) have little problem with English titles. But what about cases like ALiCE'S EMOTiON albums where he provides a katakana title, should that still be added as an extra title? I personally feel it's unnecessary because like I said the Japanese use the English title (or the English title in conjunction with the katakana title.)

Standardize on Romanized or Western game titles in the Display Title for the album
I think if there's an official translation it should be used in most cases.

Other thoughts...
A large pet peeve of mine regarding titles is stuff like "X Y Z album '[name here]'". I think the display title should be well, the 'name' of the album and that the name prefixed with whatever the album is supposed to be of (usually stuff like 'X arrange album' or 'X compilation', or 'super hyper something') should be an alternate. Few seem to agree with this, however.

I also prefer using artist's sites as a source for the correct title OVER how it's printed on the jacket, as the typography used on the jacket isn't always correct (such as this (http://vgmdb.net/album/14550) for instance.) This statement however contradicts my earlier one not wanting to use the katakana title of ALiCE'S EMOTiON albums because he often prints the title in the form of 'Lycoris -リコリス-' online. I just can't win can I?

[Kaleb.G]

* Standardizing the inclusion of names in artist albums (e.g., Hoshizora no Sakamichi / Haruka Shimotsuki)
I personally feel that artist names should not be included in the album titles, unless it's needed to distinguish between albums (e.g. Genso Suikoden Music Collection). The "album / artist" or "track title / artist" displays are commonly used in mainstream music which places greater emphasis on artist names than album or track titles. However, we already have fields for the artist. There's a blurry line here, because what's to say this album (http://vgmdb.net/album/77) shouldn't have the album title "Seiken Densetsu / Legend of Mana / Composed, Arranged & Produced by Yoko Shimomura"? It still essentially means the same thing as just having an artist name there, such as on "iFUTURELIST".

* Standardizing the separator for multi-line titles (~, -, EM DASH?)
Anything is fine by me as long as it's standardized. It would be best to use a character not often found in standard titles, yet is still easily type-able on a standard keyboard. Seanne's example is pretty good.

* Should subtitles be split out into a separate field?
I don't know, but in seanne's example, we may need "title prefix" and "title suffix" fields, since "Riverhill Soft Sounds Collection Scene III" actually precedes the main album title.

* Should fan translations be allowed for certain titles (e.g., Mamoru Has Been Cursed!)
4th+ line is fine for this.

* Inclusion of Japanese titles on albums whose title is already in English
4th+ line is fine for this.

* Standardize on Romanized or Western game titles in the Display Title for the album
The main problem with all of this is the argument of "what is most relevant"? There are essentially four titles off the bat: original (Japanese), Romanized, literal English translation, and Western game title. This could mean that "display title" should not be a field, but rather a pointer to one entry in a list of clearly defined fields.

We could do something like this:
line 1: literal English translation (if original is not English)
line 2: Romanized title (if original does not use Latin characters)
line 3: Original title (using the characters of the original language)
line 4: English translation using Western game title
line 5+: alternatives

Then have a display title combo box for picking one of those titles which is the most commonly used.

At the very least, there would be less arguments about which data should go in the display title, and the focus would just go on which title should be displayed.

[Gigablah]

I'd like to add something to the list of topics:

-- Standardizing the mapping of monospace characters to the Latin charset equivalent

I usually prefer characters such as ～ and ・ to be mapped to ~ and · respectively for translations and romanizations. Naturally, ＪＡＳＣＩＩ　ｃｈａｒａｃｔｅｒｓ should always be converted to ASCII as well.

The exception is symbols like ☆, although some people tend to convert those into asterisks.


I also prefer using artist's sites as a source for the correct title OVER how it's printed on the jacket, as the typography used on the jacket isn't always correct (such as this (http://vgmdb.net/album/14550) for instance.) This statement however contradicts my earlier one not wanting to use the katakana title of ALiCE'S EMOTiON albums because he often prints the title in the form of 'Lycoris -リコリス-' online. I just can't win can I?

There's a distinction to be made between the stylized title (i.e. print or logo version) and the transcribed title. For example, if you strictly follow what's printed, this (http://vgmdb.net/album/13649) would be ChäoS;HEAd instead of CHAOS;HEAD (the publisher consistently uses the latter).

What I feel is, for parts of the album title that don't refer to a trademark, use what's printed (i.e. Original Sound Track versus Original Soundtrack). Otherwise, follow the publisher's transcription style. Better yet, follow what's written on the obi (if applicable), since there's too little space there to do fancy typography or logos.

[Ira]

There's a distinction to be made between the stylized title (i.e. print or logo version) and the transcribed title. For example, if you strictly follow what's printed, this would be ChäoS;HEAd instead of CHAOS;HEAD (the publisher consistently uses the latter).

What I feel is, for parts of the album title that don't refer to a trademark, use what's printed (i.e. Original Sound Track versus Original Soundtrack). Otherwise, follow the publisher's transcription style.

I agree. Though, the example I gave wouldn't be considered a trademark, but I still stand by the title the label gives it on their site (and as listed on sites selling it.)

Also I agree about characters, though I do think symbols that don't really have a proper equivalent should be kept (such as ☆.) I do think the original title should be kept unchanged, but you're only talking about this in terms of romanizations and translations, correct?

[Gigablah]

Yeah, the original title definitely should be kept untouched.

[Cedille]

My issue with the [... / Artist Name] thing is that the slash is often not printed on the front cover or spine. I feel we add it mostly because we follow how online stores or such list their J-pop singles and albums. Even if the artist name is printed somewhere with the slash, one can still argue it's not a part of the album title. In addition, this slash makes it harder to handle double A-side singles unless we use two slashes like [A-side track name / A-side track name / Artist Name]. We can still omit one of the two A-side track names, but considering that double A-side means both tracks are even, I'm not sure it's appropriate. For these reasons, I'd go so far as to suggest the exclusion of the artist name, but I know this is a big change, and as stated it's certainly useful in some regards (suckers for specific vocalists would certainly prefer the inclusion, I guess).


Seems unnecessary, the Japanese (from what I've seen) have little problem with English titles. But what about cases like ALiCE'S EMOTiON albums where he provides a katakana title, should that still be added as an extra title? I personally feel it's unnecessary because like I said the Japanese use the English title (or the English title in conjunction with the katakana title.)

Even though it always returns far less results, I for one search albums by Japanese quite often because even one word isn't discarded. Also, there are many titles I often can't spell correctly in English and is puzzled by zero results and then have to try again in Katakana (BEYONETTA, SOUL CALIBER, BLAZEBLUE or Assasin Creed...). By no means I claim this is the average language skill of people in Eastern, and even so, we just have to check the correct spellings, to begin with. It's at least extremely useful to let every album have Japanese titles, though. I don't think the original line is the best place because it's often unclear which is the original, while we (me included) often add the Japanese title to the second line. Perhaps the alternate line, but I think it can ideally be placed the best in a dedicated line because it also can serve as the original line when the Japanese title is printed on the front cover, but I understand it's too daunting to add Japanese to every release, and we probably don't need to give visitors from one particular regions such special treatments.

[Secret Squirrel]

Hm, I wonder if I should have done these one at a time. Well, I'll respond to a couple now, and work my way through them.

Standardize the mapping of monospace characters to the Latin charset equivalent for display titles.

We've been following this guideline for a while, so I accepted it. I just need to add it to the instructions.

Standardizing the inclusion of names in artist albums (e.g., Hoshizora no Sakamichi / Haruka Shimotsuki)

This is only intended for artist albums, particularly albums that are marketed as single or full album releases from a vocalist.

I see Cedille's point about the use of slash in A-side/B-side releases, but I am not sure I can think of anything better than a slash. Also, I'm in the camp that prefers the artist name at the end.

A rationale for including the artist name comes from classical music. If you have a CD containing Beethoven's First Symphony, the title is just "First Symphony." However, that is not a very useful title for pulling this album from a page of other albums titled "First Symphony." So, "First Symphony / Ludwig van Beethoven" is more descriptive and useful. Granted, classical music might not be the best source for an example; there are other bits of info like conductor and orchestra that could also enhance the title, and in fact you'd probably present the search results in a different manner than we do if you were cataloging that genre.

[Cedille]

Personally, if some albums have too generic titles and need more distinctions, I'd take [.../Ludwig van Beethoven] as the discretionary suffix (like the one we use for iTunes releases, reprints and Limited Editions) rather than something we have to add to every other album that may already have a more identifiable title on its own, and in the worst case, can be better without the artist name. Still, I surely see why people appreciate its presence for multiples reasons anyway. Indeed, I would less mind it, on the condition we can draw up an explicit standards on why some albums need it while others not, and how to add it.

In many cases, we often copy the Japanese text from other websites and paste it in the title field (mainly because the scan to transcribe the title isn't available until later), but there are various ways for the Internet to add the artist name ([Album / Artist], [Artist / Album], [Album ~ Artist], [Album - Artist] and so on), and I'd rather standardize it, especially given that we're not based on what's printed on the scans here. My preferred solution is having a suffix box with which we can place the artist name somewhat better (color, placement, text size, etc.) and therefore we don't need to bother with the slash problem I mentioned above, because spacing is enough and better.

With regard to character song albums where the fictional character is credited as the artist instead of the actual vocalist, I doubt the Hentai/Yaoi character name really matters to the majority of us (note: that's another story, when the name is a part of the title, which is sometimes hard to determine), so I'd suggest we basically omit, or at least submit it like [Name (CV. Artist)].

[Dag]

Standardizing the inclusion of names in artist albums (e.g., Hoshizora no Sakamichi / Haruka Shimotsuki)Include for singles but within reason (see Cedille's points) but at least add an alt title with the original. Also I suggest to add an alt title with the game they are related so they appear in searchs and are easier to find (ex.- "Name / Artist (Game X Opening)").

Standardizing the separator for multi-line titles (~, -, EM DASH?)No preferences but consider using special characters/separators and handle presentation programatically, in case the policy changes.

Should subtitles be split out into a separate field?Can be confusing, not really that needed.

Should fan translations be allowed for certain titles (e.g., Mamoru Has Been Cursed!)4th+ line but within reason, list relevant ones only (ie.- I think 'Mamoru Has Been Cursed' is rarely if ever used to call the game so avoid, but Treasure of the Rudra would be ok).

Inclusion of Japanese titles on albums whose title is already in English4th+ line. If kanji-only titles can be romanized for western users surely kana/kanji can be added to help asian users.

Standardize on Romanized or Western game titles in the Display Title for the albumDiscuss case by case, user selection can be used to alter it (though it doesn't work too well right now). I'd go with romanized for long series, especially if they have US albums released (ex. Akumajo and Castlevania).

Standardize the mapping of monospace characters to the Latin charset equivalent for display titlesAgreed, asian characters should be changed to western equivalents (not only in look but in meaning). Universal (unicode) characters should be kept (ex.- notes, hearts). I'd add and discuss a "conversion list" since not everybody may know them or agree (ex 『 > ' , 「 > ").
Also sometimes in JP titles/tracklists I find this strange variation of ～: 〜. Seems non-standard so I'd change all instances to ～.

Other suggestions:
- Follow caps more strictly at least for trademarks or clear, consistent use of mixed case like Gigablah said (if this annoys people simple css or js magic can fix it). This means "FINAL FANTASY Original Soundtrack" and such for Square albums in glorious CAPS. Specially if the title is only written in Latin letters (FF again).

- Consider separating the display/romanized/alternate (US, fan-tranlations) names and the printed title(s) in different boxes, so there is a clearer distintion (it doesn't need to be too apparent to the user, just when editting). Currently you can't tell them apart. For albums without scans or digital releases long gone, it's info lost forever.

[Ira]

Thinking about it more, names in the title seems unnecessary. I was thinking about it in the sense of how discogs does it (like this (http://www.discogs.com/REDALiCE-Alabaster-Otonoishi/release/777080) or this (http://www.discogs.com/%E6%BA%90%E5%B1%8B-Minamotrance-Core-Quad/release/1931791)) which wouldn't be adding the artist to the title, but simply querying the relevant artists (arrangers if it's an arrange album, etc.) assigned to the album (or displaying various if there's more than x.) Unless this is what is being discussed and I just got confused somewhere. In any case, this would be useful for some doujin albums (ones by one or two artists) and solo works albums, but it's not useful for OSTs.


Also sometimes in JP titles/tracklists I find this strange variation of ～: 〜. Seems non-standard so I'd change all instances to ～.

For romanized and english tracklists. Original (JP) tracklists should retain these characters, much like original titles.

Follow caps more strictly at least for trademarks or clear, consistent use of mixed case like Gigablah said (if this annoys people simple css or js magic can fix it). This means "FINAL FANTASY Original Soundtrack" and such for Square albums in glorious CAPS. Specially if the title is only written in Latin letters (FF again).

This usually seems to be done, but yes (there are some times conflicts with typography, however, which has been mentioned.)

[Dag]

For romanized and english tracklists. Original (JP) tracklists should retain these characters, much like original titles.The first one I listed is a monospace (asian) ~ which JP titles/tracklists do use. The second one looks squished (half width?) to me, I don't think it is ever printed but it's found here sometimes. I have trouble copy/pasting it to certain programs so I assume it's non standard.
Maybe a bigger font it's needed to see the differences, try with this: ～ (monospace/asian), 〜 (weird), ~ (latin).

[Ira]

The first one I listed is a monospace (asian) ~ which JP titles/tracklists do use. The second one looks squished (half width?) to me, I don't think it is ever printed but it's found here sometimes. I have trouble copy/pasting it to certain programs so I assume it's non standard.
Maybe a bigger font it's needed to see the differences, try with this: ～ (monospace/asian), 〜 (weird), ~ (latin).

I know the difference, and it's still used in some cases. If it is printed on the album (or the track list on the publisher/label/artist's website) it should be used.

Edit: It's also valid unicode (http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U3000.pdf) (see 301C.)

[Gigablah]

The inconsistencies with ～ (full-width tilde) and 〜 (wave dash) is due to differences in Unicode mapping (http://www8.plala.or.jp/tkubota1/unicode-symbols-map2.html). Another explanation is given on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilde):

The wave dash (波ダッシュ, nami dasshu)—Unicode U+301C—is used for various purposes in Japanese. Note, however, that in practice the full-width tilde (全角チルダ, zenkaku chiruda)—Unicode U+FF5E—is often used instead of the wave dash, because the Shift JIS code for the wave dash, 0x8160, which is supposed to be mapped to U+301C, is not mapped to U+301C but mapped to U+FF5E in Code page 932—Microsoft's Code page for Japanese, a widely-used extension of Shift JIS. In other platforms such as Mac OS and Mac OS X, 0x8160 is correctly mapped to U+301C, but it is generally difficult, if not impossible, for computer users in Japan to type U+301C, especially in legacy, non-Unicode applications. Also, the wave dash glyph in JIS/Shift JIS is almost identical to the Unicode reference glyph for U+FF5E, while the reference glyph for U+301C is roughly its “mirrored” version. Nevertheless, the Japanese wave dash is still formally mapped to U+301C as of JIS X 0213. Those two code points have the identical or very similar glyph in several fonts, reducing the confusion and incompatibility.

For compatibility reasons our freedb component outputs the full-width tilde (～) instead of wave dash (since applications like EAC can't handle those characters).

Long story short, it's all Microsoft's fault

[Ira]

I stand corrected.

[Kaleb.G]

So, which of the two should we actually use? (Now that we know they both essentially mean the same thing to the Japanese.)

And I support using ~ in its place for all English/Romanized tracklists.

[Dag]

The inconsistencies with ～ (full-width tilde) and 〜 (wave dash) is due to differences in Unicode mapping.

Interesting... I'll keep an eye then.

So, which of the two should we actually use?
Well, like IRA says whatever is printed/used, but personally I've only seen full-width tildes (or they look like that to me) in scans. Maybe they look the same when printed, any scans with wave-tildes? Older albums (before unicode was widely used) only could use full-width tildes, no?

[Ira]

Older albums (before unicode was widely used) only could use full-width tildes, no?

No, wave dash is part of shift_jis, so it might appear on older stuff. But, I honestly have never seen it used except for in some odd cases, I can't even think of any albums that use it.

[Secret Squirrel]

* Standardizing the inclusion of names in artist albums (e.g., Hoshizora no Sakamichi / Haruka Shimotsuki)

I don't think we've quite converged here, though it seems like more are leaning towards dropping the artist name as part of the title. That's still not my personal preference. It seems like the correct stance may be to not propose any standard for this, and just let them be added at the submitters' discretion, which is how it is now.

