Organizing the addition of anime albums

[Gigablah]

This thread will do for now, pending a restructuring of the discussion forums (most likely I'll move artist/organization/event discussion up one forum level). I'll also have to modify the code to create discussion threads for albums in the appropriate parent forum.

Anyway, since anime album submissions are rapidly increasing, here's where we attempt to bring some order to the process. Ideally, submissions should be made by people who own a physical copy of the album for maximum accuracy, since that's one of the main goals of this site. Not to say that you can't piece together information from online research, if you can demonstrate that you've done the homework.


To start off, I'll be calling dibs on the Ah! My Goddess franchise, since I own most of the albums. Compiling a list soon.

[LiquidAcid]

I just wanted to say that I really like the new anime additions to the DB, especially since this increases the amount of Yoko Kanno albums a _lot_! :)

[KeyLogic]

I'm very pleased that VGM/AMdb is headed this direction. :p Can't wait to see how it develops and what new people it'll attract. :D

[Blitz Lunar]

I'm stoked.
I don't legitimately own any anime releases unfortunately so my help will be somewhat limited, but I'll try and pitch in where I can. I'm also trying to get hold of a big list of releases from someone. I'll post here if/when I do.

[mercenary09]

Haha, I feel like I gave it a small push for people to add more. I know it already had like ~980 before, though. I hope it spreads out to more people to help out, though.

With so many not here, it'd be a hassle for a limited amount of people to be the only submitters, but I guess for completeness sake, it may be hard for that. I'm looking forward to seeing how this changes vgmdb (even if it upsets the enthusiast diehard vgm fans around (lol)).

[Secret Squirrel]

We are going to be very busy once the word gets around that we are populating the anime albums. I think that staff and experienced submitters are going to have to provide some mentoring for new submitters. Maybe it makes sense to coordinate that here so that we aren't all sending Private Messages to the same member.

The crux of this is quickly identifying those who are good and making them better, while weeding out those who don't have the mettle, and asking them to sit on the sidelines, at least until most of the popular stuff is done.

I also want to add a couple of new staff members who are devoted to anime music.

[Dag]

I'm all for more anime albums but I just hope the focus of this site doesn't become so anime that vgm contributions halt...

It may be worth to alter a little the color for promo+anime btw. And some warning/guidelines to new users about romaji/english tracklists taken indiscriminately from the interwebs (not only because of quality concerns, but also permissions and stuff).

[Lowe]

I was thinking about that last night. I don't know if this is possible, but I had an idea where if you go to vgmdb.net it would list only game related sountracks. If you go to another url (some animeost related one, obviously) it would only list anime related soundtracks. It would be the same site, but with different default filters on each url. Again, no idea if this is possible just an idea I had.

Now as for submissions, I'm all for quality control, but where do you draw the line? Do you want accuracy down to the composer, arranger etc. (The basic stuff) Or do you want it down to who did flutes on track 17?

[AcidBeast]

Or do you want it down to who did flutes on track 17?
If the information is given, clearly yes. Flute players are also artists who deserve recognition. (and it's very interesting, too!) Because of the huge amount of albums (and lacking information namely booklet scans) there're always the ones with incomplete artists lists, but that's the way things go, be it due to ignorance of the japanese language, missed entries or other reasons.

[Lowe]

I can understand why some people find that information useful, but it's all about priorities to me. I don't think that information should be considered mandatory and while there is no rules saying it is, it certainly feels that way.

[Ira]

Yeah, providing as much credit and information on an album as you can is encouraged.

[Gigablah]

Eventually we'd want information filters on the album page level as well.

[zzeroparticle]

Talk about a sudden stream of anime soundtracks out of nowhere. Guess this gives me a reason to stick around the office to scan the albums that I do have and I'm really looking forward to this taking off.

The biggest thing that I'm struggling with is the notes section since it's never clear sometimes how it should be formatted (and for that matter, I don't know Japanese) so a bit of guidance there could be useful. I've mostly been looking at other albums in the database and using that as a guideline, but if there's a method that should be followed, let me know so I don't pick up any bad submission habits.

[seanne]

The biggest thing that I'm struggling with is the notes section since it's never clear sometimes how it should be formatted (and for that matter, I don't know Japanese) so a bit of guidance there could be useful. I've mostly been looking at other albums in the database and using that as a guideline, but if there's a method that should be followed, let me know so I don't pick up any bad submission habits.

There's no particular formatting you need to follow for the notes field, typically one can just go by how the credits are listed in the booklet and type them out to mirror the formatting used - which would account for the variation between entries. And if there's something you can't add because it's in Japanese you can make a post in the album thread and perhaps someone else will be able to do it.

Blah: How should we classify Image albums? As far as I can see we need a new option for this since none of the existing ones feel quite right.

[Secret Squirrel]

I'm all for more anime albums but I just hope the focus of this site doesn't become so anime that vgm contributions halt...

It may be worth to alter a little the color for promo+anime btw. And some warning/guidelines to new users about romaji/english tracklists taken indiscriminately from the interwebs (not only because of quality concerns, but also permissions and stuff).

I worry about this too, especially for all the people who use the site, but don't read the forums or pay attention to the front page. They might see it as a gradual degradation if they don't understand how to use the filters. I agree on your other concerns too. We'll want to keep our quality high here, and prevent all the weeabo translations from corrupting our info.

What color modifications are you recommending? I'm not a big fan of the Anime Green, though I don't really like the Doujin Brown either.

[Secret Squirrel]

The biggest thing that I'm struggling with is the notes section since it's never clear sometimes how it should be formatted (and for that matter, I don't know Japanese) so a bit of guidance there could be useful. I've mostly been looking at other albums in the database and using that as a guideline, but if there's a method that should be followed, let me know so I don't pick up any bad submission habits.

There's no standard. Most of us have our own styles, but it's good as long as it presents the information neatly and directly. I usually do things like this (http://vgmdb.net/album/18056).

[Secret Squirrel]

I was thinking further about this, since I woke up early and couldn't fall back asleep.

