Artist Profile Updates

[Gigablah]

Artist discographies can now be separated into two parts, original discography and featured work. Featured work refers to derivative albums (particularly doujins) that include arranged or remixed tracks without the involvement of the original composer. Moreover, ratings for featured work are not tallied into an artist's weighted album rating. Staff can designate an artist credit as "featured" in the artist assignment interface using the checkbox next to the role selection dropdown.

Refback links next to the visitor counter are now active on both album and artist pages, so you can click on them if available to display a list of incoming URLs.

[Gigablah]

Note to self: Deleting a group-type artist should also remove associated member entries.

[seanne]

Great addition Blah. But what do you think we should do with the likes of Best of the Best, Volume 1 (http://www.vgmdb.net/db/albums.php?id=4661) and Video Games Live: Greatest Hits – Volume One (http://www.vgmdb.net/db/albums.php?id=5395) though? Do we draw the line at something which has been officially sanctioned by the copyright holder? or at something which has been produced by the copyright holder? or at an album in which the original artist had a direct involvement, in some capacity? (this one seems most logical to me)

[Gigablah]

That's a question I hope everyone can chime in on. At its simplest it's a way to separate fanmade material from "official" works; if we get into direct artist involvement, compilation and omnibus albums will fall under the definition of featured work, too. Still, what's important is how the majority want the information to be presented (and I'm not ruling out separating the listings even further).

[Secret Squirrel]

I like the use of this feature to remove the doujins (both East and West) from the standard artist discographies. I'd rather not remove the other stuff - misc official arranges, compilations, since I think they are generally of interest to someone who is viewing a discography.

However, I'm not sure the term "Featured Works" clearly describes what is being listed, though I'm having trouble thinking about a replacement.

[Gigablah]

I've changed the term to "Featured in", which should be a bit more indicative.

[Muzza]

Nice amendment, Blah! I definitely agree that doujin works should be put in the "featured in" section. As for stuff like Best of the Best compilations etc, methinks they should go in the discography section, otherwise things could potentially become quite messy and meticulous.

[Powerlord]

Note to self: Deleting a group-type artist should also remove associated member entries.

Note to self: Another developer in the greater game music community also uses note to self style posts. Kill them.

er... nm.

[seanne]

Just a thought, doesn't "Featured On" make more sense?

I like the use of this feature to remove the doujins (both East and West) from the standard artist discographies. I'd rather not remove the other stuff - misc official arranges, compilations, since I think they are generally of interest to someone who is viewing a discography.

Sounds good to me.

[Kaleb.G]

Blah, thank you very much for implementing this. I believe I was the first person to suggest this, so I want to personally thank you for doing this. I'm going to check it out now.

[Kaleb.G]

I'm still weary about not using the "featured" field on albums that the composer had no new/direct involvement in, even if they are official soundtracks. Example: Mario RPG (http://www.vgmdb.net/db/albums.php?id=536). I'm sure you could infer from the composer/arranger credits that Yoko was the one in charge of music and that she merely took some of Koji and Nobuo's stuff to arrange. However, looking on the artist page for Koji or Nobuo, all you see is a composer credit for Mario RPG. It wasn't as if they composed anything specifically for it. Rather their compositions were featured in it. I rest my case.

I think a fine solution for the people who want to segregate doujins and official albums in the artist profile is simply to filter out "featured" albums of the "doujin" type, rather than the sum of all "featured" albums.

[Gigablah]

That reminds me, I need to update the javascript so that the discography filter works for the featured listing.

[Secret Squirrel]

I've been thinking about the artist page fields in preparation of opening up for public editing.

It would be nice to have a notes field, in parallel to the one on the Album pages. I know we put a lot of general info in the discussion, but there are undoubtedly some things that we'd like to condense out of that and display on the artist pages.

Also, we haven't talked much about the biography field. I'd like to open this up as well, but since the discographies are the main focus of the artist pages, I'm thinking that we should limit the bios to something short, probably a paragraph tops summarizing the artist. It'd probably be ideal if these were all original too, instead of lifted from some other site.

[Revoc]

Sorry for bump this old thread, but since a long time I noticed that there is no consensus on some albums in the database.

I'd like to say that I disagree with the composers featured on several original soundtracks with reprises of games previously released, like Rockman 9 (http://vgmdb.net/album/9898), Seiken Densetsu 4 (http://vgmdb.net/album/3950), Super Mario RPG (http://vgmdb.net/album/536), Nintendo Allstar! Dairantou Smash Bros. (http://vgmdb.net/album/1541), Akumajo Dracula Judgment Original Soundtrack (http://vgmdb.net/album/10987) and some official arranged albums, like Final Fantasy Ukulele Solo Collections (http://vgmdb.net/album/17078) and Journeys on a Piano (http://vgmdb.net/album/5697).