Automatically generating and appending the artist name like Discogs is a little tricky, since we'd want to apply the rules that Cedille mentions (restrict it to vocal and arrange albums with one artist). It's doable though, but I'm not sure we should go that route. Speaking of auto-generation, another thing to bring up is the addition of (Limited Edition) and (iTunes) extensions to the titles, which we can also generate.

I also prefer using artist's sites as a source for the correct title OVER how it's printed on the jacket, as the typography used on the jacket isn't always correct (such as this for instance.)

I think one example is here. (http://vgmdb.net/album/442) These guys seem to be all over the place about whether they are Tecno Soft, Tecnosoft, Technosoft, or Technsoft. We chose the one from the copyright over the one from their logo (though we should continue to investigate as TecnoSoft might be the correct one) regardless of what was spelled on the cover.

* Inclusion of Japanese titles on albums whose title is already in English

Cedille makes a good case for this. Generally I'd put them in the alternates.

* Standardizing the separator for multi-line titles (~, -, EM DASH?)

(Seanne's idea)

In cases where there is no clear separator(s) between two (or more) parts of a title, or where they are on two lines on the covers, I tend to prefer either a : or a / depending on what the title is like.

A main title and a sub title = :
Two titles of equal standing = /

It looks like most agree with this standardization, and I like it to. The only thing I'd add is that it can be superseded by what's on the cover/obi (for example, if they offset a subtitle by enclosing it in tildes or dashes).

Should subtitles be split out into a separate field?
Looks like there's not real support, and no good rationale for doing this, so unless anyone has some additional info, we can toss it.

Dag's suggestion -- Follow caps more strictly at least for trademarks or clear, consistent use of mixed case like Gigablah said (if this annoys people simple css or js magic can fix it). This means "FINAL FANTASY Original Soundtrack" and such for Square albums in glorious CAPS. Specially if the title is only written in Latin letters (FF again).
I like this, and in practice it's how I do my submissions.

Ira's suggstion -- A large pet peeve of mine regarding titles is stuff like "X Y Z album '[name here]'". I think the display title should be well, the 'name' of the album and that the name prefixed with whatever the album is supposed to be of (usually stuff like 'X arrange album' or 'X compilation', or 'super hyper something') should be an alternate.
I guess you knew it would be a hard sell, but I'm not a fan of this. I tend go the other way in prefering titles with more information. In this scheme, this album (http://vgmdb.net/album/16112) would just be titled "Rose Crimson."

Dag's 2nd suggestion -- Consider separating the display/romanized/alternate (US, fan-translations) names and the printed title(s) in different boxes, so there is a clearer distinction (it doesn't need to be too apparent to the user, just when editing). Currently you can't tell them apart. For albums without scans or digital releases long gone, it's info lost forever.
I wanted to bring this forward to see what people thought about it. In some ways it might be cleaner, but it presents the user with more fields, so as an interface I'm not sure I like it. On the back end, these titles are all stored in the same text field in the database, so this also raises the question about whether those should be split out as well (they don't have to be.)

[Gigablah]

Names in general (not just album titles -- track titles, artist names, etc) should all be split into separate rows for different languages and different variations / translations.

I imagine that's what I'll work on next, since this is a prerequisite for the new tracklist system to work. The interface doesn't need to be complicated -- I'll try to retain the feel of working with a multiline textbox.

[Ira]

I guess you knew it would be a hard sell, but I'm not a fan of this. I tend go the other way in prefering titles with more information. In this scheme, this album (http://vgmdb.net/album/16112) would just be titled "Rose Crimson."

Well, if you have the full title as an alternate it's still visible and searchable. Or maybe some compromise could be made, like the 'name' title could be entered as another title and an additional option could be made to have it displayed, but I could see that ending up with a lot of redundant information (long title romanized, long title original, long title translation, short title romanized, short title original, short title translation, etc.) Unless there was some way to distinguish between the two (like setting a prefix and suffix for album titles that would be shown or not based on options. so for instance that album would have a prefix of "TV Animation "Umineko no Naku Koro ni" Original Soundtrack ~" name of "Rose Crimson" and suffix of "~".) Either way is a little convoluted, so I don't know.

[seanne]

another thing to bring up is the addition of (Limited Edition) and (iTunes) extensions to the titles, which we can also generate.

I think this would make things look a lot better as well.

[Dag]

Speaking of auto-generation, another thing to bring up is the addition of (Limited Edition) and (iTunes) extensions to the titles, which we can also generate.Nice, I suggest "Digital" or an icon like reprints instead, iTunes being just a vendor.

It looks like most agree with this standardization, and I like it to. The only thing I'd add is that it can be superseded by what's on the cover/obi (for example, if they offset a subtitle by enclosing it in tildes or dashes).I'd add that care should be taken not to add gratuitious separators since it's now always clear. Ex.- this (http://vgmdb.net/album/887), some write it as "Shadow Hearts: From the New World" but the official spelling is the whole thing without the separator.

I wanted to bring this forward to see what people thought about it. In some ways it might be cleaner, but it presents the user with more fields, so as an interface I'm not sure I like it. On the back end, these titles are all stored in the same text field in the database, so this also raises the question about whether those should be split out as well (they don't have to be.)Well, it could stiill be displayed to the users like it is now. Not a big deal but I just think this being an info site it'd be better to somehow differentiate user-generated titles from official/printed ones (regardless of language), for archiving purposes.

[Cedille]

I really don't know what was discussed in the past so it could have been already considered (yet killed), but isn't it bad to have a dedicated line to edit capitalization and whatnot? Another justification for this is given by the necessity of keeping the album names (especially from the same series) consistent, something we already do for the catalog numbers. The current display line might have been designed for this purpose, but I think we tend to avoid having two lines where only the difference is capitalizing variation and delete one of them (and to begin with, I myself would replace one of them with the Japanese). I also prefer we redefine the Original line, because we more often than not add the Japanese title to this line, while it's not clear that the Japanese is the original.

Display: Write whatever but be consistent with other entries.
English: Write the title in English. No discretion if printed on the cover.
Japanese: Write the title in Japanese. No discretion if printed on the cover.
Romaji: Romanize the title. No discretion if printed on the cover.
Alternate: Write something useful for searching (e.g. Western game name).

In case people feel uncomfortable with five lines, we can hide some lines at each album page (English is likely). This may look too complex, but in fact, we've already been submitting the Organizations in a similar way and the artist also has the Kanji and Hiragana fields. The biggest obstacle, however, is much time and energy to optimize the existing 18k albums.

[Ira]

Another justification for this is given by the necessity of keeping the album names (especially from the same series) consistent, something we already do for the catalog numbers.

Consistent with the information given by the publisher or consistent with some sort of guideline?

[Cedille]

I totally forgot that the titles of some releases were given in other languages (French, German, Korean and more), so it can be up to six lines.

Consistent with the information given by the publisher or consistent with some sort of guideline?

Perhaps, both?

[Ira]

Perhaps titles could be made a bit more flexible by separating each title into their own div composed of a text field for language (or drop down) and text field for the title, and by allowing titles to be dynamically added and removed so only as many as necessary would be on the edit page. A check or radio button could be used to mark one of the titles as original. This would make things a little more flexible as said and perhaps a bit clearer for some.

Perhaps, both?
Well, having guidelines around formatting and being consistent with publisher information usually don't go hand in hand. But I'm not really 100% clear on what you have in mind.

[Cedille]

Well, having guidelines around formatting and being consistent with publisher information usually don't go hand in hand. But I'm not really 100% clear on what you have in mind.
Um, I also might be not sure about your question, but I thought we could be both faithful to what publishers provided on the covers in one line and consistent with the way we sorted albums out in another line, and there are indeed some entries where the almost only difference between the display and original lines is capitalization (like this (http://vgmdb.net/album/4593)).

[Secret Squirrel]

I've made the proposed changes to the title submission instructions, and updated the first post.

It looks like we're mostly discussing an overhaul of the multiple title system.

[Ira]

Um, I also might be not sure about your question, but I thought we could be both faithful to what publishers provided on the covers in one line and consistent with the way we sorted albums out in another line, and there are indeed some entries where the almost only difference between the display and original lines is capitalization (like this (http://vgmdb.net/album/4593)).

I don't see how that would help much given that sorting is case insensitive, as is searching.

[Cedille]

I don't see how that would help much given that sorting is case insensitive, as is searching.
I didn't explicitly mention it but capitalization wasn't the only discretion. It can happen, as a result of following the cover front, that only one album is attached with the prefix that aren't shared by the subsequent releases (e.g. only the first installment (http://vgmdb.net/album/12904) of anime TotA Drama albums has 'TV animation' prefix on the front cover). In this case, we can keep the display titles of all the four albums consistent for sorting and searching, while leaving what's actually printed in another line for accuracy. I know this thread is for the guideline planning, not my suggestion of my ideal VGMdb, so perhaps I should have focused on what's the possible best under the current system.

One thing I still don't quite understand is what's seen as the 'original', especially when both English and Japanese are printed (like this (http://vgmdb.net/db/covers.php?do=view&cover=70835)).

[Kaleb.G]

For the title colon thing. I assume we're going with a "Main Title: Sub Title 1 / Sub Title 2" format and not a "Main Title : Sub Title 1 / Sub Title 2" format; correct?

[Secret Squirrel]

Yeah, I only put the extra space in so that it wouldn't turn into a smiley in vB code.

[Secret Squirrel]

Okay, the [Limited Edition] tag is implemented, and I've eliminated most redundancies. There are still some oddities that we'll have to figure out, like this. (http://vgmdb.net/album/17637) Also, if Limited Edition is part of the title, it should remain even though the tag will be redundant.

The nice thing about this is, now we can decide on a format. I just went with [Limited Edition], but we can change it.

Also, this should help us ferret out some of the locations that aren't using the new album classes. If you see anywhere that's not appending the tag, please point them out.

[Myrkul]

Nice thing SS.

Should we remove the "limited edition" titles from the previous entries?
Like this one (http://vgmdb.net/album/5932).. have limited edition twice on the title now

[Gigablah]

Yeah, those need to be fixed.

[Secret Squirrel]

I left them on a few titles, where it was apparent that "Limited Edition" was actually mentioned on the cover, or where it wasn't clear. The remaining ones are these:

http://vgmdb.net/search?do=results&id=56292

which should be discussed.

[seanne]

Could the tag be made so that it's clear that it is actually a tag and not part of the album name? Maybe the event tag would look good?

[Secret Squirrel]

Well, it might be able to be done, but the title is used in a variety of different locations with differing styles, so it would have to be the right form and size that it works in all of them, from the big titles on the album pages to the medium titles in the search results, to the little titles in Related Albums.

[Kaleb.G]

OK, after seeing some of the album title submissions for a couple Castlevania albums, I'd like to propose the following:

"As little user intervention in changing the titles as possible to present suitable English and Japanese titles."

If an album lists both an English and Japanese title, use those for Display and Original respectively (e.g. Castlevania Circle of the Moon & Castlevania Concerto of Midnight Sun Original Soundtrack). Don't go making up some new translation.

In the case of Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow & Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow Original Soundtrack, the Romaji title is not suitable for the Display title. The official English game titles are most suitable. Think about it for a minute...

We have two main types of people coming here, English-speaking people who are familiar with the English titles of the games they've played, and Japanese users who are searching with Japanese characters. For the few weeaboos who want to see Romaji titles all over, we already have an option for that. They aren't entirely reliable to be searched on anyway due to the subtle differences in how many things are Romanized.

What are your thoughts?

[Kaleb.G]

Oh, and by the way, I'm now finding myself agreeing with you on the use of artist names in album titles in a way, simply because I find that when physically organizing* my non-game albums by Lu7, Hiroki Kikuta, etc., it makes more sense to me to have them grouped by artist rather than album title alone. Of course, this is specifically for "Original Works" albums.

*as in: on my shelf

[Secret Squirrel]

OK, after seeing some of the album title submissions for a couple Castlevania albums, I'd like to propose the following:

"As little user intervention in changing the titles as possible to present suitable English and Japanese titles."

If an album lists both an English and Japanese title, use those for Display and Original respectively (e.g. Castlevania Circle of the Moon & Castlevania Concerto of Midnight Sun Original Soundtrack). Don't go making up some new translation.

In the case of Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow & Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow Original Soundtrack, the Romaji title is not suitable for the Display title. The official English game titles are most suitable. Think about it for a minute...

We have two main types of people coming here, English-speaking people who are familiar with the English titles of the games they've played, and Japanese users who are searching with Japanese characters. For the few weeaboos who want to see Romaji titles all over, we already have an option for that. They aren't entirely reliable to be searched on anyway due to the subtle differences in how many things are Romanized.

What are your thoughts?

Doesn't this fall under "Don't submit a literal translation of a game's name if it differs from the official English game name,"?

[seanne]

OK, after seeing some of the album title submissions for a couple Castlevania albums, I'd like to propose the following:

"As little user intervention in changing the titles as possible to present suitable English and Japanese titles."

If an album lists both an English and Japanese title, use those for Display and Original respectively (e.g. Castlevania Circle of the Moon & Castlevania Concerto of Midnight Sun Original Soundtrack). Don't go making up some new translation.

I tend to agree with this. I generally think we should only go with a romanization of the original title as the display title in cases where the original and localized titles are completely different (e.g. Sekaiju no MeiQ / Etrian Odyssey). Problem with the Castlevania series though is that while some titles are more or less literal translations there are others that differ entirely.

So it can become a question of either going with what the album is undeniably called, or what 'would make people recognize it easier'.

[Secret Squirrel]

I thought I'd put together a kind of decision tree to help describe what we seem to be talking about with respect to titles. The idea here is that what goes into each title is prioritized. This isn't a final prioritization, but I think it follows what is being discussed here (please correct me if I missed something.)


Display
English title that appears on Front Cover (or Obi) with game name corrected if official game name differs, and other minor corrections permitted.
English localized game title + best translation of the rest of the title, if the game has an official English equivalent.
Romanized game title + best translation of the rest of the title, if there is no official English title for the game.

Original
Album name in album's native language exactly as it appears on Front (or Obi).
If everything is English, Album title as it appears on Front (or Obi) with no correction, unless this is the same as the Display title.
Otherwise, leave blank.

Romanized
Official romanization of Asian titles (doesn't have to conform to VGMdb's romanization scheme).
Best full romanization of Asian titles if one is not available (conforms to VGMdb's romanization scheme).
If nothing to romanize, or if Display title is already romanized, leave blank.

Alternate
English localized game title + best translation of the rest of the title, if this was not included as Display title.
Uncorrected English title that appears on Front Cover if it differs from Display, and if a Japanese title was used in Original.
Japanese official title for a Japanese works released with only English titles on the album. (for serachability)
Fan translation of Game Title + best translation of the rest of the title, for those albums for which it is appropriate.
Can be blank if none are needed.



I think the major change I added here is the idea that Original should be the title as it actually appears regardless of language. This means that there are plenty of Japanese titles that will need to be moved to Alternate.

The main difference then is that we can fix some things in Display, but Original should be exactly what's on the cover (and with the Japanese taking precedence there.)

[Myrkul]

Looking great so far SS.
I am agree with this proposal.

What if a game have a different title in the USA & Europe ?
I don't have much examples in mind, but here's come one (currently not in the database, again this is an example)
新創世紀ラグナセンティ is a cute RPG on megadrive
it can be romanized as Shin Souseiki Ragnacenty
US version is Crusader of Centy
EU version is Soleil

i bet US will prime.. but this is debatable.. ;)

[Ira]

...
You seem to be emphasizing the use of only what's printed on the album, but didn't you say that at least trademarks should be based on how the publisher prints it elsewhere (because of stylistic variations?) And because I'm pushy about these things, Why only trademarks? If the publisher prints the title a different way (consistently) online/elsewhere can't that be assumed to be the correct title and the one printed on the album a stylistic one?

[Kaleb.G]

* Display
1. English title that appears on Front Cover (or Obi) with game name corrected if official game name differs, and other minor corrections permitted.
2. English localized game title + best translation of the rest of the title, if the game has an official English equivalent.
3. Romanized game title + best translation of the rest of the title, if there is no official English title for the game.
* Original
1. Album name in album's native language exactly as it appears on Front (or Obi).
2. If everything is English, Album title as it appears on Front (or Obi) with no correction, unless this is the same as the Display title.
3. Otherwise, leave blank.
* Romanized
1. Official romanization of Asian titles (doesn't have to conform to VGMdb's romanization scheme).
2. Best full romanization of Asian titles if one is not available (conforms to VGMdb's romanization scheme).
3. If nothing to romanize, or if Display title is already romanized, leave blank.
* Alternate
o English localized game title + best translation of the rest of the title, if this was not included as Display title.
o Uncorrected English title that appears on Front Cover if it differs from Display, and if a Japanese title was used in Original.
o Japanese official title for a Japanese works released with only English titles on the album. (for serachability)
o Fan translation of Game Title + best translation of the rest of the title, for those albums for which it is appropriate.
o Can be blank if none are needed.