I think we need to preserve our brands, and keep the presentation of VGMdb separated from VGMdb-Anime, but yet under the same umbrella. This really boils down to having separate front pages with separate filters.

Guests who visit the VGMdb front page will only see updates and news about the VGM portion of the site. Likewise, visitors to VGMdb-Anime only see anime stuff. The filters are set in each spot to exclude everything else.

Content is not duplicated. A VGM visitor and an Anime visitor see the same album pages, etc. Discographies and Labels are never filtered, so visitors can eventually work their way onto pages from other genres. It should hopefully be clear that these won't show up in searches or on the frontpage.

However, album search results and album browsing are still filtered just like now, but your filter is based on which site "portal" you visited last. You just have two filters now, one for VGMdb and one for VGMdb-anime (and we could further restrict it, so that only the category is duplicated, but the rest of the settings are shared.) You can modify these as you wish, and can turn on the anime albums at VGMdb if you'd like. The default when you start as a new user though, should just be VGM.

There may be some flaws in this idea, so we should discuss it more.

[KeyLogic]

I think we need preserve our brands, and keep the presentation of VGMdb separated from VGMdb-Anime, but yet under the same umbrella. This really boils down to having separate front pages with separate filters.

LOL. Bad timing for the thread that I just posted about a new site header. :p Time for KeyLogic to do some more tweaking.

[Gigablah]

Yeah, to build upon SS' idea, here's what I'm thinking for the homepage - split it into

http://vgmdb.net/game
http://vgmdb.net/anime
http://vgmdb.net/home (for agnostics)

This is the perfect time to get rid of our smelly /db/main.php address, too.

[Blitz Lunar]

OK, here's the large list of anime-related releases I mentioned. hopefully useful to people. it will certainly take a long time to add all these...

http://www.shakal.net/lunar/temp/animeosts.txt

[Secret Squirrel]

Is that Sonryu's list? It's got about 7000 entries. I'll throw out there that I think that once you count everything the way we do for VGM, there will be at least 20,000 entries.

That estimate is still a little low, given that we've got around 16,000 VGM entries, and anime music has been around longer.

[Lowe]

That list is huge. Is that someones collection? but yes there is a lot to add. Especially when you consider all those OPs and EDs, too.

[Blitz Lunar]

SS: yeah I realise it isn't all the anime albums ever, but it's a starting point, ne?

[Another Soundscape]

I'm upset by this new initiative!






(joke aside, have fun working on this guys!)

[seanne]

Yeah, to build upon SS' idea, here's what I'm thinking for the homepage - split it into

http://vgmdb.net/game
http://vgmdb.net/anime
http://vgmdb.net/home (for agnostics)

This is the perfect time to get rid of our smelly /db/main.php address, too.

Have you thought about giving doujin its own portal? I think we already have quite a few people who have little interest in this part of the database, as well as many who are mainly interested in it. I personally see vgm, anime and doujin (especially when you consider the j-core stuff we list) as three equally separate subcategories.

[Dag]

I like the multiple homepages idea a lot, specially if you separate filters (say I have filters on but I want to quickly check an anime album without tweaking them, I could use the anime homepage).

And maybe now it's a good time to look into per-track credits, before +10000 anime albums are added and you have to go back and 'fix' them...

What color modifications are you recommending? I'm not a big fan of the Anime Green, though I don't really like the Doujin Brown either.

I guess darker/variation of yellow or such so people without filters can tell anime promos apart. But on a second thought there are too many colors already, and new anime visitors may be confused by the Anime Green. Perhaps we could discuss colors along with the current release types.

[Ira]

Have you thought about giving doujin its own portal? I think we already have quite a few people who have little interest in this part of the database, as well as many who are mainly interested in it. I personally see vgm, anime and doujin (especially when you consider the j-core stuff we list) as three equally separate subcategories.

I think it's something that's more or less planned (or at least the idea was floating around when I asked Blah about it last October,) but it's something that they want to do in stages, so that the amount of submissions doesn't get too overwhelming all at once. Though, I don't know how much of an increase of submissions we would get if we officially accepted doujin work, the big thing is the inclusion of anime, which we are now experiencing.

[Lucy]

after AcidBeasts suggestion I think I should ask you about the submissions for american produced animation series/films.

Are we allowed to add them to the database?

[Secret Squirrel]

I'm not sure about the answer to this question. It depends on what anime music fans want, once we build up a community here. For now, I think we should stick with non-mainstream Western stuff (i.e., Moomins is fine, but don't add all the Disney/Pixar albums until we have defined our role.)

[Lowe]

I agree with holding off on the mainstream Western stuff. Actually, I'd rather it wasn't on vgmdb at all. If it does get added though, I think we would need a seperate category for it because I and I'm sure many others would want to filter it out.

[mercenary09]

It's probably easier to find out information and credits for western animations anyways. Given it's all in english, it has to be somewhere. Most non-western releases are most likely going to be a mix of english/japanese/??? and will need a translation of sort somwhere.

At least vgm encompasses all of vgm, so I don't have to feel like I'm being a hypocrite against animation soundtracks, but anime soundtracks seem to have a lot more than I've heard in some western soundtrack release. I just notice they usually have vocals that stand out strong. Maybe just a Disney thing.
I'm not really against it, but then I'd hope we'd have a way to distinguish anime soundtracks from it.

[Lucy]

I'm not sure about the answer to this question. It depends on what anime music fans want, once we build up a community here. For now, I think we should stick with non-mainstream Western stuff (i.e., Moomins is fine, but don't add all the Disney/Pixar albums until we have defined our role.)

What do you mean with all the Disney-Pixar albums? It's not like that I would like to add every Disney Neoteenie album to the archive. ;)

My suggestions would be Disney Albums, like the official TaleSpin Soundtrack, The Disney Afternoon Vocal CD and the Lion King Bootleg OST. The first two ones are even for today standards incredible rare. On the other hand, what's with these another animated classics from Don Bluth? I think "An American Tail" would be a worthy addition too.