In contrast, some composers are not featured on original soundtracks like Dissidia Final Fantasy (http://vgmdb.net/album/10936) (Nobuo Uematsu), Segagaga Soundtrack Collection Blue (http://vgmdb.net/album/4352) (Hiro and Masato Nakamura), Radiata Stories Original Soundtrack (http://vgmdb.net/album/2158) (Motoi Sakuraba) and several arranged albums.

The main reason is written below, since currently there is no way to filter the doujin albums on featured works:

I'd rather not remove the other stuff - misc official arranges, compilations, since I think they are generally of interest to someone who is viewing a discography.

Even if one day a filter will be implemented, I think the featured option should be used only in specific cases that I listed in the end of my comment.

Hiroki Kikuta and Yoko Shimomura didn't compose new music specifically for Dawn of Mana. Even is a game original soundtrack, the tracks from Secret of Mana, Seiken Densetsu 3 and Legend of Mana are arranged, like so many other tracks of arranged albums without the involvement of composers in database, but doesn't have composers assigned as featured. For instance, Dragon Quest Best Dance Mix (http://vgmdb.net/album/11675) – obviously Koichi Sugiyama didn't compose new tracks specifically for this CD. In my opinion, use the featured option only in original soundtracks and not in arranged albums is inconsistent.

Another example: Dairantou Smash Brothers DX Orchestra Concert (http://vgmdb.net/album/2975), which has arranged tracks of Super Smash Bros. Melee. The composers of old Nintendo games was assigned as featured. But I removed this featured because, in practice, are arrangements of old Nintendo tracks like any other Nintendo arranged album.

When is clear that the composer participated of the album as an arranger, we don't assign as featured. This isn’t accurate in my opinion because if we use rigorously the same criterion that we use on original soundtracks that I mentioned before, the same album should appear twice in the discography of some artists, which I really don't like, with the composer credit on the list of featured works and arranger credit in regular discography. For example, in the Gyakuten Saiban Orchestra Album (http://vgmdb.net/album/3602) there are four tracks that Noriyuki Iwadare originally composed for Gyakuten Saiban 3 (http://vgmdb.net/album/2601) – three tracks was arranged by Iwadare himself and one by Kaori Komuro.

Moreover, very often the composer was involved on arranged album and isn't explicitly credited. In the album Echoes of War (http://vgmdb.net/album/10858), composers Matt Uelmen, Tracy W. Bush, Derek Duke, Glenn Stafford are assigned as featured composers, but in this interview (http://www.originalsoundversion.com/?p=881) Hiroaki Yura said: " We have worked with Derek Duke and Glen Stafford from the music department. Our arrangers have been to Blizzard HQ to discuss and receive a tour of the games”. About Super Mario RPG, Koji Kondo appears in Special Thanks list and Nobuo Uematsu in Extra Special Thanks list of game credits (http://www.mobygames.com/game/snes/super-mario-rpg-legend-of-the-seven-stars/credits). How will we know if they really had no involvement in the soundtrack?

Finally, I think it's almost impossible for us to know exactly which composers participated directly in concert collections like PLAY!, VGL or Game Music Concert series and unnecessary try to find out for this purpose.

I would like to restrict the featured option only for:

1 - Doujin albums without the involvement of original composers (in other words, without the license for the IP rights of the compositions)
2 - Classical composers
3 - Licensed music. This include arranged tracks of songs originally composed for another purpose (movies, original work etc.), like covers of mainstream music in Bemani albums or Disney songs in Kingdom Hearts.

[Secret Squirrel]

This is the way I'd prefer to use the Featured artist too.

I think 3 would also include anime songs used on Super Robot Wars soundtracks. We might also want to extend it to apply to game music that is way outside of its franchise, like if the Mario theme was borrowed for use in a Final Fantasy soundtrack.

[Revoc]

About anime soundtracks, I’m in doubt because the anime albums will be covered in the database. I think these albums can still be interesting for who wants to see in regular discography, especially the anime soundtracks with tracks originally composed for games, like Blue Dragon the Animation (http://vgmdb.net/album/6258) (Nobuo Uematsu) and Arc The Lad TV Animation (http://vgmdb.net/album/12165) (Masahiro Andoh).