I like this very much, and I agree this is how we should proceed.

The only thing I had an issue with previously is the corrections in Display #1, but that also contradicts the point I had about English speakers searching for album titles by the English game titles. I now take it back, and concede to what you have proposed.

You seem to be emphasizing the use of only what's printed on the album, but didn't you say that at least trademarks should be based on how the publisher prints it elsewhere (because of stylistic variations?) And because I'm pushy about these things, Why only trademarks? If the publisher prints the title a different way (consistently) online/elsewhere can't that be assumed to be the correct title and the one printed on the album a stylistic one?
Which title are you referring to though? In the case of Display #1, SS said that it would have the "game name corrected if official game name differs, and other minor corrections permitted". Essentially, the Display name is going to make the album as easily recognizable for English speakers as possible.

What if a game have a different title in the USA & Europe ?
My opinion is we should go with the title of the first chronological English publication.

[Cedille]

Is it preferable to edit the albums where the artist name is added in a different way than the front cover and spine or our [.../ Artist] format? (like this (http://vgmdb.net/album/5623), unless I'm missing something). Or if the form is provided by the official site or such, leave it? (like how this album (http://vgmdb.net/album/4724) is presented on the official site (http://www.square-enix.co.jp/music/sem/page/vielendank/)). I know this is also our discretion, though.

I think the major change I added here is the idea that Display should be the title as it actually appears regardless of language.

You mean, Original？

[Secret Squirrel]

You seem to be emphasizing the use of only what's printed on the album, but didn't you say that at least trademarks should be based on how the publisher prints it elsewhere (because of stylistic variations?) And because I'm pushy about these things, Why only trademarks? If the publisher prints the title a different way (consistently) online/elsewhere can't that be assumed to be the correct title and the one printed on the album a stylistic one?

Where would you place those in this hierarchy? (note that there might be both English and Japanese titles from the official website)

Is it preferable to edit the albums where the artist name is added in a different way than the front cover and spine or our [.../ Artist] format? (like this (http://vgmdb.net/album/5623), unless I'm missing something).

We could edit them, but I don't expect it's mandatory. If more people change their minds, we could end up going with [ Artist / ] as the standard instead. Note though that album is actually [ / Artist ] on the spine.

You mean, Original？

Oops, i'd better fix that.

[Kaleb.G]

We could edit them, but I don't expect it's mandatory. If more people change their minds, we could end up going with [ Artist / ] as the standard instead. Note though that album is actually [ / Artist ] on the spine.
I agree we should have a standardized format (I don't care what it is), but my feeling is that it should only be applied to the Display field if the Original title order is different.

Well, the format allows them. The question is whether to include a literal translation (Cross of the Blue Moon) of the Japanese game simply because an album-ripping group chose to release it like that.
Continuing off the Aria/Dawn of Sorrow thread... What do you say about a review site (http://www.rpgfan.com/soundtracks/cv-sorrow/index.html) that uses the title? I'm just trying to decide what criteria we can use to determine whether a fan translation is suitable enough to be included as an Alternate title.

P.S. This (http://www.squareenixmusic.com/albums/d/draculaminuetdawn.shtml) and this (http://www.chudahs-corner.com/soundtracks/index.php?catalog=LC-1453~54).

[Secret Squirrel]

I bet we could talk Ramza and Chris into changing those titles. I think that VGMdb's role should be fixing these issues, rather than supporting them.

[seanne]

If everything is English, Album title as it appears on Front (or Obi) with no correction, unless this is the same as the Display title.

Does this include only partial all caps titles, or ones where everything is in caps as well?

Fan translation of Game Title + best translation of the rest of the title, for those albums for which it is appropriate.

I think we should use this in very few cases, and only if the game is unreleased in English. I'm thinking cases where a game is fan translated and then becomes popular. Cave Story (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_story) is a good example of what I mean.

Well, the format allows them. The question is whether to include a literal translation (Cross of the Blue Moon) of the Japanese game simply because an album-ripping group chose to release it like that.

It doesn't make a lot of sense, no. If we add the literal translation for this album we should do it for every applicable album. Basically, if someone wants to know he can ask in the thread.

[The Gambler]

I personally am against changing the english title translation often found in the soundtracks with official game's names for the display field.

Moreover, I think it's a bit contradicting with the spirit that's used elsewhere. I've seen rejected some corrections to the tracklist when the error was blatant. That, to adhere to the principle "let's stay with what's printed on the cover at all costs".

Now I see that titles that already have an english translation in the actual CDs are disregarded in favor of translations taken from the games, perhaps in an effort to ease the search function. Although I must say, I am against this. I would prefer to stay close to the original cd source for a variety of reasons, and I must add that the search function looks into several sub fields already, so the search is quite extended. That, and I really cannot imagine someone looking for a Castlevania CD that doesn't also think to try a search for the word "Dracula".

Edit: in other words, I prefer Original / Romanized criteria over the one labeled as "Display" in Squirrel's above post.

[Secret Squirrel]

I personally am against changing the english title translation often found in the soundtracks with official game's names for the display field.

Moreover, I think it's a bit contradicting with the spirit that's used elsewhere. I've seen rejected some corrections to the tracklist when the error was blatant. That, to adhere to the principle "let's stay with what's printed on the cover at all costs".

Now I see that titles that already have an english translation in the actual CDs are disregarded in favor of translations taken from the games, perhaps in an effort to ease the search function. Although I must say, I am against this. I would prefer to stay close to the original cd source for a variety of reasons, and I must add that the search function looks into several sub fields already, so the search is quite extended. That, and I really cannot imagine someone looking for a Castlevania CD that doesn't also think to try a search for the word "Dracula".

Edit: in other words, I prefer Original / Romanized criteria over the one labeled as "Display" in Squirrel's above post.

Those numbered items are in order of priority, so the first choice for the Display title is any English title printed on the cover/obi. We only fall back to English Game name for the Display title when there is no english text on the album. We preserve the title as displayed, but there are some things to be fixed. For example:

http://vgmdb.net/db/covers.php?do=view&cover=9409

I don't think we'd want to call this AKUMAJO DRACURA BEST as the display title, when we know it's Dracula. This could go as an alternate in Line 4.

About the inconsistencies, this goal of this whole process is to work through them and fix them. Everything will be considered, and it means that some policies might be changed.

[The Gambler]

We only fall back to English Game name for the Display title when there is no english text on the album.

Oh ok, but the last couple of changes weren't into that direction. There's english text for LC1453-54 http://vgmdb.net/db/covers.php?do=view&cover=30898

Does the search function works for all the four lines?

I also think that, for display line, romanization is better than fanmade/unofficial translation. Example: Mokushiroku > Apocalypse, Ubawareta Kokuin > Stolen Seal.

The only thing that prevents me from applying these changes myself is that it seems were not 100% sure about the criteria to follow.

[The Gambler]

Another interesting case to take into consideration is when we have romanization AND official english text on the album, and we should choose.

Examples: KMCA 104-5.

We can go for "Nendaiki" or "Chronicle" - they are both correct. ("Chronicles" plural would be incorrect: it's the western term used for the game). Which one should prevail, romanization or english text? In this case it doesn't matter much, but in this other case:

KMCA-162

Here we have a romanization that would suggest to use in display "Akumajo Dracula Circle of the Moon" and an english text that says "Castlevania Circle of the Moon". Akumajo Dracula and Castlevania have been declared equal, so we could go with the english text; however, since the series went under a process of brand renaming in Japan with Harmony of Dissonance, we have that title which is correctly called Castlevania in both texts.
In this case, it would probably be better to use the romanization, to underline the fact that in its original Japanese text one game is presented as "Akumajo Dracula", while the other is presented as "Castlevania".

(please note that while this doubt concerns KMCA-162, it doesn't concern LC-1453, because the english text in that cd does reflect the Japanese original text better).

[Cedille]

Best full romanization of Asian titles if one is not available (conforms to VGMdb's romanization scheme).

Is this scheme finalized? All what I know is to avoid macron and keep particles lower case, and pretty much everything else varies depending on each submitters (in my case, it's varies from day to day, as I suck at this :tpg:)


Official romanization of Asian titles (doesn't have to conform to VGMdb's romanization scheme).

And does this mean macron is allowed?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/be/OkamiNTSCcoverFinal.jpg/250px-OkamiNTSCcoverFinal.jpg

[Ira]

Where would you place those in this hierarchy? (note that there might be both English and Japanese titles from the official website)

I think if the title listed on online is different what's from printed on the album (and is used consistently,) that the title should take priority as the original title. As for both Japanese and English being on the official site, well we have the same thing with album covers, it should be treated in the same manner (usually Japanese title as original and English as display.) The exception I'd make is if the Japanese title is simply a reading of the English title then it shouldn't be included or it should be set as an alternate for searchability (unless the reading is also on the album cover as part of the title.) And hell, there's also weird cases like Sphere Caliber where it's printed 'Sphere Calibar' on the album and 'Sphere Caliber' on the site, I assume the error was corrected after the albums had already been printed so it was a bit too late to fix, but the site was at least fixed (most shops also list it as caliber.) But I digress, my position is as I said before. My only point to add is that there's some weird cases where discretion is needed on part of the editor.

[Ira]

Also I'm not sure if this has been touched on, but when romanizing titles I think proper casing should be used unless it's explicitly written in an alternate way (glorious upper case etc.)

[Kaleb.G]

I'm beginning to think it would be easier to have separate fields for all these different types of titles (e.g. "English Original", "Japanese Original", "English Original Substituting Official Game Titles", "Romanized", and so on), and then have the display field selected programmatically and based on user options.

[Secret Squirrel]

Oh ok, but the last couple of changes weren't into that direction. There's english text for LC1453-54 http://vgmdb.net/db/covers.php?do=view&cover=30898

Yeah, that one is my fault. At that time, it didn't seem like it made sense to follow that romanization.

Does the search function works for all the four lines?

Yeah, it searches all of them.

I also think that, for display line, romanization is better than fanmade/unofficial translation. Example: Mokushiroku > Apocalypse, Ubawareta Kokuin > Stolen Seal.

I agree with that too, because they are just fan translations.

KMCA-162

By these new guidelines, the 1st and 4th line would be swapped.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/be/OkamiNTSCcoverFinal.jpg/250px-OkamiNTSCcoverFinal.jpg

I forgot about this one. It turns out that the macron is part of the official title in English, so technically we should include it everywhere. I think the European accented characters are part of the latin character set, though I think we have a precedent of exchanging ß for ss.

[Secret Squirrel]

I think if the title listed on online is different what's from printed on the album (and is used consistently,) that the title should take priority as the original title. As for both Japanese and English being on the official site, well we have the same thing with album covers, it should be treated in the same manner (usually Japanese title as original and English as display.) The exception I'd make is if the Japanese title is simply a reading of the English title then it shouldn't be included or it should be set as an alternate for searchability (unless the reading is also on the album cover as part of the title.) And hell, there's also weird cases like Sphere Caliber where it's printed 'Sphere Calibar' on the album and 'Sphere Caliber' on the site, I assume the error was corrected after the albums had already been printed so it was a bit too late to fix, but the site was at least fixed (most shops also list it as caliber.) But I digress, my position is as I said before. My only point to add is that there's some weird cases where discretion is needed on part of the editor.

The display title (as worded above) allows for some amount of correction, so this could fall under that. I take it though that you want to change it to explicitly use the official website instead of the cover/obi as the primary source.

Anyway, some examples would be helpful to illustrate. How would you title this album as it appears on Lantis' site. (http://www.lantis.jp/new-release/data.php?id=1bff1b662c8796e03dd4d6aff7d35761)

Compare to our entry here. (http://vgmdb.net/album/17593)

(Note, this may be a trick question, in that it's debatable whether Lantis is actually trying to communicate a title here. Their format looks more like Platform Category "Game" / Classification. Still, it's what we've got)

One other point: quite a few albums -- possibly the majority -- don't have an official mention on a current publisher's webpage.

I'd be curious to see some more examples. I'm not against it, and there have been times that I liked the title on the official site better (especially when it was more descriptive), but I don't know where to fit this in, generally.

I'm beginning to think it would be easier to have separate fields for all these different types of titles (e.g. "English Original", "Japanese Original", "English Original Substituting Official Game Titles", "Romanized", and so on), and then have the display field selected programmatically and based on user options.

I think that would complicate things more (though I said that recently about tracklist titles.)

Two things that concern me:


With all of these different titles to consider, we might have some albums with too many titles. I think if we get beyond 4, it starts to get too cluttered.
By applying a rigid set of rules, we might be forced into some titles that just don't look right. So if you find an example that would be out of whack, make sure to post it here so we can consider things.

[Kaleb.G]

I think that would complicate things more (though I said that recently about tracklist titles.
Well, if everyone can agree with the hierarchy you proposed, we shouldn't need it. I just think there is still some discord for some people. I personally feel things are fine just as you've proposed. And for the people who prefer the Original or Romanized titles, we have options for them.

All that is to be ironed out in the hierarchy now is how things like capitalization and title sourcing (from where we should take certain titles; e.g. publisher's site, obi, etc.) should be handled.

Small topic: When I changed the title for the Aria/Dawn of Sorrow OST, I had no idea that it actually had the Romanized title printed on the spine (thus again, making me contradict the point I initially made about the Circle of the Moon OST). In this case, would we list this title only under the Romanized title section rather than in the Alternate title section?

I agree with that too, because they are just fan translations.
I think my only support for fan translations over Romanizations is the fact that a large majority of our tracklists are handled this way (and thank God, too).

[Ira]

I take it though that you want to change it to explicitly use the official website instead of the cover/obi as the primary source.
If it is available and that title is used consistently by other sources (shops, etc.), yes.

Anyway, some examples would be helpful to illustrate. How would you title this album as it appears on Lantis' site. (http://www.lantis.jp/new-release/data.php?id=1bff1b662c8796e03dd4d6aff7d35761)

Compare to our entry here. (http://vgmdb.net/album/17593)

(Note, this may be a trick question, in that it's debatable whether Lantis is actually trying to communicate a title here. Their format looks more like Platform Category "Game" / Classification. Still, it's what we've got)

Yeah, that's an odd case, but "TVアニメ『キミキス pure rouge』 キャラクターソングアルバム" seems to be the title. This is also what shops list it as. For instance see: rakuten (http://books.rakuten.co.jp/rb/item/5049769/), Amazon (http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%82%AD%E3%83%9F%E3%82%AD%E3%82%B9-pure-rouge-%E3%82%AD%E3%83%A3%E3%83%A9%E3%82%AF%E3%82%BF%E3%8 3%BC%E3%82%BD%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B0%E3%82%A2%E3%83%AB% E3%83%90%E3%83%A0-TV%E3%82%B5%E3%83%B3%E3%83%88%E3%83%A9/dp/B000XQV1WM), iTunes (http://itunes.apple.com/jp/album/id293896844), etc.

Edit: also this search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22TV%E3%82%A2%E3%83%8B%E3%83%A1%E3%80%8E%E3%82% AD%E3%83%9F%E3%82%AD%E3%82%B9%2Bpure%2Brouge%E3%80 %8F%2B%E3%82%AD%E3%83%A3%E3%83%A9%E3%82%AF%E3%82%B F%E3%83%BC%E3%82%BD%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B0%E3%82%A2%E3% 83%AB%E3%83%90%E3%83%A0%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=) for that title gives 104 results whereas searching for the title in the database (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22%E3%82%AD%E3%83%9F%E3%82%AD%E3%82%B9+%E3%82%A D%E3%83%A3%E3%83%A9%E3%82%AF%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC%E3% 82%BD%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B0%E3%82%A2%E3%83%AB%E3%83%90 %E3%83%A0%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=) gives us 14 results (both result counts are without omitted results.)

I'd be curious to see some more examples.
I can't think of too many off the top of my head, they're out there however (you presented one more.)

I forgot about this one. It turns out that the macron is part of the official title in English, so technically we should include it everywhere. I think the European accented characters are part of the latin character set, though I think we have a precedent of exchanging ß for ss.
Problem here is it hurts searchability, unless the title without the macron is included as an alternate.

[Secret Squirrel]

Yeah, that's an odd case, but "TVアニメ『キミキス pure rouge』 キャラクターソングアルバム" seems to be the title. This is also what shops list it as. For instance see: rakuten (http://books.rakuten.co.jp/rb/item/5049769/), Amazon (http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%82%AD%E3%83%9F%E3%82%AD%E3%82%B9-pure-rouge-%E3%82%AD%E3%83%A3%E3%83%A9%E3%82%AF%E3%82%BF%E3%8 3%BC%E3%82%BD%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B0%E3%82%A2%E3%83%AB% E3%83%90%E3%83%A0-TV%E3%82%B5%E3%83%B3%E3%83%88%E3%83%A9/dp/B000XQV1WM), iTunes (http://itunes.apple.com/jp/album/id293896844), etc.