[Myrkul]

I think it's time to give a proper definition to what "anime" is and in fact which kind of album can fit in the database..
I see you talk about "non-mainstream", but what is it exactly?
Are you talking about what i could call "Cartoons" too ?

I have little to no knowledge on anime, but disney/dreamworks/pixar etc.. are called differently in France, it's "Dessin Animé" and not anime.

The word "Anime" was not really used before the mid 90's, when "Mangas" invaded us.

For now, only Japanese albums could fit?
Must be OVA or films?
Origin of the series must be from Japan or something..?

What about series like the following ones to help me out and give me an idea.. ?
"Space Pirate Captain Harlock" (called Albator in France)
"The Mysterious Cities of Gold" (called Les Mystérieuses Cités d'or in France)
"The Littles"
"Candy Candy"
"Thundercats"
"Saint Seiya"
"City Hunter"
"Yu-Gi-Oh"

[LiquidAcid]

anime != animation, at least for me.

So that excludes everything from Disney, Pixar and Dreamworks that was drawn, rendered, etc. - and probably anything else that doesn't fit into the typical "japanese anime" category.

If we allow all types of animation then we're facing huge problems. "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" e.g. - the Wiki describes it as "live-action/animation hybrid" <- so how should be deal with that soundtrack?

[Lucy]

"anime" is the japanese term for animation from Japan, it's a official name for the whole branch. In the western regions/countries we always called it "cartoon" or for high quality productions "animations".

On the other I'll have to notice that in the case of Disney Afternoon Series most of the classic ones have been done by TMS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TMS_Entertainment). They also did some other wellknown shows you know, just check the link. We don't have to add everything but it would not hurt us to expaned the database at last with the most important CDs. VGMdb is the best archive for such things, I don't see no reason for holding back - as long as we have some kind of "cartoon"-rules.

[Cam]

after AcidBeasts suggestion I think I should ask you about the submissions for american produced animation series/films.

Are we allowed to add them to the database?

Anime != cartoon.
It's easy enough to find information on western stuff. And most cartoons don't have any music worth mention anyways.

[LiquidAcid]

@Lucy: That's how the term is used by the japanese themself. They use it for their own animation and everything that comes from the outside.

If you ask the generic european or american what an 'anime' is, the answer is probably going to be something like 'cartoon series/movie from japan'.

"Lion King", "The Beauty and the Beast" - that's not anime for me. It's a "Zeichentrickfilm" (animated feature).

While I love the scores for both movies (Hans Zimmer and Alan Menken) it's not something I think should belong in VGMdb.

[AcidBeast]

When asked I thought that american/western scores for animes (like DBZ) are the topic of discussion, not western animation. I don't like the idea of having all those western scores in the database, I'd rather have it limited to japanese animation only. Although, people sure might argue "if animation, then all animation" since vgmdb is not only restricted to japanese video game music but also includes western scores.


What about series like the following ones to help me out and give me an idea.. ?
"Space Pirate Captain Harlock" (called Albator in France)
"Candy Candy"
"Saint Seiya"
"City Hunter"
"Yu-Gi-Oh"
No question about these since they're original all-japanese productions.


"The Mysterious Cities of Gold" (called Les Mystérieuses Cités d'or in France)
"The Littles"
"Thundercats"
Unlike those three candidates. Some were produced in Japan, some co-produced, some only directed by japanese ppl but wholly produced in e.g. the USA. So, what makes anime anime? The production cast, the drawing style etc. etc.? We're really in need for a watertight definition.

By the way, we already have such a moot case in our database: Alfred J. Kwak (http://vgmdb.net/album/19197)

[Blitz Lunar]

i feel similar to you guys about this. i don't think western animation soundtracks really fit on the site, but i can't help thinking that rejecting them is a double standard - the banner image uses the vague term "visual arts" as opposed to "anime" more specifically. maybe that needs to be changed?

[Lucy]

Some were produced in Japan, some co-produced, some only directed by japanese ppl but wholly produced in e.g. the USA. So, what makes anime anime? The production cast, the drawing style etc. etc.? We're really in need for a watertight definition.

By the way, we already have such a moot case in our database: Alfred J. Kwak (http://vgmdb.net/album/19197)

And that's the whole point what you guys are missing. Take Alfred J. Kwak as example: It's an european character made as animation in japan. So, what should we do now? Is it a anime or not? According the japaneses it is one but here in europe it's not. Even Herman van Veen doesn't consider it as anime, just as a cartoon. And was it to you guys now, hmm?

I think it should be allowed to add them here with some individual restrictions. And I disagree with you all on the term, that there're enough sites our there for american soundtracks. Most of them are not well enough listed or just a stupid copy-paste work with no informations to the CD itself and just the cover or a hasty tracklist.

Edit:
LiquidAcid: Your argumentation is a bit fishy. For example, let's take the old well known cartoons from our local tv, like Biene Maya, Nils Holgersson, Wickie - and so on. These are basically european productions from Arena and japanese companies. Nnobody really cared about their origins until the anime boom started in germany - and suddenly they've been famed to be real animes...?

[Lowe]

Your examples are what I consider to be cartoons. What most of us consider Anime is very different in style and that's where we should draw the line.

I don't have a problem with your cartoon soundtracks being added, but I want to be able to filter them out.

[LiquidAcid]

@Lucy: I actually didn't know that Wickie, Biene Maya and a lot of other series were produced by japanese animation companies. Taking that into consideration you're absolutely right about classifying them as anime (from my POV).

This makes drawing the line even harder. I have to admit that I wouldn't know where to draw it. Distinguishing by style is something very subjective, I doubt you can write a good ruleset for this...

[Lowe]

Just because it was produced by a Japanese animation company doesn't mean they used a Japanese style, and actually if you ask me there is a night and day difference between what I consider Anime and what I consider cartoons.