If we use featured option when the music is from a different franchise, I think it may cause some inconsistencies. For example, in Super Mario RPG, Nobuo Uematsu should be assigned as featured, but not Koji Kondo, since the game is part of Super Mario franchise. And both appears in game credits.

[kyubihanyou]

Another example: Dairantou Smash Brothers DX Orchestra Concert (http://vgmdb.net/album/2975), which has arranged tracks of Super Smash Bros. Melee. The composers of old Nintendo games was assigned as featured. But I removed this featured because, in practice, are arrangements of old Nintendo tracks like any other Nintendo arranged album.

When is clear that the composer participated of the album as an arranger, we don't assign as featured. This isn’t accurate in my opinion because if we use rigorously the same criterion that we use on original soundtracks that I mentioned before, the same album should appear twice in the discography of some artists, which I really don't like, with the composer credit on the list of featured works and arranger credit in regular discography. For example, in the Gyakuten Saiban Orchestra Album (http://vgmdb.net/album/3602) there are four tracks that Noriyuki Iwadare originally composed for Gyakuten Saiban 3 (http://vgmdb.net/album/2601) – three tracks was arranged by Iwadare himself and one by Kaori Komuro.

I would like to restrict the featured option only for:

1 - Doujin albums without the involvement of original composers (in other words, without the license for the IP rights of the compositions)
2 - Classical composers
3 - Licensed music. This include arranged tracks of songs originally composed for another purpose (movies, original work etc.), like covers of mainstream music in Bemani albums or Disney songs in Kingdom Hearts.

I would have to disagree greatly with your treatment of DX Orchestra Concert (and, by extension, other compilation albums). Only Shogo Sakai and Hirokazu Ando should be non-featured composers as they composed [at least] the opening and menu 1 themes, respectively (aka new compositions). Everything else was arranged by either Shogo Sakai, Hirokazu Ando, or Tadashi Ikegami [Takuto Kitsuta's arrangement, Mute City, not being on there, nor an SE collection courtesey of Tadashi Ikegami].
Here's the credits for proof of their duties:
http://www.themushroomkingdom.net/ssbm_credits-full.shtml

Everyone else should be featured because their works is, in fact, being showcased through the efforts of the HAL Laboratory music staff. They, themselves, had no part in composing or arranging the music, so they should not be on the same level as Shogo Sakai and Hirokazu Ando.

I think this is an example of number 3, as the many Nintendo composers are letting their work be arranged by HAL, just as Disney let its music be arranged by Squaresoft. This, of course, applies to the other Smash Bros. titles as well.

I also don't think being both active and featured on the same album is a problem; I'm sure it's perfectly possible for an arranger to arrange someone else's compositions (active arranger; light blue) but not arrange their own compositions, instead handled by someone else (featured composer; dark blue) and also not have any new compositions of their own on the album (no other reason for the featured composer to upgrade to active). I believe I've heard of something like that, but I'll have to tell you after I remind myself of what that was.

Got it.

Chiptuned Rockman. On there, Akari Kaida arranges Naoshi's composition (Opening Stage) but not her own (Groundman Stage), which was handled by Hiroki Isogai. Kaida also doesn't have any new compositons of her own on that album. This makes Kaida both a featured composer (through Hiroki) and an active arranger (through herself in arranging Naoshi). Naoshi, then, would only be featured on that album due to not arranging anything himself for the album. Lastly, all of the tracks on Chiptuned Rockman are from old games and are not at all new compositions; it is an arrangement-only album; there is nothing new composed, so all the composers in the field would then be featured. Doujins work exactly the same way, and all the tracks in Smash Bros that aren't original compositions would follow that logic as well.

Hypothetical example:
Say all the music arranged exclusively for Melee and Brawl were each released in CD Sets (Why don't they do it already!?) The same thing happens: no new music, just arrangers. The composers would then all be featured as well unless it was, in fact, the original composer would made the arrangement (ex. Sector 1 by Minako Hamano, Overworld Theme by Koji Kondo, Donkey Kong by Hirokazu Tanaka et al., etc.)

Sorry Revoc, but I think the wrong idea was put in your head today. It was Shogo Sakai after all who did everything involved with Mach Rider (to name an example) in this game, not Akito Akatsuka; they had absolutely no active role in the production. They're just... featured here. :)

[Dag]

Personally I'd always separate when composers are somehow involved in an album or it directly represents a product, and when their music is just reused/arranged/featured for other purposes (doujin or official). In the Smash Bros example now it may seem like all the composers worked on the albums, or that their compositions are meant for the game, that's a bit disinformative.