Following that example:

Here's another. (http://www.lantis.jp/new-release/data.php?id=9f9d4e513870608f0cd89a93204118a5) Character Song & Drama CD vs Character File.

Here is (http://www.lantis.jp/new-release/data.php?id=09df3930ce7438370e6aa7dc8db4649d) a TV Anime "D.C.~Da Capo~" Hatsunejima Best: D.C. ~Da Capo~ Best Selection.

This one is (http://www.lantis.jp/new-release/data.php?id=293710b8612027aa9821e8349838ad2d) an ... Original Soundtrack Original Soundtrack.

I wonder if we should go with the wording "Best choice of [Front Cover, Side, Obi, Website]", and leave it up to discretion, since no single one manages to work for all cases.


Problem here is it hurts searchability, unless the title without the macron is included as an alternate.

It's fine because the character set we are using allows searches with or without the macrons. Try searching on Ōkami and see. (Probably not fine for ß)

[Ira]

I wonder if we should go with the wording "Best choice of [Front Cover, Side, Obi, Website]", and leave it up to discretion, since no single one manages to work for all cases.

That's basically what I've been trying to say. Go with what makes the most sense. And yeah, a lot of the ones you mentioned are awkward, but I'd probably check what product name the publishers provided vendors and at least offer it as an alternate title to increase searchability (this isn't always going to be consistent I know, but I usually try and go with what's most used.)

It's fine because the character set we are using allows searches with or without the macrons. Try searching on Ōkami and see. (Probably not fine for ß)

Ah, well that simplifies things then.

[Secret Squirrel]

Small topic: When I changed the title for the Aria/Dawn of Sorrow OST, I had no idea that it actually had the Romanized title printed on the spine (thus again, making me contradict the point I initially made about the Circle of the Moon OST). In this case, would we list this title only under the Romanized title section rather than in the Alternate title section?

Generally I'd say yes, though I think that romanization qualifies as the Display title according to the hierarchy rule candidate, since it's the only English text on the album. I don't know if this is acceptable or if we need to rework it.

I think my only support for fan translations over Romanizations is the fact that a large majority of our tracklists are handled this way (and thank God, too).

We're only talking about Romanizing game names (particularly those that were never localized to the West), because we consider them proper names.

Tracklists get translated, but we still Romanize names in them. 東京 becomes Tokyo, not Eastern Capital (which we could get by translating the kanji one-by-one.)

[Cedille]

but I'd probably check what product name the publishers provided vendors and at least offer it as an alternate title to increase searchability (this isn't always going to be consistent I know, but I usually try and go with what's most used.)

So could you determine what's the official and best capitalization of kimikiss and amagami? :(

[Ira]

So could you determine what's the official and best capitalization of kimikiss and amagami? :(

Hmm, for kimikiss everywhere I've seen it written on the official site (http://www.enterbrain.co.jp/game_site/kimikiss/index.html) has it written in all lower case (and there's one CD with an english title that backs this up.) However, the (official) english manga (http://www.tokyopop.com/product/2752/KimiKiss/) has it written as "KimiKiss". I'd stick with "kimikiss" myself. Amagami seems to be written in proper case on the official website (http://www.amagami.info/index.html), so "Amagami" seems like a safe bet.

[Cedille]

Hmm, for kimikiss everywhere I've seen it written on the official site (http://www.enterbrain.co.jp/game_site/kimikiss/index.html) has it written in all lower case (and there's one CD with an english title that backs this up.) However, the (official) english manga (http://www.tokyopop.com/product/2752/KimiKiss/) has it written as "KimiKiss".
What's written on the game official site (http://www.enterbrain.co.jp/game_site/kimikiss/) looks like KimiKiSS to me :( Perhaps it requires some knowledge of font or such to determine it, and I tend to suck at this. As much as I prefer to keep the game name on the display title consistent (and that may be what 'correction' means) anyway, I feel it's sometimes hard, or even subjective to determine what's the official game name, especially when the capitalization is concerned.

This album (http://vgmdb.net/db/covers.php?do=view&cover=18437) is another case where I can't break the capitalization that well.

[Ira]

What's written on the game official site (http://www.enterbrain.co.jp/game_site/kimikiss/) looks like KimiKiSS to me :( Perhaps it requires some knowledge of font or such to determine it, and I tend to suck at this. As much as I prefer to keep the game name on the display title consistent (and that may be what 'correction' means) anyway, I feel it's sometimes hard, or even subjective to determine what's the official game name, especially when the capitalization is concerned. This album (This is another case I can't break the capitalization.

Well, I was unsure about the way the S was printed myself, but the album with the name in the title supports it being lower case. And yes, basing stuff of stylistic printing is always tricky, which is why I prefer trying to get the product name online to begin with. If only more publishers would make that information available.

[seanne]

I think if the title listed on online is different what's from printed on the album (and is used consistently,) that the title should take priority as the original title.

The problem with this is that official sites and vendors often use descriptive titles that aren't necessarily part of the album title. For example:

TVアニメ『キミキス pure rouge』 <- Platform 『Game Name』

キャラクターソングアルバム <- Album Title, without Game Name

Basically, official sites and vendors don't always provide correct information, as given on the album packaging. Both titles, tracklists and other information can be wrong since they don't necessarily have the same quality control (and anal-ness) we do - additionally information can be put up on sites before the album is finalized, and then never corrected.

It just seems illogical to follow such 'third-party' information ahead of what the album actually gives us.

When we have products up though, and when it comes to choosing how to display the name for a given product, then I think we can use the official site and such to determine what would be most fitting.

[Ira]

The problem with this is that official sites and vendors often use descriptive titles that aren't necessarily part of the album title. For example:

TVアニメ『キミキス pure rouge』 <- Platform 『Game Name』

キャラクターソングアルバム <- Album Title, without Game Name

Basically, official sites and vendors don't always provide correct information, as given on the album packaging. Both titles, tracklists and other information can be wrong since they don't necessarily have the same quality control (and anal-ness) we do - additionally information can be put up on sites before the album is finalized, and then never corrected.

It just seems illogical to follow such 'third-party' information ahead of what the album actually gives us.

When we have products up though, and when it comes to choosing how to display the name for a given product, then I think we can use the official site and such to determine what would be most fitting.

And album covers aren't always correct because they're often presented in a stylistic manner which doesn't reflect the actual title. There's always a margin of error no matter what source you use. I'm also not sure how you can determine which is correct or not, do you have some source I'm not aware of?

[seanne]

And album covers aren't always correct because they're often presented in a stylistic manner which doesn't reflect the actual title. There's always a margin of error no matter what source you use. I'm also not sure how you can determine which is correct or not, do you have some source I'm not aware of?

Well the album is correct since that's what the entry is supposed to be reflecting. Similarly a tracklist typo is still correct if that's what the album gives us. Typically either the obi or spines will give the most correct album title.

The order of priority we've been using:

1. obi/spines
2. other parts of the album packaging <- if no obi/spine info is available
3. official sites, vendors, release lists, fan sites (etc) listing the album <- if no scan/physical album info is available. can often be considered "better than nothing" or "for the time being" since it may be; based on non-final info, merely of a descriptive nature (we see this on release lists a lot), not otherwise a reflection of 1 or 2.

[Cedille]

I'd rather think this is Front vs Obi/Spine/etc. rather than Front vs websites. TV anime "Kimikiss pure rouge" is printed on the Obi, and possibly somewhere else (like the spine) and I assume the official site and vendors were based on such.

http://thumbnail.image.rakuten.co.jp/@0_mall/otrp/cabinet/item/99032904.jpg

And yes, basing stuff of stylistic printing is always tricky, which is why I prefer trying to get the product name online to begin with. If only more publishers would make that information available.

And "Amagami" on the official site also can just be one stylistic form :( Personally, if "amagami" is consistently printed on the albums, I'd go with it, but it's of course my preference.

[Secret Squirrel]

I chose KimiKiss Character Song Album as an example, because all of those sites miss the "*" that is clearly on the cover, and which we've included on our title.

[Ira]

Well the album is correct since that's what the entry is supposed to be reflecting. Similarly a tracklist typo is still correct if that's what the album gives us. Typically either the obi or spines will give the most correct album title.
...
3. official sites, vendors, release lists, fan sites (etc) listing the album <- if no scan/physical album info is available. can often be considered "better than nothing" or "for the time being" since it may be; based on non-final info, merely of a descriptive nature (we see this on release lists a lot), not otherwise a reflection of 1 or 2.

Let me repeat what you've been ignoring: package design can be just as flawed. You even made a point of this yourself with track lists, if the error is corrected by the publisher (that is to say they officially make note of it) but not fixed on the packaging then the packaging is in error. I repeat, packaging is not flawless and it should not be treated as such. This is why I'm trying to advocate against total reliance on what is printed on the album. But, in this case it's not even an issue with that, it's just not printed on the front.

[Gigablah]

Hmm, for kimikiss everywhere I've seen it written on the official site (http://www.enterbrain.co.jp/game_site/kimikiss/index.html) has it written in all lower case (and there's one CD with an english title that backs this up.) However, the (official) english manga (http://www.tokyopop.com/product/2752/KimiKiss/) has it written as "KimiKiss". I'd stick with "kimikiss" myself. Amagami seems to be written in proper case on the official website (http://www.amagami.info/index.html), so "Amagami" seems like a safe bet.

Something to watch out for, neither title seems to be explicitly transcribed on their respective websites (i.e. written in ASCII) -- so what you're looking at are also potentially stylized images. (I guess Cedille already mentioned that)

What if we use this guideline: Use the title verbatim if it's printed in clearly discernable Latin font (anywhere on the package, priority going to the cover and the obi); if it's a stylized font or logo graphic, use what's closest to an "official" transcription. Even if the album version of the product title differs from the official transcription, we'll still have the product field to compensate for it.

My earlier stance might have given a bit too much emphasis to the product trademark -- after some consideration, I'm now of the view that the album title field is for the album rather than the associated product, so if the album publisher chooses to print the title differently, we'll just go along with it (within the bounds of common sense).

(Just to clarify; the above pertains to albums that don't already have official transcriptions provided by the album publisher)

[Ira]

Something to watch out for, neither title seems to be explicitly transcribed on their respective websites (i.e. written in ASCII) -- so what you're looking at are also potentially stylized images. (I guess Cedille already mentioned that)

I'm aware. For KimiKiss, the only case I've seen it transcribed (in ASCII!) is one album on this page (http://www.enterbrain.co.jp/game_site/kimikiss/cd.html) and this isn't really conclusive. There doesn't seem to be an official romanization given by the original publisher.

[Kaleb.G]

Generally I'd say yes, though I think that romanization qualifies as the Display title according to the hierarchy rule candidate, since it's the only English text on the album. I don't know if this is acceptable or if we need to rework it.
Wait, that's right. I was thinking Display #1 states to have it replaced with the official English game titles.

[The Gambler]

I think that romanization should probably prevail in most cases for Display#1, even on higher hierarchy than the english text found on CDs.

This is because romanized is 100% accurate (provided you romanize it correctly), while english text found on CDs is often full of typos or even less than accurate when it comes to translations.

Case in point: KICA 7760.

Display#1 should be the actual third line ("Gekka no Yasoukyoku")

We have english text here http://vgmdb.net/db/covers.php?do=view&cover=33097
as Gekka no Nocturne, but I'd prefer to go with the romanization, since english clashes with other sources (ie from the game: "Nocturne in the Moonlight").

[Secret Squirrel]

These Dracula albums are all starting to run together, but where does that "Nocturne in the Moonlight" come from? It doesn't seem to be on the scans.

[The Gambler]

It was from the text in the game's intro (japanese one iirc). If you greenlight me, I'm submitting changes ^^

[Secret Squirrel]

It seems like they missed an "X" when they wrote the Romanized title on the spine.

What does everyone think about these kinds of official titles that come from the Japanese game title? I hadn't considered that as a possible source for anything.

[The Gambler]

What does everyone think about these kinds of official titles that come from the Japanese game title? I hadn't considered that as a possible source for anything.

I think that if they are interesting and / or well known, they may be a good fourth line (Alternative). Useful for search purpose.

[Kaleb.G]

I've been too indecisive and meandering with my discussion thus far, so I'm going to tone it down to the essentials.

I think that romanization should probably prevail in most cases for Display#1, even on higher hierarchy than the english text found on CDs.

We already have a dedicated Romanized title field, as well as an option to show Romanized titles in place of the Display titles. It begs the true question: What is our ultimate goal with the Display title? Of course, it can't be complete accuracy, because the Original title is the most accurate.

If the Display title is attempting to make an easy read for English speakers, then it shouldn't be a Romanized title unless there are no other reasonable English alternatives. Most English speakers can't make sense of many Romanizations. Sure, they can read it (and maybe even even pronounce it), but it's gibberish to them. How will any typical English-speaking game music fan know that "Gacha Mecha Stadium Saru Battle" is actually "Ape Escape: Pumped & Primed"? Likewise, I've never heard of "Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow" referred to as "Akumajo Dracula Sougetsu no Juujika". It's just inconvenient.

And again, I am all for maintaining official information. But when we already have the Original and Romanized fields used up, what's left to use the Display for?

[The Gambler]

I've been too indecisive and meandering with my discussion thus far, so I'm going to tone it down to the essentials.

We already have a dedicated Romanized title field, as well as an option to show Romanized titles in place of the Display titles. It begs the true question: What is our ultimate goal with the Display title? Of course, it can't be complete accuracy, because the Original title is the most accurate.

If the Display title is attempting to make an easy read for English speakers, then it shouldn't be a Romanized title unless there are no other reasonable English alternatives. Most English speakers can't make sense of many Romanizations. Sure, they can read it (and maybe even even pronounce it), but it's gibberish to them. How will any typical English-speaking game music fan know that "Gacha Mecha Stadium Saru Battle" is actually "Ape Escape: Pumped & Primed"? Likewise, I've never heard of "Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow" referred to as "Akumajo Dracula Sougetsu no Juujika". It's just inconvenient.

And again, I am all for maintaining official information. But when we already have the Original and Romanized fields used up, what's left to use the Display for?

And yet, even if all you're saying regarding the display field sounds reasonable, the practice of the database is often in reverse.

I'll try to reply each relevant point to clarify my stance (to myself, then to others).

"Of course, it can't be complete accuracy, because the Original title is the most accurate."

Yes, Original is the most accurate, but it requires the use of foreign (non-latin) alphabet. Therefore I think a good goal for the Display line would be "the most accuracy possible" without recurring to foreign alphabets.

"If the Display title is attempting to make an easy read for English speakers, then it shouldn't be a Romanized title unless there are no other reasonable English alternatives."

"If" - but this criteria loses some of its importance if, as Squirrel says, the search function does search in all the four title lines. In other words, if I am able to search "Castlevania" and obtain the "Akumajo Dracula" albums, it's not so vital that the Display line does look for English alternatives to romanization. If I search Ape Escape and I obtain Sarugecchu CDs, I most likely will have a look at them, learning something in the process.

"Most English speakers can't make sense of many Romanizations. Sure, they can read it (and maybe even even pronounce it), but it's gibberish to them."

I appreciate the idea to keep the site entry-level, although, let's not lose perspective. The average reader here has already a quite advanced knowledge of one or more of these fields: videogames, videogame music, videogame series, localization issues, and such. We are talking of a community geared towards obtaining soundtracks which, for the most part, are on the grey import market. I'm pretty sure the average Joe here has heard of Sarugetchu, and if he hasn't, it won't take long for him to go around that.
Am I advocating then to stay "obscure" and "niche" just for the sake of it? No, not at all - it's good to provide easy read and as many possible translations and options. But since it's a database focused on gathering information, it would be better to stay a little more strict to the album's information.

Likewise, I've never heard of "Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow" referred to as "Akumajo Dracula Sougetsu no Juujika".

It's not so uncommon, actually - at least in CV forums. But continuing on the example, I've never heard of someone calling the "Akumajo Dracula Best" albums "Castlevania Best". The majority of these albums has never reached officially west (think on the so many Castlevania related cds that are not specifically soundtracks) - it's a bit of a stretch to apply to these Japanese albums the official English name of the games they are based on.

I am all for maintaining official information. But when we already have the Original and Romanized fields used up, what's left to use the Display for?

In my view, Display should be basically Romanized. Either that, or based on English text already present on the album. I can reverse your question and say: when we have a fourth line for "alternative" titles (english translations, games' titles etc.) why do we have to mess around with the first Display line?