It's pretty easy to put a ruleset up actually, if it looks like a cartoon don't submit it..

http://i43.tinypic.com/2chnz2o.jpg

vs

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/3592/fdeathnote43m6e7c011q.th.jpg (http://img200.imageshack.us/i/fdeathnote43m6e7c011q.jpg/)

Oh you're right it's so similar, I'm having trouble figuring out which one should be considered Anime. :rolleyes:

[Lucy]

Just because it was produced by a Japanese animation company doesn't mean they used a Japanese style, and actually if you ask me there is a night and day difference between what I consider Anime and what I consider cartoons.

It's pretty easy to put a ruleset up actually, if it looks like a cartoon don't submit it..

http://i43.tinypic.com/2chnz2o.jpg

vs

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/3592/fdeathnote43m6e7c011q.th.jpg (http://img200.imageshack.us/i/fdeathnote43m6e7c011q.jpg/)

Oh you're right it's so similar, I'm having trouble figuring out which one should be considered Anime. :rolleyes:

Keep it down for a second, please..

Most of these series were joint- or commissions projects. And yes, Wickie can be considered as a Anime according the ANN Database Entry (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=1246).

And just for history lessons, the very first anime and mangas were not on the standards of today:

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/03/01/astroboy1307_070301032259136_wideweb__300x350.jpg

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/2743/doraemon2.jpg

Let's go back to the topic. I really think it would hurt if we add wordwide animation soundtracks to the db. In my eyes some of you are just to ignorant and nitpicking about it. Actually I can use the same gretchen-question for the doujin albums, and argue with the point that american doujin albums are not real authentic japanese ones and should be banned from VGMdb. And the first ones should be the TheOneUps. ;>

I think you know what I'm try to point out, or?

[seanne]

I don't see why this category should have different grounds for eligibility than our other categories. Why should our intention be to catalog japanese animation specifically?

[Another Soundscape]

I don't see why this category should have different grounds for eligibility than our other categories. Why should our intention be to catalog japanese animation specifically?

Truth. We're not covering Japanese VGM only for example. As long as people are willing to add, why not?

[Lowe]

Well, anosou you don't like Anime in the db at all, but luckily for you, you can just filter it out. However, if all that crap from Disney starts polluting the Anime side of things and there is no way to filter it out... ugh.

[LiquidAcid]

OK, then what about "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" example? How much animation does a movie need so the soundtrack becomes "worthy" for inclusion in VGMdb?

Another question: Are rendered (see Pixar) animation movies considered 'anime'?

@Lowe: Could you stop calling Disney compositions crap. Just because you don't like their scores / soundtracks doesn't mean it's crap.

[Lucy]

Well, anosou you don't like Anime in the db at all, but luckily for you, you can just filter it out. However, if all that crap from Disney starts polluting the Anime side of things and there is no way to filter it out... ugh.

It's not just a "disney-thing" we could so many rarities to the db, like the Futurama OST or the limited Transformers Movie Soundtrack (uh... Anime, gotcha). This would be really cool.

OK, then what about "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" example? How much animation does a movie need so the soundtrack becomes "worthy" for inclusion in VGMdb?

Another question: Are rendered (see Pixar) animation movies considered 'anime'?

@Lowe: Could you stop calling Disney compositions crap. Just because you don't like their scores / soundtracks doesn't mean it's crap.

I would add Roger Rabbit to the db, regardless of it's status. But on the other hand we really should let the computer animated soundtracks untouched. I think that's a whole new approach.

[Another Soundscape]

OK, then what about "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" example? How much animation does a movie need so the soundtrack becomes "worthy" for inclusion in VGMdb?

Another question: Are rendered (see Pixar) animation movies considered 'anime'?

@Lowe: Could you stop calling Disney compositions crap. Just because you don't like their scores / soundtracks doesn't mean it's crap.

Note that re: VGM it only needs to be vaguely associated to VGM and we even accept original work by VGM composers. How's THAT for a standard ;)

[LiquidAcid]

Then does the soundtrack to 'Avatar' belong here? Large parts are rendered on hardware, so if we consider rendered scenes 'animation' then it does belong here.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not against adding more albums to the DB, but I think we should at least figure out some boundary where animation begins and where it ends. Otherwise you could just add anything here that includes only the tinyiest bit of animation - I'm not sure if that's what we want.

Well, in the end the admins and mod have to decide it :)

@Lowe: Further simplify animation quality and background picture quality from Laputa and you end up with something similar in 'style' to Wickie. So IMHO you're comparing animation quality here, not style.

[Another Soundscape]

Then does the soundtrack to 'Avatar' belong here? Large parts are rendered on hardware, so if we consider rendered scenes 'animation' then it does belong here.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not against adding more albums to the DB, but I think we should at least figure out some boundary where animation begins and where it ends. Otherwise you could just add anything here that includes only the tinyiest bit of animation - I'm not sure if that's what we want.

Well, in the end the admins and mod have to decide it :)

(hence why it should stay video game music database, OH SNAP!)

I agree, but it's really hard. Anime/animation is a sub-genre of movies while games are more of a top-level genre.

[seanne]

OK, then what about "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" example? How much animation does a movie need so the soundtrack becomes "worthy" for inclusion in VGMdb?

This seems like a borderline case. How many cross-over films like this would you say that there are?, I can't imagine there are very many. Personally I'd consider films like this one as live-action featuring a degree of animation - not really enough for it to warrant inclusion in my opinion.

Another question: Are rendered (see Pixar) animation movies considered 'anime'?

But on the other hand we really should let the computer animated soundtracks untouched. I think that's a whole new approach.

This is also a tricky subject, and perhaps eligibility would be best judged on a case-by-case basis. While I don't see a problem with including newer Pixar films (they are still Disney/Pixar style animation films, just using a slightly different technique) or the Final Fantasy movies, I don't think we want to add stuff like Avatar.

[Lowe]

@Lowe: Could you stop calling Disney compositions crap. Just because you don't like their scores / soundtracks doesn't mean it's crap.

I don't even have a problem with the actual uh.. music. Hell, I don't even have a problem with it being added to the db. All I wanted was a way to filter the Disney stuff out.


@Lowe: Further simplify animation quality and background picture quality from Laputa and you end up with something similar in 'style' to Wickie. So IMHO you're comparing animation quality here, not style.