Then just separate the discographies in several lists, like "featured on - reused music" and "featured on - doujins" (since there are so many of them they deserve their own list) or such.

[Ira]

I think it has to be handled on a case-by-case basis, but usually (I feel) that if an artist appears on an album but has no actual involvement (that is, their tracks were only reused or arranged) they should be linked as featured. If they are involved with the album in any way they should not be linked as featured for any credit (because this will result in the album being listed under 'featured on'.)

Then just separate the discographies in several lists, like "featured on - reused music" and "featured on - doujins" (since there are so many of them they deserve their own list) or such.

You can already tell what kind of release it is by the color, not hard to skim through and see.

[Cedille]

I agree we can handle this on a case by case basis, but I'm personally not a big fan of using 'Involvement' as the standard, because this kind of information is hard for us to get, and even if available, how to treat it is still very subjective. More importantly, I'm not a big fan of seeing one official release on the artist's main discography and the other official release on the featured on discography with Doujin albums, when both albums seemingly has no new composition from the composer anyway.

On Nobuo Uematsu discography, it's safe to say Uematsu was involved in FFIII DS (http://vgmdb.net/album/608) because he gave the arrangers advises according to the interview, but not sure he has any involvement in Dissidia (http://vgmdb.net/album/10936), but I don't like to push Dissidia into the crowd of orange albums while the status of both albums for casual Nobuo Uematsu fans are not so different. I don't think FFIIIDS is a perfect example because one can argue Uematsu must have had the involvement in the arranging and recording session of the opening FMV track or the BLM track, but that's not my point.

It's obvious the classic composers aren't involved in any VGM releases, but only a fine line exists between being dead and being retired. I can swear Yasunori Shiono isn't involved in Estpolis Original Soundtrack (http://vgmdb.net/album/17315) because Shiono had already retired and he and his wife even didn't know about the announcement of the remake until they were told by his fan. I think we can prepare another rationale on why classic composers have to be set to 'featured' (e.g. from the other genre) other than because they passed away long ago (although I know some people have problem with subsequent additions to the dead composer's discography having after the death).

[Datschge]

As discussed elsewhere before I think the whole issue is best solved once there is per track credits as well as being able to set tracks as being original or arranged (linking to the original). Then the whole composing, arranging, featuring credits of albums can be generated based on that.

[kyubihanyou]

As discussed elsewhere before I think the whole issue is best solved once there is per track credits as well as being able to set tracks as being original or arranged (linking to the original). Then the whole composing, arranging, featuring credits of albums can be generated based on that.

Yep. And Melee, at least what was given through/associated with Smashing Live does follow a specific track-by-track basis, and is simple to figure out/effectively label with the exception of Original Medley (which is either Shogo or Hirokazu for all of them, so it's no big deal, as it can be cracked).

[Revoc]

I would have to disagree greatly with your treatment of DX Orchestra Concert (and, by extension, other compilation albums). Only Shogo Sakai and Hirokazu Ando should be non-featured composers as they composed [at least] the opening and menu 1 themes, respectively. Everything else was arranged by either Shogo Sakai, Hirokazu Ando, or Tadashi Ikegami [Takuto Kitsuta's arrangement, Mute City, not being on there, nor a SE collection courtesey of Tadashi Ikegami].
Here's the credits for proof of their duties:
http://www.themushroomkingdom.net/ssbm_credits-full.shtml

Everyone else should be featured because their works is, in fact, being showcased through the efforts of the HAL Laboratory music staff. They, themselves, had no part in composing or arranging the music, so they should not be on the same level as Shogo Sakai and Hirokazu Ando.

I think this is an example of number 3, as the many Nintendo composers are letting their work be arranged by HAL, just as Disney let its music be arranged by Squaresoft. This, of course, applies to the other Smash Bros. titles as well.

I appreciate your extensive research about Super Smash Bros. Melee and agree that all composers didn't participate with new compositions, except Shogo Sakai and Hirokazu Ando. However, like Secret Squirrel said, it is interesting to keep these albums in regular discography.

If we follow this criterion, all composers in arranged albums should be marked as "featured", which I don't think is good. What is the difference between Dairantou Smash Brothers DX Orchestra Concert and Game Music Concert series? Both albums contains Nintendo orchestrated tracks in the same way. For example, in the first The Black Mages (http://vgmdb.net/album/10) album, Nobuo Uematsu should be marked as featured because there is no new music from him on this, but I suppose that fans want to see it in regular discography.

In the case of the Disney / Squaresoft is different because the songs were originally composed for movies. It's the same as the Ennio Morricone in MGS4, since "Here's to You" is a song originally composed for "Sacco and Vanzetti" movie.