That's my two cent so far, although I still have some doubts myself. ^^;

[Secret Squirrel]

We are spinning in circles here, which means a likely outcome will be sticking with discretion on an album-by-album basis. We might be able to adopt pieces of this, as the disagreement is really only on the Display title.

It's useful that we are looking at specific cases to test this problem out. In this case, we have these candidates for Display title:

Romanized title from the Spine
An English title that appeared on the first screen of the Japanese game, but was not used when localized.
Localized English language game title.


Title 2 was used in our community, presumably before title 3 was known. The guideline I proposed above would rank title 1 as the Display title by virtue of it being the only English title on the album. The modified guideline I mentioned to Ira would give the submitter discretion to choose the best title from multiple sources, and would also probably end up with title 1, unless the Japanese game loading screen is added to the list of sources that can be used to build the best possible title.

[The Gambler]

You're forgetting a fourth possibile candidate:

4. English title from the album (when it is present)

I however would prefer to go with the first candidate (romanized from the spine) whenever possible.

[Secret Squirrel]

Well, yeah, I was just talking about this album.

[The Gambler]

a likely outcome will be sticking with discretion on an album-by-album basis.

This is sensible - however, without a general rule I think several album will be edited and re-edited endlessly :D

edit: you mean the KICA-7760?

[Ira]

The display should be what people will most easily recognize and in this case most of our traffic is western (or seems to be, Gigablah or Secret Squirrel, confirm/deny?) It's rather presumptuous to expect people to be familiar with romanizations and as stated by others we have the option to change how items are displayed. Personally I'm usually comfortable with romanized names, but if I did a search for a franchise I'm not too familiar with and got a bunch of names I don't recognize I know I would be confused and forced to sort through the results to figure out what is what and find what I'm looking for (you may be able to search for alternate titles, but the display is what's going to show up in search results.) Doing this kind of extra research isn't a bad thing, I like knowing this kind of stuff, but it's still inconvenient when you just want to find what you're looking for. Above all I believe we should be making the information accessible to people (part of why I continue to advocate for using information that may not be exactly what is printed on the album, but is more commonly used.)

To reiterate, because we have the option of changing how names are displayed the default should be what is most accessible.

[Secret Squirrel]

But the big question here is, would you go with the Akumajo Dracula X ~Nocturne in the Moonlight or Castlevania: Symphony of the Night.

I think I know what you'll answer, but the source of the name is still rather sketchy: we probably need to see it to make sure it doesn't say something like Devil's Castle Dracula X: Nocturne in the Moonlight, as implied by wiki. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_of_Varda)

[seanne]

But the big question here is, would you go with the Akumajo Dracula X ~Nocturne in the Moonlight or Castlevania: Symphony of the Night.

I think I know what you'll answer, but the source of the name is still rather sketchy: we probably need to see it to make sure it doesn't say something like Devil's Castle Dracula X: Nocturne in the Moonlight, as implied by wiki. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_of_Varda)

It seems to only say "Dracula X" (yt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpM-yWnWlnU)). Note that it uses the same English text during the opening as the English version does, the only difference being that it says Dracula X instead of Castlevania at the end. The game begins after that video stops so it's not likely that there is any further title screen (certainly isn't in the English version).

[The Gambler]

It seems to only say "Dracula X" (yt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpM-yWnWlnU)). Note that it uses the same English text during the opening as the English version does, the only difference being that it says Dracula X instead of Castlevania at the end.

Sorry. it's not at the beginning but rather it comes out at the beginning of the end credits: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P70CfHGNLrQ

That's the spot, but I didn't find the correct video, that one is for the US.

p.s. I would display Akumajo Dracula X ~Gekka no Yasoukyoku~ and I would be confident that everyone would reach the album just by typing Symphony of the night in the search bar. :)

I wouldn't translate Akumajo Dracula to Castlevania, since that would mean a loss of information for those titles which are called Castlevania in Japan. So if you want to avoid romanization at all costs I would go with Nocturne in the Moonlight.

[Kaleb.G]

This is sensible - however, without a general rule I think several album will be edited and re-edited endlessly :D

edit: you mean the KICA-7760?
I agree, actually. I'd rather concede and let a standard I don't necessarily agree with take over than see an endless cycle of edits on an album due to different opinions between members.

In my opinion, the most important thing is making sure all relevant information is presented rather than which order it's in.

This also ties back to my question about what criteria is necessary for the use of "fan translations" to be included (even if as just line 4+: Alternate titles). SS's answer was only applicable to the specific example I mentioned... unless we have someone going around the entire Internet fixing titles to conform to VGMdb. >_>

[Myrkul]

I am getting lost, and you guys sure debate a lot..

I don't see why the previous idea by SS was not adopted:
Display
1. English title that appears on Front Cover (or Obi) with game name corrected if official game name differs, and other minor corrections permitted.
2. English localized game title + best translation of the rest of the title, if the game has an official English equivalent.
3. Romanized game title + best translation of the rest of the title, if there is no official English title for the game.


So if we apply SS proposition for KICA-7760:

There is no english title on front & obi covers! (yes there is one but it's on the back cover little spines.. so we will discard it and clearly state on our guiline that we are only using Front & Obi texts)
Is there an english localized name title? Yes, it's Castlevania: Symphony of the night.

So the whole KICA-7760 entry should be like
Castlevania: Symphony of the night Original Game Soundtrack
悪魔城ドラキュラX～月下の夜想曲～ ORIGINAL GAME SOUNDTRACK
Akumajo Dracula X ~Gekka no Yasoukyoku~ Original Game Soundtrack
Akumajo Dracula X ~Nocturne in the Moonlight~ Original Game Soundtrack


EDIT: i tryed to do a full synthese myself with the remarks so far.. it's big so pardon me but i made it as complete as possible!
# Display

1. English album title that appears on Front/Obi cover + best translation of the rest of the title
2. English album title that is used on publisher/distributer websites + best translation of the rest of the title
3. English game title + best translation of the rest of the title (if the game has an official English localization)
4. English game title + best translation of the rest of the title (if the game has no official English localization but an English title was used in the game)
5. Romanized album title as displayed in on Front/Obi cover + best translation of the rest of the title
6. Romanized album title used anywhere in the album package + best translation of the rest of the title
7. Romanized album title used on publisher/distributer websites + best translation of the rest of the title
8. Official romanization of Asian titles + best translation of the rest of the title [doesn't have to conform to VGMdb's romanization scheme]
9. Best full romanization of Asian titles if one is not available + best translation of the rest of the title [conforms to VGMdb's romanization scheme]


# Original

1. Album name exactly as it appears on Front/Obi cover (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank)
2. If everything is English, album title as it appears on Front/Obi cover with no correction (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank)


# Romanized

1. Romanized album title as displayed in on Front/Obi cover + best translation of the rest of the title (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank)
2. Romanized title used anywhere in the album package + best translation of the rest of the title (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank)
3. Romanized album title used on publisher/distributer websites + best translation of the rest of the title (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank)
4. Official romanization of Asian titles + best translation of the rest of the title (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank) [doesn't have to conform to VGMdb's romanization scheme].
5. Best full romanization of Asian titles if one is not available + best translation of the rest of the title (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank) [conforms to VGMdb's romanization scheme].


# Alternate

1. English album title used in other part of the package + best translation of the rest of the title (skip that unless there is any)
2. English album title used on publisher/distributer websites + best translation of the rest of the title. (skip that unless there is any or if it is the same as the Display title)
3. English game title + best translation of the rest of the title (skip that unless there is any or if it is the same as the Display title)
4. English game title + best translation of the rest of the title (if the game has no official English localization but an English title was used in the game, skip that unless there is any or if it is the same as the Display title)
5. Fan translation of Game Title + best translation of the rest of the title, for those albums for which it is appropriate (skip that unless there is any)
6. Japanese official title for a Japanese works released with only English titles on the album. (for searchability)

Most important things:
There is a big difference with "Album Title" & "Game Title".
Maybe we need to make a choice of order between the Front & the Obi cover as they often does not display the same thing (obi is more complete most of the time)

[Cedille]

# Original
1. Album name exactly as it appears on Front/Obi cover (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank)
2. If everything is English, album title as it appears on Front/Obi cover with no correction (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank)
Well summed up but I have a couple questions.

In Secret Squirrel's draft, there was guideline on which was preferentially seen as the Original when both English and Japanese titles were printed, but don't you like that idea?

Also, I still don't understand how much of discretion is allowed for the capitalization and the usage of spaces (which is one of the major causes of cyclical editing, but I feel like we're leaning toward all caps if it's printed).

[Ira]

(Just to clarify; the above pertains to albums that don't already have official transcriptions provided by the album publisher)

I forgot to ask for clarification on this, does this mean if there is an official transcription that it should be used for original or display, or what?

[The Gambler]

(yes there is one but it's on the back cover little spines.. so we will discard it and clearly state on our guiline that we are only using Front & Obi texts)

Huh? excuse me, but is there a particular reason why the text on the obi and on the front / booklet is any more significant than text on the back / sides of the case? Doesn't make much sense in my view?

Is there an english localized name title? Yes, it's Castlevania: Symphony of the night.

These are Japanese soundtracks of Japanese games, released in Japan. Why would we want to give away the false impression that these are soundtracks of the English localized games? There are several cases of soundtracks getting a western release (even KICA 7760, if I'm not mistaken, is now available in the west in digital download format), so why we should call the Japanese soundtracks in a way that misrepresent them for what they are not?

Why this album: http://vgmdb.net/album/4772 should be displayed in a way that leads people to think it's something else, for example this album: http://vgmdb.net/album/12151

[Myrkul]

Huh? excuse me, but is there a particular reason why the text on the obi and on the front / booklet is any more significant than text on the back / sides of the case? Doesn't make much sense in my view?

Yeah i forgot to edit that in my sum list.. i should add it since you'r right, it's stupid to ommit it, but front & obi should have higher priority.

These are Japanese soundtracks of Japanese games, released in Japan. Why would we want to give away the false impression that these are soundtracks of the English localized games? There are several cases of soundtracks getting a western release (even KICA 7760, if I'm not mistaken, is now available in the west in digital download format), so why we should call the Japanese soundtracks in a way that misrepresent them for what they are not?

I think this is fine if the original game & the localized one use the same music, that could be a major mistake to give an english title to a foreign game that have exclusive music.

What do you suggest? To use Romanized title for every Japanese release?

[Gigablah]

I forgot to ask for clarification on this, does this mean if there is an official transcription that it should be used for original or display, or what?

If official transcriptions are available in two language versions, technically they should both be "original" with another field to denote their languages. But that's for a future improvement to our title system. For now we just map the transcriptions to the equivalent language lines.

Naturally there should be some discretion involved -- titles may sometimes be misprinted on albums, but it's just as likely for a title to be misprinted on an official website. I've even had cases where titles were inconsistent across the album booklet, the back of the album, and the website. (Though websites can also be the source of official corrections by the publisher)


most of our traffic is western (or seems to be, Gigablah or Secret Squirrel, confirm/deny?)

The amount of traffic we get from Japan is almost equal to the traffic from America.


Above all I believe we should be making the information accessible to people (part of why I continue to advocate for using information that may not be exactly what is printed on the album, but is more commonly used.)

I think this is more of a searchability issue. We don't necessarily have to display album titles that are tweaked to be accessible to a Western audience, as long as the Akumajo Dracula albums show up in searches for "Castlevania" and so on. However, I believe this can be mitigated by having the "associated product" field integrated with the multiple language title system and displaying it alongside search results. (That's a job for our future product database).

[Ira]

However, I believe this can be mitigated by having the "associated product" field integrated with the multiple language title system and displaying it alongside search results. (That's a job for our future product database).
That would certainly be the best of both worlds. I can get behind this.

The amount of traffic we get from Japan is almost equal to the traffic from America.
Interesting to know.

[Dag]

This is getting complicated...

(Myrkul's list)
# Romanized
Romanized album title as displayed in on Front/Obi cover + best translation of the rest of the titleShouldn't these just be romanized without translating anything? If the display title already has the best translation... And the CAPS, an explicit mention would be good too.

As for whether using localized/romanized in display (when there is no English printed and such), I think this is best set case-by-case using localized only when it's appropriate, nobody will fully agree on certain titles but in like 90% of other albums nobody cares so go with romanized as a base, like it is now more or less (easier standard). When is appropriate it's up to debate (and I do think some albums are better with localized names), but when is *not * and just to clarify I'd go with:
- the localized name isn't well known/minor series/comes too late/too different/not really the same game (Gyakuten Saiban [GBA] -> Ace Attourney [DS])
- the localized name is terrible/dumb/causes problems (Sengoku Basara > Devil Kings, Tales of Eternia > Destiny II)
- the original name is clear enough for the user (Genso Suikoden > Suikoden)
- the localized name changes between games (Yuusha no kuse ni > Holy invasion of provacy Badman > What did I to deserve this, my lord)
- the locallzed and original names clash (some "Akumajo" albums were released as Castlevania in the US and Japan)
- long series with some games not being released in the US (Jinguji Saburo -> Jack Hunter)
And so on (this is just about display, you can always add US names to 3th+ line). No point in forcing all-localized-when-available and not necessarily the US name is more popular to the site's audience IMO. Plus I'd like to think the average user isn't going to flip out if searching for Castlevania shows Akumajo results...


Also about JASCII in original titles like in this entry (http://vgmdb.net/album/3520). I think we should convert them to ASCII, unless there is proof they are used in the publisher's website/printed/etc but this is rare. Maybe somebody knows if they are genuinely used, they all look like regular ASCII to me. To help Japanese users you could make that JASCII would be converted ASCII in searchs, so they actually show results. Ex.- searching for ＳＡＭＵＲＡＩ in JASCII gets few results.

[Cedille]

Unless the front or obi indicates otherwise, a main title and a sub title should be separated by a colon ( : )
Do this cover the case where both the album's own name and the more descriptive name (e.g. Game Title + Original Soundtrack) are printed without any separator? Those are the types of albums I'm taking about;

AriaPrythem Skyprythem OriginalSoundTrack (http://vgmdb.net/album/15936)
Mstyle Leaf Arrange Sound Track (http://vgmdb.net/album/17356)
Sakura Note ~Ima ni Tsunagaru Mirai~ Oto no Okurimono (http://vgmdb.net/album/15123)

We may have to follow the spine or the Obi where the separator can be found (like this album (http://vgmdb.net/db/covers.php?do=view&cover=68940)), but that's not always the case, and I think there are various ways we normally handle this kind of albums, and which comes first varies by the submitters. Then again, sorry if this is the very case we should use a colon (I just wondered if it was mostly intended for separating the game's subtitle).

[Secret Squirrel]

I agree that the colon as a separator would look odd in those cases. I think it's intended more for game subtitles. Also, we should use existing separators on the cover or obi.

Also, I apologize for not moving things forward on this topic; I just don't have an answer that I'm satisfied with yet.

[Kaleb.G]

Also, I apologize for not moving things forward on this topic; I just don't have an answer that I'm satisfied with yet.
Which specific questions are still up for debate? The discussion is pretty verbose right now, so it's a bit hard for me to follow.

[lgb]

I believe you're going a bit far by considering any localized titles as the "best display name", these albums were NOT released under those titles so they should NOT be considered the main display name, just like any translated tracklist should not be considered the main tracklist.

romaji titles really aren't the main titles either but it is romaji and using it would make much more sense than any translation or localization choice

[Kaleb.G]

just like any translated tracklist should not be considered the main tracklist.
But at VGMdb, they usually are, which I am in support of. (Not to be confused with the original tracklist.)

The Original and Romanized album title options are already there. Why you want to eat your cake and have it too, I don't know.

[Gigablah]

The upcoming improved system will be more language agnostic; it'll allow you to differentiate the original tracktitles from the "default" tracktitles (which just means the translation that displays by default based on the user's language preference). Same with album titles.

[Kaleb.G]

The upcoming improved system will be more language agnostic; it'll allow you to differentiate the original tracktitles from the "default" tracktitles (which just means the translation that displays by default based on the user's language preference). Same with album titles.
That sounds very good. I'm sure the Japanese visitors would like that (providing they can find the correct options). Are you going to intergrate it with vBulletin's multi-language functionality?

[lgb]

Why you want to eat your cake and have it too, I don't know.
it's "have your cake and eat it too", and why exactly would you have a cake without eating it? oh wait, the phrase itself is based on weird principles.

[Gigablah]

Well, you can reword it as "eat your cake without losing it". Semantics schlemantics.

[Kaleb.G]

it's "have your cake and eat it too", and why exactly would you have a cake without eating it? oh wait, the phrase itself is based on weird principles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Have_one%27s_cake_and_eat_it_too

The way I phrased it is more like the original quote, which actually makes more sense to the casual reader.