Break almost anything down to it's basics and it will be similar so I don't really agree with that arguement.

[Secret Squirrel]

Luckily it's pretty clear by inspection what was meant to be "animation" and what is live-action. Neither Avatar nor the latest made-for-Scify-Channel CGI monster movie would qualify for that.

[depa]

I think if we consider "anime" like simple cartoons, every form of animation (Disney, japanese, western, ecc...) should be included in the database.
Do you really want to include every tons of native anime compilation on mcs, vinyls, cds of EVERY country of this world? I think it's not simply madness, this is megalomania.

[Secret Squirrel]

I think if we consider "anime" like simple cartoons, every form of animation (Disney, japanese, western, ecc...) should be included in the database.
Do you really want to include every tons of native anime compilation on mcs, vinyls, cds of EVERY country of this world? I think it's not simply madness, this is megalomania.

That sounds like a challenge. Don't forget you are talking to the people who researched and added almost 19,000 albums just because of their relation to video games.

[Lucy]

I think if we consider "anime" like simple cartoons, every form of animation (Disney, japanese, western, ecc...) should be included in the database.
Do you really want to include every tons of native anime compilation on mcs, vinyls, cds of EVERY country of this world? I think it's not simply madness, this is megalomania.

Nah, we will be fine. And nothing tops the japanese anime market anyway.

Secret: So, it's official now...? :>

[LiquidAcid]

@SecretSquirrel: What about Casshern, Immortal and 'Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow' (all released in 2004). Animation of not?

@totally off-topic: Is there any relation between Casshern and the anime series 'Casshern Sins'???

[Kaleb.G]

http://vgmdb.net/game
http://vgmdb.net/anime
http://vgmdb.net/home (for agnostics)
I like this idea. Most of the time I just want to look at game music, but some times I may want to look at anime music, and it's kind of annoying to have to change the filters back and forth every time I want to switch.

We also could make separate branding, subdomains, or even domains while maintaining everything in the same database... Similar to some other sites (http://www.ebgames.com/).

[seanne]

@SecretSquirrel: What about Casshern, Immortal and 'Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow' (all released in 2004). Animation of not?

They are all live action films featuring CG animation, and I think most people would not consider them animation. It's like if an otherwise animated film featured a few sequences of live action, you would still consider it an animation, right?

@totally off-topic: Is there any relation between Casshern and the anime series 'Casshern Sins'???

Yes, both are based on the same original work. You can read more about it here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Human_Casshern).

[Ira]

I'm just going to say I'm opposed to the inclusion of western animation. We do accept video games from everywhere, but there is a great emphasis put on Japanese work and the inclusion of anime (that is to say, Japanese animation) soundtracks is a natural extension of this. Especially since there are a fair amount of composers/artists who are involved in both.

[Secret Squirrel]

Secret: So, it's official now...? :>

I don't think I'm the final decision maker, though I would lean towards it. I think there are a lot of things to work out first.

@SecretSquirrel: What about Casshern, Immortal and 'Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow' (all released in 2004). Animation of not?

@totally off-topic: Is there any relation between Casshern and the anime series 'Casshern Sins'???

Casshern: Live-Action, but eligible under relation to the Casshern anime franchise.
Immortal: I don't know what that is
Sky Captain: Live-Action

We also could make separate branding, subdomains, or even domains while maintaining everything in the same database... Similar to some other sites (http://www.ebgames.com/).

I think we could also add something like vgmdb.net/jp/game and vgmdb.net/jp/anime so that we can also have a Japanese language front-page for each of these.

[Lucy]

I think we could also add something like vgmdb.net/jp/game and vgmdb.net/jp/anime so that we can also have a Japanese language front-page for each of these.

flag icons would be a option too, right?

[LiquidAcid]

Casshern: Live-Action, but eligible under relation to the Casshern anime franchise.
Immortal: I don't know what that is
Sky Captain: Live-Action

OK, so we consider it live-action when at least one human actor appears in the movie/series/etc. ?

Concerning Immortal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immortal_(film)

What about "Werner - Beinhart!". It's a german production and the movie alternates between live-action scenes and animated content. The two scene types never intertwine though, in the sense that you've animated content mixed with live-action cast (at least I don't remember that).

Looks like the english Wiki also has an article ready:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_(comics)

[LiquidAcid]

They are all live action films featuring CG animation, and I think most people would not consider them animation. It's like if an otherwise animated film featured a few sequences of live action, you would still consider it an animation, right?
For me these are rather animations with some of the 'actors' replaced by real human beings. That's especially true for Immortal where animated actors and human actors interact a lot.

[LiquidAcid]

Another tricky case for you SecretSquirrel:
"A Scanner Darkly" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Scanner_Darkly_(film))

Generated from source material that was filmed with live actors, then fed into Rotoshop and animated after that. And it looks very much like anime!

I'm also wondering... what about stopmotion / clay-animation creations, like Wallace & Gromit, Chicken Run, ...

[Lowe]

Honestly, at this point the line has being stretched so far you may aswell allow soundtracks from movies and TV series in general. I know I'd love to have all those sci-fi soundtracks added.

[Secret Squirrel]

Ralph Bakshi's adaptation of the first two books of Lord of the Rings also used live actors for the battle scenes. I'd count these both of animation. Stop-motion, claymation, and silhouette animation should count as animation too. I'd draw the line at puppets/muppets though.

[seanne]

Ideally, submissions should be made by people who own a physical copy of the album for maximum accuracy, since that's one of the main goals of this site.

^I'd like to reiterate this. Basing you submission on anything apart from the original album inserts (or scans thereof) will more often than not result in incorrectness and/or incompleteness.

And if you're not able to decipher any of the names/titles given, please make a forum post about it so that others who may be able to help will be more likely to see it.

[xanadujin]

Just my two cents, but personally I'm not too wild about the idea of including any kind of animation into this site. It's for VGM, and that's why I like it. If the idea does go into affect, I think the two should be as separate as possible. Like a completely different site, run by anime experts. At the very least, the portal idea seems reasonable. But I agree with Kaleb that having to filter all the time just to see what you want would be cumbersome and annoying.

- Justin Pfeiffer

[Gigablah]

How would you handle artist discographies? Making users jump to different sites when they move between album entries and discographies would not make sense.

I'm planning a category switcher located to the top right that'll allow you to switch category filters quickly.

[LiquidAcid]

Japanese VGM and japanese animation are closely tied together. VGM composers score animes and vice-versa, so it doesn't make sense to separate the DBs.

[Lowe]

Japanese VGM and japanese animation are closely tied together. VGM composers score animes and vice-versa, so it doesn't make sense to separate the DBs.

Agreed, but I can understand how people wishing to view VGM only find the filters a nuisance. I think it's a small price to pay though.

[Gigablah]

And I though people wishing to view VGM only would want the filters...

[Lowe]

And I though people wishing to view VGM only would want the filters...

Perhaps the idea of being associated with Anime disgusts them. Kinda like how I feel about the addition of western animation.

[the_miker]

Just my two cents, but personally I'm not too wild about the idea of including any kind of animation into this site. It's for VGM, and that's why I like it. If the idea does go into affect, I think the two should be as separate as possible. Like a completely different site, run by anime experts. At the very least, the portal idea seems reasonable. But I agree with Kaleb that having to filter all the time just to see what you want would be cumbersome and annoying.

What he said. VGMdb is for VGM, and that's why I like it.

VGM is video game music, not anime music. I'm one of those guys who never quite understood why video game music and anime music have to always get lumped together. So they share the same country of origin and a few composers here and there. Using that same logic should we start adding movie and TV (non-animation) soundtracks, Enka, J-pop, J-rock, Japanese hip-hop, Japanese metal/hardcore, and J-jazz to the database too? Plenty of musicians from those genres have composed music for video games.

Even Wikipedia makes a clear distinction between the two separate genres. See Video game music (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_music) and Music in Japanese animation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_in_Japanese_animation). The first sentence from both entries sums it up for me: "Video game music is any of the musical pieces or soundtracks found in video games" and "Music in Japanese animation is often closely tied to the Japanese pop music industry, but is also a significant industry, and genre in its own right."

Perhaps the idea of being associated with Anime disgusts them. Kinda like how I feel about the addition of western animation.

Sorta but I wouldn't say it "disgusts" me. However I do take offense to the idea that just because I like to play video games and listen to video game music that I automatically must be a fan of watching anime and listening to anime music. It's a stereotype that isn't always true and I feel that VGMdb is supporting the notion with the recent conversion from its VGM-only policy to the new "music of visual arts and games." I realize we had some animation music before but it was limited to game-related only, which I was fine with (Advent Children for example).

I guess I feel like I was baited and switched. Came here for a site dedicated to game music and now I have to deal with the opening of the anime floodgates. Personally I've loved video games since I was like four years old but I can't stand anime and the majority of the anime fanbase. I'm not saying that to offend anybody, it's just the way it is.

But yeah anyway. I like Justin's idea of a separate database for all the animation stuff to be ran by these so-called anime experts. Keep the sites separate but make it an option (in our account settings, so you must be logged in) to be able to link the two databases together. So if you're on VGMdb and you have the linking option enabled, you'd see all the animation stuff as well. If you're browsing AMdb (hypothetical name) and you have the option enabled, the game music would be visible. I realize that this is easy to just type up but would probably be a nightmare to actually code, especially with the artist profiles and such. Or better yet just don't link the two sites at all. ;)

[LiquidAcid]

However I do take offense to the idea that just because I like to play video games and listen to video game music that I automatically must be a fan of watching anime and listening to anime music
Then, can I also be offended by the vast amount of doujin music, touhou, tales of, chiptune, etc. - everything I don't like musically but is still classified as VGM? Can I?

Seriously, I don't get your point here guys. We have the filters, if you don't want to see animation music then just switch it off. I don't see how the DB quality should be degraded by opening it for animation. Everything is still done through the moderation queue, so it's not like a bunch of self-proclaimed experts from 4chan are going to trash the DB with nonsense...

[Another Soundscape]

Then, can I also be offended by the vast amount of doujin music, touhou, tales of, chiptune, etc. - everything I don't like musically but is still classified as VGM? Can I?

Just gonna jump in and say that taste is irrelevant here. The doujin music, touhou, tales of and chiptunes are pretty much always VGM or VGM-related. You can't use "I don't like musically" as an argument, adding anime to VGMdb is a major step because it's not at all VGM. It may share some artists in common but it's a different kind of music and that's why people react.

Personally I like the thought of having VGMdb solely focused on VGM since I believe that'll make it more accurate and a really credible source for VGM. We don't have the anime community to support the addition of anime just yet (but I think we will) and personally I'd like to see an implementation that doesn't clash with what VGMdb is. I'll leave that to brighter minds though, some good ideas are here already.

[LiquidAcid]

It may share some artists in common but it's a different kind of music and that's why people react.
Wait, how is it _different_?

I claim that there is no more difference than the 'amount of difference' we already have in the VGM area. OK, we rarely have any looped tracks in animation soundtracks but the variety of styles is the same.

Personally I like the thought of having VGMdb solely focused on VGM since I believe that'll make it more accurate and a really credible source for VGM.
Like I said, I don't see where this problem should come problem. And I'm wondering why people see this problem.
From my POV opening the DB for animation is going to attract more people, and also people with the necessary experience to become staff.

You seem to fear that we're now going to face a DDoS-like flood of anime soundtrack additions, eventually leading to a complete halt of new material on the VGM side because the staff can't catch up with the speed.

I think this is ridiculous. The system here of adding and changing DB content is _very_ good, it works _very_ well and leads to the high quality of the DB. And this system isn't going to change, so how could we end up being _less_ accurate than before?

We don't have the anime community to support the addition of anime just yet (but I think we will) and personally I'd like to see an implementation that doesn't clash with what VGMdb is.
And we're not going to attract these people while restricting the DB like it was done in the past.
Also I fail to see this 'clashing'...