[Secret Squirrel]

I've made a few adjustments to the instructions for title. I think we made good progress on this one, even if we didn't come to any consensus for a rigid set of guidelines defining each line. We attain some flexibility, and can always tighten the rules if it becomes necessary.

Album Titles

There is support for multiple titles, separated by carriage returns (Enter key). Only the first line is absolutely required.

line 1: Display Name

This is the name that will appear as the title when the album is displayed.
Generally, the name for an album comes from the title on the Front or the Spine.
If the game has an official english name, you may use it instead of the romanized Japanese name (Art of Fighting instead of Ryouko no Ken).
If a game does not have an official English language release, don't submit a literal translation of the game's name. It is fine to translate other parts of the album title (e.g. Ongakushu -> Music Collection).
Never abbreviate to OST (unless the title really does include it, but this is rare).
All monospace characters should be mapped to the Latin charset equivalent, thus ～ＪＡＳＣＩＩ should be ~JASCII. Decorative symbols like ☆ are still permitted.


line 2: Original

Use this when the official name differs from the display name.
For Eastern releases, this will often require Unicode characters.

line 3: Romanized

Direct romanization of the original title. Note, don't include this if it's essentially the same as the Display title.
In particular, please do not literally transcribe loan words (i.e., no Orijinaru Saundotorakku)

line 4+: Alternatives

Any alternate titles can be added here. For albums whose titles and franchise names are typically rendered in English, Japanese titles may be included here to aid in searches.

Unless the front or obi indicates otherwise, a main title and a sub title should be separated by a colon (:), and two titles of equal standing should be separated by a slash (/). A slash (/) may also be used at the submitter's discretion to include the artist's name on an artist album, as Title / Artist.

[Cedille]

Btw, if we should refrain from using a translated track name in the note field (http://vgmdb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=718), isn't it even less preferable to use it as the display title? (unless it's already super popular among Internet and the translation will remain fixed). Now we cover anime, there're lots of J-pop singles to add.

[Secret Squirrel]

Btw, if we should refrain from using a translated track name in the note field (http://vgmdb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=718), isn't it even less preferable to use it as the display title? (unless it's already super popular among Internet and the translation will remain fixed). Now we cover anime, there're lots of J-pop singles to add.

So, I guess what you are asking is this:

We don't literally translate a game's name, because we consider it a sort of proper name. Should we treat the titles of OP and ED themes the same way, and leave them in Romaji (particularly when it shows up in the album title)?

I haven't thought much about this problem, and I know that there are examples of these ways in some of our albums.

[Cedille]

Well, Dag suggested we should refrain from writing a translated track name in the note field, because the translation may be changed later.

Done. May I suggest/ask (before I go editting stuff), when adding notes we shouldn't put track names, just numbers. Translations will change over time and it's a pain to sync/delete.

So I had to wonder if we shouldn't use a translated track name as the album title.

[Secret Squirrel]

He meant that something like this:

04 Katamari on the Swing
Singer: Shigeru Matsuzaki (松崎しげる) Lyrics: NAMCO (Yu Miyake / Yoshihito Yano)
Composer: NAMCO (Yoshihito Yano / Yu Miyake) Arranger: NAMCO (Yu Miyake)
should be written like this:

M04
Singer: Shigeru Matsuzaki (松崎しげる) Lyrics: NAMCO (Yu Miyake / Yoshihito Yano)
Composer: NAMCO (Yoshihito Yano / Yu Miyake) Arranger: NAMCO (Yu Miyake)


Because if someone submits a new translation, the track titles in the notes field won't be automatically updated.

[Cedille]

Yeah, and doesn't that also mean we shouldn't use a translated track name for the album title because if someone submits a new translation, the track title in the album field won't be automatically updated?

[Secret Squirrel]

I don't think so, because the title in the album title is still necessary. The title in the notes is not necessary, as something like "M4" is sufficient. Also, if someone uses the titles in the track-by-track credits, a complete translation could require 30-60 title edits in the notes, but the title is just one line, so it's much easier to fix.

I think we can ask people to change the album title if they re-translate the headline track, but asking them to edit all of that repeated information in the notes is a lot of unnecessary work. (Unnecessary because a format like "M4" is more concise and preferable.)

There may be other reasons not to use a translated OP/ED title for the album title, but this isn't a good reason.

[Cedille]

I don't think so, because the title in the album title is still necessary. The title in the notes is not necessary, as something like "M4" is sufficient.
Well, only one title for the display line is absolutely necessary, and with an average Japanese J-pop single, we already have Japanese and Romaji titles, so I don't think a translated title is necessary (for instance, nobody has added "Isn't it Wonderful?" to this album (http://vgmdb.net/album/103) yet, even though it's our current translation).

But yeah, I don't intend to argue about it at all. In fact, I've also sometimes used translated titles for the display line, but just wanted to know if that policy on the note field would also apply to the title field. Sorry for the confusion.

[Secret Squirrel]

It's ok. The notes field thing is really to help with maintainability. It's more of a guideline than a policy I think.

[seanne]

We don't literally translate a game's name, because we consider it a sort of proper name. Should we treat the titles of OP and ED themes the same way, and leave them in Romaji (particularly when it shows up in the album title)?

I think this is an important point as well; I think it's better to refrain from translating titles of pop songs (just like we don't translate the names of groups) based on the precedent set in the mainstream music industry, and the confusion it could cause. I don't really see any benefits with doing it either.

Imagine if everyone referred to 'Yellow Submarine' by the equivalent words in their own language.

[Secret Squirrel]

That's a pretty big change though, because it amounts to leaving most vocals in romaji.

[seanne]

That's a pretty big change though, because it amounts to leaving most vocals in romaji.

I think it would be mostly important for album titles, so it would affect j-pop singles mostly. If we have an English translated tracklist I guess it could be reasonable to translated even such titles, even if it sounds and seems a bit awkward to me.

[Dag]

For singles in album titles I'd prefer them in romaji, it's easy to mistranslate and these names spread fast and never leave. Most sites/shops will have romaji so I'd just go along. We don't use "Demon(Devil? Satan's?) Castle Dracula" anyway.

However I dislike romaji in English tracklists, we have 'romaji' tracklists for that. If we are going to translate JP titles (meanings), we should be consistent without selective "translate this, but not that".

[Cedille]

Btw....

Based on the past discussion, how the album title of Ar Tonelico (http://vgmdb.net/search?q=Ar+Tonelico) series should be? For Castlevania, the series where subtitles virtually serve as the main titles of each game, I remember we basically decided to remove fan translations. While there are still some albums with translated subtitles, is it no longer eligible to translate them?

For this album (http://vgmdb.net/album/4595), I guess we have roughly three options;

Display: Ar tonelico 2 ~Sekai ni Hibiku Shoujotachi no Metafalica~ Original Soundtrack
Original: アルトネリコ2 世界に響く少女たちの創造詩 オリジナルサウンドトラック
Alternate: Ar tonelico II: Melody of Metafalica Original Soundtrack
Or

Display: Ar tonelico II ~The Girls' Metafalica that Echoes to the World~ Original Soundtrack
Original: アルトネリコ2 世界に響く少女たちの創造詩 オリジナルサウンドトラック
Romaji: Ar tonelico 2 ~Sekai ni Hibiku Shoujotachi no Metafalica~ Original Soundtrack
Alternate: Ar tonelico II: Melody of Metafalica Original Soundtrack
Or

Display: Ar tonelico II: Melody of Metafalica Original Soundtrack
Original: アルトネリコ2 世界に響く少女たちの創造詩 オリジナルサウンドトラック
Romaji: Ar tonelico 2 ~Sekai ni Hibiku Shoujotachi no Metafalica~ Original Soundtrack
Alternate: Ar tonelico II ~The Girls' Metafalica that Echoes to the World~ Original Soundtrack

[Dag]

These are some convoluted subtitles... I'd leave them untouched for now, but prefer 1. 3 is ok but might be confusing (there are US albums with that name)

[Secret Squirrel]

So, is 'The Girls' Metafalica that Echoes to the World' some kind of fan translation? It's not even that great of a translation. Too clunky in English.

I'd go with 1.

[Myrkul]

I am for the 1st choice too.

[seanne]

Same as with Castlevania albums, the display title should mirror the region of release. So for Japanese releases I agree option 1 is the best choice.

[Cedille]

Thanks for feedbacks, so these fan translations should be removed, but is this decision applicable to all the albums on this database, rather than specific to Ar tonelico? Shouldn't we translate a game's subtitle by ourselves and only when it's officially used somewhere (like "Nocturne in The Moonlight") could we use it as the alternate title? I remember we nearly decided the same thing in the Castlevania discussion, but since then I've sometimes seen what looked like a fan translation being added, so I'm not sure what's our policy is right now.

Also, when we want to add the alternate title to the album, the 3rd line of which is blank, should we leave the 3rd line and use the 4th? Or can we add the alternate title to the 3rd line instead? I've noticed it differs in submitters (I think SS mostly does the former).


Display: Ar tonelico 2 ~Sekai ni Hibiku Shoujotachi no Metafalica~ Original Soundtrack
Original: アルトネリコ2 世界に響く少女たちの創造詩 オリジナルサウンドトラック
Romaji: (Blank)
Alternate: Ar tonelico II: Melody of Metafalica Original Soundtrack
Or

Display: Ar tonelico 2 ~Sekai ni Hibiku Shoujotachi no Metafalica~ Original Soundtrack
Original: アルトネリコ2 世界に響く少女たちの創造詩 オリジナルサウンドトラック
Romaji (Alternate): Ar tonelico II: Melody of Metafalica Original Soundtrack

[Secret Squirrel]

Always put the alternates in the 4th line, even if it means leaving the 3rd line blank, so that the alternate title isn't displayed when the Title Displays are in Romaji mode.

If you want to move through and start removing the fan translations, I think it's a good idea, but the best thing to do would be to discuss them each individually. I'm never completely sure whether some translations have official sources somewhere that I have overlooked. Also, I really want to start officially encouraging submitters to post some kind of rationale whenever they alter data submitted by somebody else (and in theory accepted by the community).

[Cedille]

Sure, I'll post a question in the thread before removal (currently the only albums I target at are some of recent Mega Man albums, though).
Also, I really want to start officially encouraging submitters to post some kind of rationale whenever they alter data submitted by somebody else (and in theory accepted by the community).
Yeah, it's definitely helpful.

[Myrkul]

I wonder if we could get back into the debate ..
And include animation now.

I've compiled another list of what i (personally) like the most, and have been nearly approved by everyone in the above posts..
But i defenitely want to debate and "set in stone" this guideline.

the display title should mirror the region of release
The most important debate here, is about using or not a Romanized title for a game or animation product that have been localized but that is not printed anywhere on the package.
I am clearly against using English localized titles because i think we should always try to see the original region of the release.
I still don't understand why are we using "Art of Fighting" as a display and not Ryuuko no Ken, while we use "Garou Densetsu" and not "Fatal Fury".. we'r not consistent here.

Also what should be clearly stated is.. what to choose as display if both English and Romanized titles are printed on covers but differs.


line 1: Display Name

[English Titles]
01. English album title that appears on Front/Obi cover + best translation of the rest of the title
02. English album title that appears on the rest of the package (back, spine..) + best translation of the rest of the title
03. English album title that is used on publisher/distributer websites + best translation of the rest of the title
[Non-English & Non-Asians Titles]
04. Album name exactly as it appears on Front/Obi cover [ex: Aus dem Original Soundtrack des Computerspiels Sternenschweif (http://vgmdb.net/album/2235)]
05. Album name exactly as it appears on the rest of the package (back, spine..)
[Asian Titles]
06. Romanized album title as displayed in on Front/Obi cover + best translation of the rest of the title
07. Romanized title that appears on the rest of the package (back, spine..) + best translation of the rest of the title
08. Romanized album title used on publisher/distributer websites + best translation of the rest of the title
09. Official romanization of Asian titles + best translation of the rest of the title [doesn't have to conform to VGMdb's romanization scheme]
10. Best full romanization of Asian titles if one is not available + best translation of the rest of the title [conforms to VGMdb's romanization scheme]


line 2: Original

1. Album name exactly as it appears on Front/Obi cover (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank)
2. Album name exactly as it appears on the rest of the package (back, spine..) (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank)
3. If everything is English, album title as it appears on Front/Obi cover with no correction (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank)


line 3: Romanized

1. Romanized album title as displayed in on Front/Obi cover + best translation of the rest of the title (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank)
2. Romanized title used anywhere in the album package + best translation of the rest of the title (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank)
3. Romanized album title used on publisher/distributer websites + best translation of the rest of the title (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank)
4. Official romanization of Asian titles + best translation of the rest of the title (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank) [doesn't have to conform to VGMdb's romanization scheme].
5. Best full romanization of Asian titles if one is not available + best translation of the rest of the title (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank) [conforms to VGMdb's romanization scheme].


line 4: Alternate

1. English album title used in other part of the package + best translation of the rest of the title (skip that unless there is any)
2. English album title used on publisher/distributer websites + best translation of the rest of the title. (skip that unless there is any or if it is the same as the Display title)
3. English game/anime title + best translation of the rest of the title (skip that unless there is any or if it is the same as the Display title)
4. English game/anime title + best translation of the rest of the title (if the game/anime has no official English localization but an English title was used in the game/anime, skip that unless there is any or if it is the same as the Display title)
5. Fan translation of game/anime title + best translation of the rest of the title, for those albums for which it is appropriate (skip that unless there is any)
6. Japanese official title for a Japanese release with only English titles on the album. (for searchability)

[Phonograph]

"+ best translation" <-- like translating ongakushuu into music collection? (for instance)

[Phonograph]

...

However I dislike romaji in English tracklists, we have 'romaji' tracklists for that. If we are going to translate JP titles (meanings), we should be consistent without selective "translate this, but not that".

but if there are songs like tv size/full size/etc.?
you should translate regardless?

(personally, I never translate songs)

[Dag]

^^ Well, do what you think it's best as the translator, no hard rules here. :)

I always translate everything, to me English tracklist should give English meaning for people that don't understand Japanese. All tracks are equal to me.
(and for the record I used to leave songs untranslated)

Ongakushuu into music collection, yeah (words that aren't part of the "product" name).

[Metroid]

One of my submissions was rejected and first of all I would like to refer to this post http://vgmdb.net/forums/showpost.php?p=22078&postcount=130 , I would like to express that major retailers as CD Japan or Play-Asia have official, alternative or literal translations for titles. As a customer I would like to see the same exact title names as found there right here at VGMDB. It makes it easier for fans to find out their owned albums.

So regarding this album http://vgmdb.net/album/4595 , "Ar tonelico II: Sekai ni Hibiku Shoujotachi no Metafalica Original Soundtrack" . I would consider that we should also add the "Ar Tonelico 2 Sekai Ni Hibiku Shojo Tachi No Sozoshi Original Soundtrack" as an alternative title name as you can see right here http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-8l-49-en-70-26f0.html and here http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=KDSD-10027 .

[Cedille]

It's also a matter of whether we should seek out and spread what's correct to other sites, or accept common mistakes. Reading 創造詩 as Sozoshi is wrong, as evidenced by the title logo, and I think if the difference is either Sozoshi or Metafalica, I suppose it doesn't bother customers that much. Ar tonelico II is less problematic, compared to some other games a bit too commonly recognized with a fan translation.

I think the best place to put unofficial translation /alternate reading is a brief introduction section in the product pages, as Wikipedia's game articles often inform how the game is literally translated while how officially it is.

[Metroid]

The title name in there is there for a reason, professional people work there 24/7. They may get the title name from official sources or professional translators as being a worldwide online shop / distributor. I think is a matter of taking it as a reference of that title name and place it as an alternative title, like I said that will help people in searches.

[Secret Squirrel]

We've made the decision to be a leader in presenting titles as correctly as we can according to our guidelines. We're not going to add incorrect titles to enhance searchability.

[LiquidAcid]

The title name in there is there for a reason, professional people work there 24/7.
Honestly, I seriously doubt that. IMHO the staff here at VGMdb has way more expertise in the VGM area than any of the people working at Play-Asia and CDJapan.

The main interest of resellers / distributors is to sell their stock and it's not to provide the most accurate information about the items they sell.

[Metroid]

We've made the decision to be a leader in presenting titles as correctly as we can according to our guidelines. We're not going to add incorrect titles to enhance searchability.

This could be done by redirecting to the album. The information does not need to be visible there. Anyway, I'm asking to consider what is there and it should be used to help the search for the title.

Honestly, I seriously doubt that. IMHO the staff here at VGMdb has way more expertise in the VGM area than any of the people working at Play-Asia and CDJapan.

When they get the booklet right? Because that is the only way they can truly see if the information is accurate.

The main interest of resellers / distributors is to sell their stock and it's not to provide the most accurate information about the items they sell.

The main information concerning what they mainly do is accurate. They could be sued otherwise. I would be the first one to sue them if I see catalogue number 1111, order it and then they sent me the item catalogue number 2222.

[dancey]

As an aside, any "customer" coming here to look for their album to either add to their collection, research for track titles or anything else will likely just search by catalog number. That is the universally accepted way to find Japanese releases pretty much anywhere and that's understood by even the newest people to this as a hobby.

[Metroid]

As an aside, any "customer" coming here to look for their album to either add to their collection, research for track titles or anything else will likely just search by catalog number. That is the universally accepted way to find Japanese releases pretty much anywhere and that's understood by even the newest people to this as a hobby.

Well concerning that album, first thing I would search would be the word "Sozoshi". I would likely to be redirected straight to the album, but yeah if it's a hobby then catalogue number would be the first choice, average users will most likely search for the title first.

[Cedille]

Searching albums by romaji would not be the best way here. In this case, it could be also "Souzoushi" or such. Personally, I'm pretty fond of searching albums by kanji/kana, since it's not discarded with only one character, but I know I'm at the minority side.

The main information concerning what they mainly do is accurate.
Both PlayAsia and CD Japan were wrong with the romanization of the very album we're talking about, although I do think retails are closer to the second source and generally trust them.

[LiquidAcid]

@Metroid: You would sue a distributor just because he sent you the wrong album? Honestly, I would just contact customer support and make them aware of their mistake. You probably don't even have to return the wrongly sent album in that case...

[dancey]

Well concerning that album, first thing I would search would be the word "Sozoshi". I would likely to be redirected straight to the album, but yeah if it's a hobby then catalogue number would be the first choice, average users will most likely search for the title first.

I would suggest changing how you search. It doesn't matter what kind of user you are, you should be searching for Japanese products by catalog number. There is no reason not to.

[Metroid]

Searching albums by romaji would not be the best way here. In this case, it could be also "Souzoushi" or such. Personally, I'm pretty fond of searching albums by kanji/kana, since it's not discarded with only one character, but I know I'm at the minority side.

Yeah but that would be the least common word on the title, reason I would search for, language would be irrelevant.

Both PlayAsia and CD Japan were wrong with the romanization of the very album we're talking about, although I do think retails are closer to the second source and generally trust them.

It is wrong but it looks right.

@Metroid: You would sue a distributor just because he sent you the wrong album? Honestly, I would just contact customer support and make them aware of their mistake. You probably don't even have to return the wrongly sent album in that case...

Yes, because of the information provided.

I would suggest changing how you search. It doesn't matter what kind of user you are, you should be searching for Japanese products by catalog number. There is no reason not to.

Off course it does, average users will always search first for western names before catalogue or romanization, just tell to the admin send you a search log and you will understand.

This is a database and I think that simplifying the search by using or link titlename of major retailers would be a plus for many users yet to come.

There is no pointing in continuing with this anymore. I hope most got my point.

[Razakin]

Yeah but that would be the least common word on the title, reason I would search for, language would be irrelevant.
Wouldn't most common word be tonelico? Or just search ar tonelico 2/II, instead words that doesn't even belong on the soundtrack title. And average user pretty sure wouldn't have any clue to search in romanized japanese.

[Cedille]

Btw, couldn't you decrease the width of the guideline message? I guess it's not me, but every time I expand the album title form and try to put the caret into the expanded part, it is after all covered by the guideline messages, so I end up moving the caret using by a keyboard. Pixel reduction may not be the best solution, but this is my complaint of several years.

[Myrkul]

Where are we in the guideline?

I am not agree with the current guide "If the game has an official english name, you may use it instead of the romanized Japanese name (Art of Fighting instead of Ryouko no Ken)."

I reverted all the "White Knight Chronicles" albums to "Shirokishi Monogatari".
Again for the following reasons i think are obvious (at least to me):
- There's no mention in the scans of the name of White Knight Chronicles
- It's a Japanese album and we should always reflete that (with romanization as the display title) if the scans are not romanized.

I am basing all of this on our previous discussions (ex the Ar Tonelico II case, previous page).

[Secret Squirrel]

We spun our wheels on the guidelines for a while, until we ran out of energy.

Ultimately, I don't think I have a problem with doing what you suggest, as I suspect it's what we already do in the majority of cases. Note though that it may be a big change for some things, particularly certain animes.

[dancey]

Without a defacto standard, this comes down to 100% user preference. In fact, if we had a preference to prioritize our display orders (English > Romanization > Japanese > other, etc) this wouldn't even be an issue.

Personally, I want to see English titles if one is available. This is primarily an English website for English speaking users. Romanization would be preferred for any game that doesn't have an English official title and Japanese for anything that someone hasn't romanized yet.

I'm willing to bet that the majority of users who use this site for information don't really care about anything anyone has said in this discussion and would be better off allowing them to choose their standard, anyway.

Taking your White Knight Chronicles example and expanding it further, if someone comes to this site to look up information on the album, whether it's for track titles, ripping, translated credits, scans, etc, the majority are going to type "White Knight Chronicles" into the search box. Fortunately, the search searches all of the album titles so the results still pull back, but for any non-Japanese speaker or person unfamiliar with games/series, etc, seeing a romanized search result is just not intuitive at all. Even past that, they're going to pull up the album information and they're more than likely going to ignore any standards you have put in place for whatever they're doing anyway.

I don't think there will ever be 100% agreement on this issue, and there's already way too many standards and nuances with albums to add any more. On top of that, there's no enforcement of policy so there's differences between albums, series; It really comes down to who added it first and/or if anyone caught the discrepancy.

Let's all just agree to disagree, shall we? ;)

[Phonograph]

honestly, vgmdb could turn like animenewsnetwork

when you browse their site, you have english titles (I have sometimes no idea of what anime is until I see the romanized or japanese title)
romanized titles, and I'm not 100% sure but I think some italian or polish titles are even showed for some animes which should have at least a "known" title
I just say that for saying their site is a real mess

my opinion is the product showed by default in here should be "romanized/official japanese (if exists)" and probably the localisation name for noobs (in brackets)

@cedille: if I have well understood, I experienced the same problem too
when I expand the field to the right and write text, the guidelines mix with it and that becomes unreadable, that could be better if the guidelines move to the bottom when you want to expand the album title textarea

nb: vgmdb is maybe for english users, but the world isn't an english-speaking world

[dancey]

Which is why the best option is personal preference and letting us choose what we want defaulted, and if it's not set, then stick with whatever is currently set or whatever loose ranking or standard is applied. There is, after all, no definitive way for us to define what is and what is not an official product name. One could make an argument for almost every product in the database one way or another (see: Rahxephon).

And actually, statistically speaking, the world is an English-speaking world. I'm not trying to promote or endorse anything, but I'm sure the majority of visitors here are English or Japanese, or speak at least one of them. I'd put a wager on the fact that English, Japanese and French are all top 3 in terms of visitor languages ;)

[Secret Squirrel]

How are you guys expanding the edit fields to the right? I can only stretch them vertically.

[LiquidAcid]

Are we talking about this issue?
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/822/testrrp.jpg/

[dancey]

Might be a browser discrepancy, Chrome lets me pull to the right with the // in the lower right hand corner of the control box.

[Cedille]

Hasn't Blah been working on the multilingual refurbishment since last year? I've for one thought one of the biggest obstacle about the title ordering is we have rather ambiguous "Display" and "Original" lines. Let the language each user can specify be always displayed.

How are you guys expanding the edit fields to the right? I can only stretch them vertically.

I tend to stretch the form to uncover all the text. I'd like to expand the artist and product fields as well.


Are we talking about this issue?
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/822/testrrp.jpg/

Exactly.


Might be a browser discrepancy, Chrome lets me pull to the right with the // in the lower right hand corner of the control box.

I'm using Chrome too.

[Secret Squirrel]

I think so, but my title box doesn't stretch like that. It always has scrollbars. I dont' think the boxes are supposed to be stretchable horizontally at all.

Edit: Ah, I see, so Chrome lets you do this, but IE and Firefox do not. I'm not sure this was the design intent.

[LiquidAcid]

@Secret Squirrel: It's Seamonkey 2.2, uses the same rendering engine (Gecko 2.0.x) as the 4.x series of Firefox. So it might be totally different with the latest FF version.

[Datschge]

And actually, statistically speaking, the world is a Chinese-speaking world.
Obligatory fix.

[Dag]

For the title issue, I think the more reasonable, consistent way right now (until Blah does multilang or such) is to always put the US name in the fourth line [unless it's written in the album, then can be used as display], and add an extra user option to display the 4th line instead if it exists.

[Phonograph]

let me add "Tales of Destiny II Original Soundtrack" in the Tales of Eternia OST title :p

[Dag]

If it makes some people happy, why not ;)

[Cedille]

What you guys think of guessing readings of album titles, btw? We already decided not to accept any unconfirmed readings of artists, but on the other hand, we basically don't leaves titles in Kanji, while not every time are we sure about album titles (especially, Touhou is concerned), and then have to rely on common sense and speculation. This is the double-standard we've overlooked for a while, despite the possible bigger impact of a wrong album title than an artist reading.

I know we can say that providing at least one alphabetic title must be given the highest priority, even with the risk of wrong readings, for an English-based community, nonetheless.

[CHz]

I've been pretty bad about that in the past, worse than I ever was with guessing names, but nowadays I try not to guess album titles too. If I'm submitting something I'm unsure about, I'll usually just leave the title in Japanese and make a discussion thread about it. Bad album titles can get out there just as easily as bad artist names.

[Cedille]

Or we may benefit from having some checkbox to mark the title if we're not sure about the reading, the romanization, or even the title (the last case actually often happens, as publishers can announce a soundtrack release, with enough details to make an entry here, yet we don't know the exact title until to see the album cover. In short, automatic addition of a "(tentative)" prefix or such.

[Hellacia]

I waa going to post this in separate threads, but then I realized "Why not used the thread made for this, Hellacia!"

Like I posted in the GRAN TURISMO Original Game Soundtrack (http://vgmdb.net/db/albums-discuss.php?id=3582) discussion, I'm all for representing the title of something accurately - using the same misspellings and the same silly capitalization and whatnot - but that's assuming all that is actually part of the title. I feel that sometimes we have such a need to transcribe everything just the way it is that we kind of miss the point a little.

Take CREID (http://vgmdb.net/album/5) and Actraiser (http://vgmdb.net/album/120) for great examples. I'm sure some of you will say I'm being too speculative, but I honestly don't think Mitsuda named this CD CREID Yasunori Mitsuda & Millennial Fair. Seriously. He named the CD CREID. That is the name. Track 4 is not named CREID Yasunori Mitsuda & Millennial Fair. Track 4 is named CREID. I think it's the obvious title. Same with Actraiser. It is saying "This is the title of the CD / This is who did it". Just because these things appear where the title appears doesn't make it part of the title. Take, for example, the "FINAL FANTASY VIII" Original Soundtrack (http://vgmdb.net/album/6). In basically every place the title pops up, I see Composed, Arranged & Produced by Nobuo Uematsu. So, we should make that part of the title, right? (Wrong.)

Totally not attacking anyone here. Just trying to make a valid point. When I joined I saw it fit to submit versions of tracklists that had proper capitalization. Now I think that's pretty retarded. I've learned a lot about reflecting what is really there. And I think the actual title of something is what we should put in our title field. Yes, we should strive to accurately transcribe that title as it was written, but as it was written.

[Gigablah]

CREID is one of the earliest entries in the database, so it was submitted before we had any semblance of guidelines in place. Nowadays we also place major priority on how the publisher officially transcribes the album title, so this appears to support your case: http://www.procyon-studio.com/disco/cd_creid.html

"Yasunori Mitsuda & Millennial Fair" is essentially the "artist" portion of the title, so given current standards (and ignoring the publisher's transcription) it would be "CREID / Yasunori Mitsuda & Millennial Fair", with the separator in between. However there's also the obi to consider, which has the additional prefix "Xenogears Arrange Version".

My preference would be just "CREID" for the first line, and dump the full title -- Xenogears Arrange Version "CREID" / Yasunori Mitsuda & Millennial Fair -- in the alternative title section.

[Hellacia]

That alternate title would pretty much cover everything else all in one.

Yeah, maybe it's just me, but I find that the obi will write something in a way that isn't seen anywhere else on the album - I guess usually it's more informative or contains the "fullest" title (and usually in Japanese; if you see something in English on an obi, that's some hardcore English titling). For my own collection, I try to go with the way something appears the most frequently on the album, but there's all sorts of ways to handle that.

[Phonograph]

as myrkul suggested me in a recent post, I'm gonna say something about localizations
it'll be simpler with examples, maybe (only concerning japanese releases)

Q: does the Final Fantasy Adventure Sound Collections exist?
A: no, but the product represented has that name, can anyone say it's logical? (to me, no)

Q: does the All Sounds of Final Fantasy Legend exist?
A: no, same as above

I never really noticed it before seeing the Seiken Densetsu Complete Music Book with:
Final Fantasy Adventure, Secret of Mana, Legend of Mana, Sword of Mana, Children of Mana, Dawn of Mana, Heroes of Mana

and that funny thing is the only product matching the title of the box is Seiken Densetsu 3 (it's like an intruder ;p)
there is nothing that shocks you?

at least, titles like LoM, SwOM, CoM or HoM could have "(Shinyaku for SwOM) Seiken Densetsu (DS for CoM): "
I don't remember where I said that or even if I said it on the forums but I was forced to search for info about Dawn of Mana because I have no idea of what it was (now I know it's SD4, edit: I had forgot that there is a page about it on the site)

I could give other examples but I think it's enough
maybe something could be made for people who really want an english localization but it should be optional, not imposed

[Myrkul]

Not sure if i understand your point, but i want to say this thread is about the Titles (titles of the albums)... and not about the titles/names or the products field.
Though we do not have a "product" guideline.

I agree with you i find a bit strange an album that have a romanized title (because it's a Japanese release), and the product field display title is localized.
(it's like having a garou densetsu album, and product field: fatal fury).

[Phonograph]

it's not that far, both are complementary
I think album title and product title could be discussed together

[seanne]

Q: does the Final Fantasy Adventure Sound Collections exist?
A: no, but the product represented has that name, can anyone say it's logical? (to me, no)

To explain our reasoning: The product in question was released in NA as 'Final Fantasy Adventure', so we use that as the display title for the product page. The album in question, 'Final Fantasy Gaiden: Seiken Densetsu Original Sound Version' (I guess that's the one you meant) bears that name, so we use it as the display title for the album page.

Since we're primarily an English language website we'll use the English title, if there is one, as the display title even if it may cause some confusion for people more used to the original title. If you prefer to see original titles over the 'display' titles though, you can go into the site preferences (via the 'gear' icon at the top right of any page) and change "Title / Name Language" to 'Original'.

Additionally though, having the same popup showing the original names of artists that we have might be useful for 'products represented' as well.

[Hellacia]

The album title and the represented product don't have to match exactly in name because there really isn't a "correct" name to call something, it's just what different countries call it. Like seanne said, this site was created by and is largely used and maintained by English speakers, so the product represented giving the English name of a game (if there is one) is fine. Maybe I'm biased because I'm an English speaker and played NA releases of games, but... whatever :p

I think that because the product represented is in English, we can "afford" to have album titles that are romanized. I don't agree with what I believe is still a currently accepted guideline:

If the game has an official english name, you may use it instead of the romanized Japanese name (Art of Fighting instead of Ryouko no Ken).

To me this doesn't make sense because this really isn't the title of the album in any country or in any form. In some country, yes, the game Ryouko no Ken is called Art of Fighting. But this album has one name and that is Ryouko no Ken. So, I think we should call it that. If there's English on it, like the Sword of Mana Premium Soundtrack, then we can put that in the English field, sure. But just totally replacing the only title of an album with one that matches up with our localized name for the game doesn't make much sense to me. And I feel that, because a search of the game's name will yield results including that album based on our product fields, we don't have to do that.

[Phonograph]

...
Since we're primarily an English language website we'll use the English title, if there is one, as the display title even if it may cause some confusion for people more used to the original title. If you prefer to see original titles over the 'display' titles though, you can go into the site preferences (via the 'gear' icon at the top right of any page) and change "Title / Name Language" to 'Original'.