Personally I feel that (even though I might have sounded different before) every new album is an enrichment for the DB, no matter if it is doujin, some new touhou arrange, animation, j-pop, etc.

Some DB entries are more accurate, some less. Attracting more people means more accurate entries, since someone is eventually going to work on a less accurate entry (more people -> higher probability that someone picks the entry). I'm not saying that this is going to happen over night. But I'm confident that it will work out.

Currently we might have too few people that are 'experts' on the anime soundtrack sector, but it's enough to try it. And everything else will come with time. And if someday someone decides to open the DB for let's say j-drama soundtracks, then I'm not going to oppose it (provided that the rules what j-drama is are clear). ;)

[Another Soundscape]

Wait, how is it _different_?

I claim that there is no more difference than the 'amount of difference' we already have in the VGM area. OK, we rarely have any looped tracks in animation soundtracks but the variety of styles is the same.

Because it's not video game related. That's kind of my point.

In any case I'm not here to argue against the addition, just be sure to give users the option to choose (filters or otherwise) and it'll be all good.

[LiquidAcid]

Because it's not video game related. That's kind of my point.
OK I see, so it is the context.

just be sure to give users the option to choose (filters or otherwise) and it'll be all good.
full ack
That should be a given for all further additions to the DB.

[Gigablah]

I realize that this is easy to just type up but would probably be a nightmare to actually code, especially with the artist profiles and such.

This.

I've implemented filters, so all the animation albums will simply disappear with a few clicks. I've gone as far as separating the forums into different categories. And I'm supposed to code a separate site with a separate domain and separate staff? Even if I were to do that, it'd be hosted on the same server, taking up the same drive space, using the same database. There's no point.

So I've made it really, really easy to hide anime albums. (http://vgmdb.net/db/user.php?do=preferences&anime=false)

[Another Soundscape]

This.

I've implemented filters, so all the animation albums will simply disappear with a few clicks. I've gone as far as separating the forums into different categories. And I'm supposed to code a separate site with a separate domain and separate staff? Even if I were to do that, it'd be hosted on the same server, taking up the same drive space, using the same database. There's no point.

So I've made it really, really easy to hide anime albums. (http://vgmdb.net/db/user.php?do=preferences&anime=false)

I have filtered out anime albums! Yay!

[Blitz Lunar]

after clicking that link, the albums are still showing on artist profiles for me.

[Ira]

after clicking that link, the albums are still showing on artist profiles for me.

Discographies aren't filtered presently. If you want more pages filtered you should bring it up here (http://vgmdb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4441).

[Blitz Lunar]

doesn't matter to me since i won't be filtering them out. just thought i'd let you know.

[Mika]

Oh, this happened. I approve. I'm also not against any western animation soundtracks either, for the record.

[Medina]

I kind of don't understand the argument against adding different content other than a purist notion (no offense to anyone). I mean, no matter how much of anything else is added, this is still the #1 video game music database site. It still lives up to its name. But with more content added it only offers things for other people too. This is probably a silly analogy but I picture someone walking into a candy store (labeled as such, "CANDY STORE" across the top of the shop), seeing a section of toys for sale, and then complaining to the owner that there shouldn't be toys for sale because the name is CANDY STORE. Very possibly, some people in a candy store have kids / are shopping for a sweet treat for their kids and kids like toys too. Everyone? No, of course not. But plenty of people.

It's sort of what I see here, people see "VGMdb" so when they see anime being added they complain to the site owner that anime shouldn't be catalogued because they personally are coming here for VGM. But like the candy store analogy, many people who like VGM like anime music too. Insisting on a different site is caring about something that only matters in your head really, because all the information will still be here on the internet, and the same people will be updating and maintaining it, in the same fashion, with the same standard of quality.

Anyway that's just what I think, and I'm looking forward to shaping a collection of anime music here too. I think this is a great initiative.

[Secret Squirrel]

I do share some of the reservations about adding anime. The last thing I want is to damage what we've built here. I think we're just going to have to work hard to find the best solution.

The addition of anime really grows out of a desire for the discographies to play a more prominent role, and for that they need to be more complete. While the categories Game and Anime don't overlap that much musically, the artists do overlap, especially the performers and less prominent composers and arrangers. Anyone who has done a lot of linking has seen this. Also, like game music, anime music is not widely respected in the mainstream. More importantly, the need for quality accurate album and artist information is much greater for anime music than the need that VGMdb helped to fill for game music. The current state is that decrepit.

I'm in full agreement that we need to preserve our brands, and I hope the separate portals will accomplish that. This gives us the opportunity to actually tighten up VGMdb/game. The default filter should be +game, with nothing in the other categories, so that browsing and searching only shows game-related results. The -anime filter removes all anime, including albums classified as both game and anime, so it's not the right one to use. The discographies should remain unfiltered, so a user can stumble on Works albums by following an artist link, but won't see them prominently displayed on the VGmdb/game front page or by search/browse. Eventually, animation that is related to games can be discovered by following product and franchise links. I think this follows the original motivation for adding all these other categories in the first place.

The VGMdb/animation portal mirrors this behavior, except it's +anime.

Thinking a little further, I wonder if the filter system is a little too full-featured. If we have the 3 portals (VGM, anime, everything) and maybe this category switcher, then perhaps all we need is a "Turn off Doujins" switch. I think we need to hear more about how you all are using the filter.

[Hamu-Sumo]

I very welcome the addition of anime soundtracks as I'm one of these guys who enjoys both VGM (with Japan on the top of quality and quantity) and anime. The whole otaku (western defined) culture subcategories is very interweaved so it makes sense to cover the complete musical experience.

Concerning western animations I'm rather against to put them into the database but I also wouldn't cry to use filters.

[Another Soundscape]

I do share some of the reservations about adding anime. The last thing I want is to damage what we've built here. I think we're just going to have to work hard to find the best solution.