Additionally though, having the same popup showing the original names of artists that we have might be useful for 'products represented' as well.

there are two problems (sort of) about that
first is afaik it's like the only vgm/etc site currently active, and because of that, the site should be more "international" and avoid sectarianism (english, in the way to think releases)
second could be corrected or improved in the way what I've already seen a lot of titles bad-ordered (english in romaji field, jap in romaji, etc)
a textarea for all titles was a bad idea, even with the left help, it's messed up

[Hellacia]

I think we care less about our image of being "international" and "non-sectarianism" and more about making this website easily accessible to its primary userbase. At least, this is what I think of us. Even though I only made an account recently I've been using VGMdb since it started. I remember the announcement for it on Gamingforce (I was like wth is happening to GMR oh noes). It's always been about making the knowledge of VGM accessible to overseas enthusiasts, and I don't want that to change just to try and beef up some image to an overall pretty small group of people interested enough to look into game music soundtracks. Hopefully I'm not the only one that feels this way :)

(Later edit: because we included product fields in this discussion, which I think just ended up confusing things, I'm currently unsure if you're talking about using the English title for products or album titles. In some way I find it bizarre to use a title for an album other than its only actual title, but it does relieve confusion for those trying to hunt it down. At the same time, now with product fields, we can relieve that confusion in a better way and so I think album titles should be their original title and we should always use the English title for a product if one exists. Hope that makes sense.)

And the text area for titles in different languages wasn't a bad idea, it was the only way to make anything remotely searchable for people that didn't go looking up the Japanese name of everything just to be able to find it. Now, like I said, we have the product entries to really help that along by being able to search something's English name and be brought to a product page for it listing CDs containing music from that product. We've come a long way from the beginning is really all that says. It seems superfluous now because we have things like product entries, but that started recently. We're spoiled now :p

[Phonograph]

if I think the textarea is a bad idea, that's mainly because of the format used for (album) titles -I explain
you can have a 1st title, a 2nd title, 1 or 2 CR, then a 3rd title (you could consider a 4th or 5th title)
but do you see that on the main page? no, it's like these CR are non-existent
so what's the point of that? I'm not even certain that you can have that info without "editing" the album itself

plus, that display/original/etc format is sometimes not respected and not corrected
maybe with a color system or icons (except for display title), it'd make the things clearer and give a purpose to that format

(same remark about lyricists, jan code and whatever other hidden info)

[Hellacia]

I think there's still some things I'm not understanding. Sorry. First of all I don't know what CR stands for. Look, line 1 is the display name. If the official name is different than our display name, we include line 2. Line 3 is for romanizing the title. This (http://vgmdb.net/album/345) is an excellent example of those 3 things. Lines 4+ are for anything else. I guess we use lines 4+ when we want to include Japanese characters that technically aren't on the soundtrack - like if the "official" name were something like 玉繭物語2 ～滅びの蟲～ ORIGINAL SOUNDTRACK and オリジナル・サウンドトラック was actually never written. Then we could put 玉繭物語2 ～滅びの蟲～ オリジナル・サウンドトラック to aid in searches. Like I said about the multiple titles already:

And the text area for titles in different languages wasn't a bad idea, it was the only way to make anything remotely searchable for people that didn't go looking up the Japanese name of everything just to be able to find it.

This is true for Japanese people wanting to search something whose original name isn't in Japanese. We can add a title that's in Japanese so that if they were to search for it, we don't just say "screw off and learn how to input the English title in Latin alphabet." And so we don't say to English speakers "screw off and get IDE or some shit and learn how to input Japanese characters and basically learn Japanese just so you can search some game soundtracks on a website."

[Phonograph]

CR: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carriage_return

I think you don't get what I mean, I don't discuss about if those titles must exist or something
I discuss about the fact it's not used properly by certain users, and thus the order of titles is messed up and doesn't match the actual format

[Hellacia]

Oh, well, shoot Phonograph, a lot of stuff isn't going to be done correctly by certain users. That's why all the rest of us are here to fix their mistakes and tell them "next time, do it this way." If every website took a functionality of theirs and said "well we shouldn't do it this way because some people do it wrong" then there wouldn't be a website in existence today that has any sort of functionality at all. Not to be a jerk, but this is supposed to be about a discussion about how we want the titles done, not a discussion about the users that do the titles wrong. You can't come up with a method of doing titles that someone isn't going to do wrong.

Also, thanks for explaining the carriage return, now I see what you mean. We have a first and second title, some carriage returns and then what is essentially a fourth or fifth title. Those are there for searching, so I'm not sure we want them to be displayed. (Cosmetically maybe we should only display the first title, but that's not something I care to discuss.)

[Secret Squirrel]

(Discussion pulled from here (http://vgmdb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9233)

Well, I do agree about removing "Innovation".

We may be moving towards using Romaji as the display titles, but I still think it's contentious. It would be simpler (and some might say more correct) to drop from 3 titles to 2, and always use the full Romaji title. If there is any English or western text on the album cover, then the Romaji title is replaced with that. We probably don't really need any alternate titles beyond 2, as that seems to cause too much confusion. It's a simple set of rules for two lines that is really easy to follow. I'm not sure I like this proposal however.

[dancey]

And have no English translation for the title? That seems counter productive and counter intuitive. Romaji is only appropriate for vocal songs or games/series without western releases. It bothers me to no end to see all the ghibli titles in romaji as default. I don't understand the reasoning for defaulting to romaji titles when we make such a concerted effort to translate and correlate track titles between various sources.

[Myrkul]

Not the right place to discuss about this (use the title guideline please).
We should move this to the appropriate thread.

Well i don't know, i am semi-agree with you dancey, especially since the product linking (that only shows the localised name) there's something wrong behing all our logics.

Though i still think we should reflete the origin of the soundtrack on the title.
If we translate everything or use the localisation of the title, how could we differentiate foreign prints (Baten Kaitos: Eternal Wings and the Lost Ocean (http://vgmdb.net/album/8207) & Baten Kaitos: Owaranai Tsubasa to Ushinawareta Umi (http://vgmdb.net/album/1050))

But yet there is still no standardization in the database.
All the Japanese Zelda stuff have been translated, but i think we are all reluctant to use [example] "Fatal Fury 2" for the current Garou Densetsu 2 (http://vgmdb.net/album/1139) entry.

Just make a big poll and let's decide once and for all what should we do.

[Kaleb.G]

There should be a more objective way of doing this. The actual "display title" should be determined based on user preference.

I suggest making an album title table with the following fields:
ALBUM_TITLE_ID
ALBUM_ID
OFFICIAL (bool flag)
LANGUAGE
TITLE

OFFICIAL is a boolean. It states if this title is listed on the album proper (or by publisher correction).

LANGUAGE can either be a code or a reference key to a master language table. It will specify either "Japanese" (Kanji/Hiragana/Katakana), "Romaji", "English", "German", "French", "Korean", etc. If the title contains a mix of languages, it could be assigned to a "Mixed" language, or we could just pick one that is most prominent.

[EDIT: This table has a many-to-one relationship to the album table. This means you can have multiple titles, and even multiple official titles.]

THEN, the user can choose what they want to see first as the "display title" based on their preferred order of combined LANGUAGE and OFFICAL statuses. For example, my own setting might be:
A. English (official)
B. English (unofficial)
C. Romaji (official)
D. Romaji (unofficial)
E. Japanese (official)

One of you might opt instead for something like:
A. English (official)
B. Romaji (official)
C. Romaji (unofficial)
D. English (unofficial)
E. Japanese (official)

This may create more overhead with DB calls, though we could possibly find ways to optimize this. Perhaps we only have two settings:

1. Preferred Language: "English", "Japanese", etc.
2. Title Priority: "Preferred Language", "Official Title"

Choosing "English" & "Preferred Language" would be like my first example for my own setting, whereas choosing "English" & "Official Title" would be like my second example that one of you might choose.

[Hellacia]

Well, it would solve the display problem, though I think we'd all still find a way to argue over what the "official" title is :tpg:

[Zorbfish]

Yes, that is the real problem worth addressing but ultimately too divisive to solve.

[Kaleb.G]

Well, it would solve the display problem, though I think we'd all still find a way to argue over what the "official" title is :tpg:
Not so. With my proposition, there can be multiple official titles. Anything that is listed on the album or by the publisher is deemed official.

[Hellacia]

Oh, I see... maybe I don't understand your example then? Because you just have

English (official)
Romaji (official)
Japanese (official)

and so forth, broken down by languages. This would make giving the official Japanese title for CREID impossible - is it クリイド 光田康典&ミレニアル・フェア (http://vgmdb.net/db/covers.php?do=view&cover=2804), or クリイド ゼノギアス アレンジヴァージョン (http://vgmdb.net/db/covers.php?do=view&cover=2812)?

[Kaleb.G]

This would make giving the official Japanese title for CREID impossible - is it クリイド 光田康典&ミレニアル・フェア (http://vgmdb.net/db/covers.php?do=view&cover=2804), or クリイド ゼノギアス アレンジヴァージョン (http://vgmdb.net/db/covers.php?do=view&cover=2812)?
So basically Katakana+Kanji vs. all Katakana? They'd both be official. Perhaps we could have some alternate language entries as well, such as:

Japanese (official) <= [first title goes here]
Japanese Katakana (official) <= [second title goes here]

Or we could just have a catch-all "Alternative" language for instances that don't fit the mold.

EDIT: But in the case of CREID, "Yasunori Mitsuda & Millennial Fair" is the artist name, not part of the album title. This is the standard for most non-soundtrack albums (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/50/Sgt._Pepper%27s_Lonely_Hearts_Club_Band.jpg), and it is exactly what is happening here.

EDIT 2: I forgot you were one of the people who supported me on this, so you know the drill then.

[Secret Squirrel]

This is an interesting idea, though I don't have a feeling for what we'd put in the "official" vs "unofficial" branches. The main problem with this isn't technical (tables query, etc.), it's that we have 32,000 albums that we would need to edit and expand to fix into the new system. That migration might have to be done manually. It's a major change, similar to the proposed track-linking system in that it requires simultaneous support of "old vgmdb" and "new vgmdb" until they are all moved over.

But if we don't do something like that, we still have this core divisive issue.

Standardize Display Title to use Romanized titles using an offiical romanization scheme (maybe Hepburn)
Standardize to favor an English release title where there is one, Romanized if there isn't. Also, translate non-title text like Ongakushu -> Music Collection
No standard (what we are using now)


We are 3 right now. 1 and 2 both have things I don't like. For 1:

All "Genso Suikoden" -> Suikoden
Many "Dracula" -> Castlevania
(insert more examples here)


For 2:

Spirited Away Image Album -> Sen to Chihiro to Kamikakushi Imēji Arubamu
Preorder Campaign Drama CD -> Yoyaku Kyanpēn Tokuten Dorama CD
(I can find plenty more examples for this)


So, I'm not satisfied with either way. All of this stuff effects what you see in search results, collections, and marketplace pages, so it's important. Obviously Kaleb's suggestion gives more choices, and maybe the problem is that we don't have enough titles at present to accommodate what everone wants.

[Hellacia]

So basically Katakana+Kanji vs. all Katakana? They'd both be official.

It wasn't about kanji or kana, it was about one title vs. another. Multiple entries for a single language would fix it. Not sure what you'd call the different choices though - maybe just Japanese 1 and Japanese 2 :)

[Kaleb.G]

This is an interesting idea, though I don't have a feeling for what we'd put in the "official" vs "unofficial" branches.
Simply, anything that is printed on the album art or specified by the publisher would be official. All derivations/romanizations of such things that do not appear on the album art or via the publisher are unofficial.

The main problem with this isn't technical (tables query, etc.), it's that we have 32,000 albums that we would need to edit and expand to fix into the new system. That migration might have to be done manually. It's a major change, similar to the proposed track-linking system in that it requires simultaneous support of "old vgmdb" and "new vgmdb" until they are all moved over.
I'm sure I could write some crazy queries to do it all systematically. Want me to draft something up?

But if we don't do something like that, we still have this core divisive issue.

Standardize Display Title to use Romanized titles using an offiical romanization scheme (maybe Hepburn)
Standardize to favor an English release title where there is one, Romanized if there isn't. Also, translate non-title text like Ongakushu -> Music Collection
No standard (what we are using now)

With my proposition, the display title would be chosen by the user, though there would indeed need to be a default selection. I say we could leave that part up to a vote.

Here's another possible idea for selecting the "display title". Up in the header of the site we could have a language dropbox or some selection of flags. The selection would be stored in a cookie, and allow users who are not logged in to pick a preference.

It wasn't about kanji or kana, it was about one title vs. another. Multiple entries for a single language would fix it. Not sure what you'd call the different choices though - maybe just Japanese 1 and Japanese 2 :)
Yes, my proposition could allow for multiple official entries for the same language.

In fact, it would be needed anyway, because there are many cases where a game released in North America has a different title from the same game released in Europe, even though they would both be in English.

Though, when I think of it, all of this unofficial album naming based on regionized game titles overlaps with the product system a lot... to the point where the whole notion should either be dropped, or there could be some integration between them.

[Secret Squirrel]

Well, I don't need to see queries, because the only reasonable way to migrate is to take our 3 most commonly used title lines and map them directly to 3 of the lines in your proposal, probably [official English, official Japanese, official romanized], unless we want to declare them all unofficial until they are hand-checked.

I think what would help would be to take a few albums and gives some examples of what would go in each of the proposed title lines.

Another curiosity. I wonder if anyone actually uses the Japanese or Romaji display titles as their default titles within our current user preference selections.

[Xenofan 29A]

I wonder if anyone actually uses the Japanese or Romaji display titles as their default titles within our current user preference selections.

I use Japanese (actually original language), but it trips me up when the title is in something other than Japanese or English. I can't read Chinese, Korean, or Russian at all.

[Kaleb.G]

After further review, it would probably be best for the "official" boolean to be paired with another bool called "primary", as you will see below. There would be a restriction to allow only one "official primary" title per language as well as only one "unofficial primary" title per language. There can be as many "alternate" (opposite of "primary") titles as you want. Optionally, you could combine both booleans into a single field.

Well, I don't need to see queries, because the only reasonable way to migrate is to take our 3 most commonly used title lines and map them directly to 3 of the lines in your proposal, probably [official English, official Japanese, official romanized], unless we want to declare them all unofficial until they are hand-checked.
I think it's safe to say more titles are official than unofficial. It would be easier to go this way. Though if you're worried about inaccuracy, you could always have an extra field boolean for temporary use called "unknown", or something of the sort.

I think what would help would be to take a few albums and gives some examples of what would go in each of the proposed title lines.

LC-1713~4 (http://vgmdb.net/album/10018)
Romaji [official primary]: Akumajo-Dracula Ubawareta kokuin Original Soundtrack
Japanese [official primary]: 悪魔城ドラキュラ 奪われた刻印 オリジナルサウンドトラック
English [unofficial primary]: Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia Original Soundtrack

SSCX-10018 (http://vgmdb.net/album/5)
English [official primary]: CREID
Japanese [official primary]: クリイド
English [official alternate]: CREID Yasunori Mitsuda & Millennial Fair
Japanese [official alternate]: クリイド 光田康典&ミレニアル・フェア
Yasunori's website lists the album title as "CREID", so we know the rest is just the artist, but we have those titles here as "official alternate" for searchability. It's possible we could call them "unofficial", but they are technically on the albums, so it could go either way.

SSCX-10004 (http://vgmdb.net/album/3407)
English [official primary]: FINAL FANTASY VII ORIGINAL SOUND TRACK
Japanese [official primary]: ファイナルファンタジーⅦ オリジナル・サウンドトラック
English [official alternate]: "FINAL FANTASY VII" Original Sound Track
This is a case where there are two official English titles (compare front with back spine) that are variations of each other. This is where the primary flag comes in handy. Now, if you wanted to alter the titles slightly for capitalization or whatnot, that's OK too.

Keep in mind the ordering of these titles is irrelevant, because it will eventually be based on user preferences.

EDIT: If you have specific albums you'd like to discuss, let me know.

[Myrkul]

I think this particular line should be removed from the album entry guide as it's pretty much confusing.
If the game has an official english name, you may use it instead of the romanized Japanese name (Art of Fighting instead of Ryouko no Ken).

I think most of us are using romaji for non-any romanized text on scans as a display title.

Generally speaking the guide is out of date.

[Secret Squirrel]

I'll pull it out of the instructions to avoid confusion, though I don't think this should mean that it's time to go through the database and edit all our current submissions. I'm still hesitant to make an official call on this. Also, I should apologize for not pursuing the discussion on Kaleb's proposal back in April.

[Kaleb.G]

No problem. My method was mainly meant to allow for flexibility. Really, it doesn't matter much to me what you decide on as long as we're consistent about it. Also, the official rules should be listed directly on the album add/edit page(s) so there is no confusion. They should always be kept up to date.