The addition of anime really grows out of a desire for the discographies to play a more prominent role, and for that they need to be more complete. While the categories Game and Anime don't overlap that much musically, the artists do overlap, especially the performers and less prominent composers and arrangers. Anyone who has done a lot of linking has seen this. Also, like game music, anime music is not widely respected in the mainstream. More importantly, the need for quality accurate album and artist information is much greater for anime music than the need that VGMdb helped to fill for game music. The current state is that decrepit.

I'm in full agreement that we need to preserve our brands, and I hope the separate portals will accomplish that. This gives us the opportunity to actually tighten up VGMdb/game. The default filter should be +game, with nothing in the other categories, so that browsing and searching only shows game-related results. The -anime filter removes all anime, including albums classified as both game and anime, so it's not the right one to use. The discographies should remain unfiltered, so a user can stumble on Works albums by following an artist link, but won't see them prominently displayed on the VGmdb/game front page or by search/browse. Eventually, animation that is related to games can be discovered by following product and franchise links. I think this follows the original motivation for adding all these other categories in the first place.

The VGMdb/animation portal mirrors this behavior, except it's +anime.

Thinking a little further, I wonder if the filter system is a little too full-featured. If we have the 3 portals (VGM, anime, everything) and maybe this category switcher, then perhaps all we need is a "Turn off Doujins" switch. I think we need to hear more about how you all are using the filter.

You are like the voice of reason. :) Though I must say I disagree with just having "Turn off Doujins", customizable filters are key for fast database usage for researchers and fans alike. People who aren't die-hard collectors might very well want to turn off promo/enclosure and I, for example, have turned off both anime, radio/drama and all bootlegs.

In my opinion, the more we expand on the filtering, the easier it will be for people to use the database. We just need to make it very clear what the filter does, I've already seen example when the_miker couldn't find a DG-10 album because it was classified as anime (had a remix of Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind). Overall though, I'm very pro-filters because it makes the database easier to man-handle :)

[Myrkul]

I hope this kind of entries (http://vgmdb.net/album/23307) are safe.
France do have plenty of Animation stuff & music (generally, musics were remade for the French population/kids)

I do think (and proud) that France have a good culture for anime & mangas.
I won't make an article about that.. but like we call it, "Japanimation" is famous here and it all started in the end of the 70's. (one of the most famous series was UFO Robot Grendizer -Goldorak here-)

France also collaborated with Japan for some very good animation, like "The Mysterious Cities of Gold", or "Ulysses 31".

Even if we maybe screwed up a bit in the beginning (especially on the dubbing), we always had a good interest about the anime here.

I am really curious to know more about the Animation Era/Culture on the others European countries, and if you guys had a lot of music stuff like us.

[Phonograph]

"especially on the dubbing"

like nicky larson wanting to go to "vegetarian restaurant" because he likes veggies (love hotel in jap) ahaha
or people getting drunk after only drinking "lemonade" (maison ikkoku -juliette je t'aime) lol

"hokuto de cuisine" is cult =)

[AcidBeast]

I was always envious of the european countries like France, Italy and even Spain. In the 90s, the french even had a TV channel that reported about the new anime and manga trends.
Since I used to visit Italy practically every year, I also grew to love the italian anime/manga market with all their TV releases, magazines, merchandise and original theme songs.
In Germany, Manga & Anime was associated with hentai only for a long time. Even though german television broadcasted a lot of meisaku anime and other stuff, but no one knew that it was actually anime and considered it to be western cartoons. Manga-wise, there were only a few quality releases like Venus Wars and Battle Angel Alita.
Fortunately, this changed when Sailor Moon was picked up and by another channel and re-aired for the second time.

[Lucy]

well, what's about the international cartoon/animation soundtrack debate now? After reading the whole topic again I don't see a reason why it shouldn't be added to the DB. My brother has currently a run on Disney Soundtracks and checks from time to time on english Disney Soundtracks, like Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast and so on..

And guess what, there's no database for that many different versions of the Soundtrack. And I would support the idea as long as it doesn't go to Real Life-Movie/Series Entries.

[Dag]

Don't take it as an official word, but given the negative response in the topic, and since the portal idea seems to be on hold, I'd wait for now.
Game and anime albums may share artists, products, themes, etc. Western animation is a bit more detached from that, so it may be harder to accept by vgmdb's public.

We are just starting with anime, there is plenty of time to expand.

[Armitage]

Hi,

first of all i love this page i collect anime/game/soundtrack music since 11 yeahrs and this here helps endless because of my crazy perfection. Files often look like that on my pc.
Gōsuto In Za Sheru - Kōkaku Kidōtai - Kōkaku Kidōtai Sutando Arōn Konpurekkusu - Opening 1 - Kanno Yōko - Ol'ga Vital'evna Yakovleva - Shanti Snyder - Benedict Del Maestro - Inner Universe.mp3

And i would have 3 Ideas.

Some of the albums here have only japanese signs for the tracklist.
But most people dont understand them so i did think could you integrate something like google translate in the page.
It should be marked that it is not a perfect translation because its google and you should stay on the page. Opening another window would be annoying.

There are a few databases around and there is wiki. Alot of the things you have here you cant find in wiki. So is it possible to take the database export it and integrate it in wiki.

And my album artwork on my iphone and the windows media player isnt working for many of my albums. Isnt it possible to integrate this database in the databases of the sources mircrosoft and apple are using.
That is wish thinking hehe but it cant be impossible.

[Phonograph]

...
Gōsuto In Za Sheru - Kōkaku Kidōtai - Kōkaku Kidōtai Sutando Arōn Konpurekkusu
...

naming that way remembers me the horrible way zhane-masaka (intended ;p) names his folders
to me, it's a bad way to name folders, a very bad and sort of disrespectful

"japanese signs" -> kanji (or hiragana/katakana for non-ideograms) =)

honestly, I'd prefer you to ask people to make a translation than using google translate or any other bad translation tools
why? because those tools can give the worst or the most laughable translations you could imagine (even raz can do better ;p)
to be avoided...

and translations on wiki can be inaccurate (almost like they use google translate and tweak to make it sensical)