For me, the ideal basically would be something like this for the third topic. I'm still in doubt with the songs of anime in games and vice-versa, but I find it interesting to keep especially in cases where the same franchise as the Dag said (which is not the case of Super Robot Taisen):

Movie composition -> game soundtrack (featured discography)
Original work -> game soundtrack (featured discography)
Anime composition -> game soundtrack (regular discography)
Game composition -> anime soundtrack (regular discography)
Reprise -> game original soundtrack (regular discography)
Game composition -> official game arranged soundtrack with or whithout the involvement of the composer (regular discography)

Moreover, I agree that every album should be considered on a case by case basis, especially for albums like this (http://vgmdb.net/album/16065).

Then just separate the discographies in several lists, like "featured on - reused music" and "featured on - doujins" (since there are so many of them they deserve their own list) or such.

You can already tell what kind of release it is by the color, not hard to skim through and see.

I find this idea interesting, as the Cedille had commented before (http://vgmdb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3792). But the category filter would be interesting in artists discographies too.

I agree we can handle this on a case by case basis, but I'm personally not a big fan of using 'Involvement' as the standard, because this kind of information is hard for us to get, and even if available, how to treat it is still very subjective. More importantly, I'm not a big fan of seeing one official release on the artist's main discography and the other official release on the featured on discography with Doujin albums, when both albums seemingly has no new composition from the composer anyway.

You said exactly what I think about this issue.

It's obvious the classic composers aren't involved in any VGM releases, but only a fine line exists between being dead and being retired. I can swear Yasunori Shiono isn't involved in Estpolis Original Soundtrack (http://vgmdb.net/album/17315) because Shiono had already retired and he and his wife even didn't know about the announcement of the remake until they were told by his fan. I think we can prepare another rationale on why classic composers have to be set to 'featured' (e.g. from the other genre) other than because they passed away long ago (although I know some people have problem with subsequent additions to the dead composer's discography having after the death).

Very interesting. In the case of classical composers, perhaps the featured option could be allowed because most of compositions are in the public domain. But I agree that it is discussable. For example, why in The Millennium of Beethoven (http://vgmdb.net/album/6888), Beethoven isn't listed as featured like the other albums? Finally, a interesting case is this Kiniro no Corda album (http://vgmdb.net/album/17055) because contains licensed music from a collection of classical music.

As discussed elsewhere before I think the whole issue is best solved once there is per track credits as well as being able to set tracks as being original or arranged (linking to the original). Then the whole composing, arranging, featuring credits of albums can be generated based on that.

It sure would be interesting and much more accurate.

[kyubihanyou]

I appreciate your extensive research about Super Smash Bros. Melee and agree that all composers didn't participate with new compositions, except Shogo Sakai and Hirokazu Ando. However, like Secret Squirrel said, it is interesting to keep these albums in regular discography.

Aren't those album titles in yellow? Besides, DX Orchestra is not an OST for Smash Bros. DX. It is a live orchestra performance, therefore it is an arrange album and not a primary soundtrack, meaning it is secondary compared to OSTs. OSTs are where true composers credits really go, and it's also where anyone with no base knowledge for VGM can learn about composers - by learning from the ground up. After seeing the OST, they then see how it extends into other arrange/tribute albums/doujins. This is why I think each composer involved in a VG should have a little VG resume (ala Wikipedia) on their page (in the lower-left corner) in order to swiftly cover their roles in each game (composer, arranger, performer, SE, etc) for those already covered (to gently introduce starting learners) as well as games not at all given OSTs (ala Takuto Kitsuta in Melee) in order to truly complete the database.

If we follow this criterion, all composers in arranged albums should be marked as "featured", which I don't think is good. What is the difference between Dairantou Smash Brothers DX Orchestra Concert and Game Music Concert series? Both albums contains Nintendo orchestrated tracks in the same way. For example, in the first The Black Mages (http://vgmdb.net/album/10) album, Nobuo Uematsu should be marked as featured because there is no new music from him on this, but I suppose that fans want to see it in regular discography.

Composers that shouldn't be featured on an arrange album are those who arrange their own tracks (ex. Manami Matsumae on Chiptuned Rockman (http://vgmdb.net/album/15342) [single track] and Motoi Sakuraba on this [whole album]: http://vgmdb.net/album/7184), as the artist being featured would no longer be the case due to being active through arrangement.

Otherwise, for arrange albums that have a special/bonus track, those who have original game BGM (ex. Super Mario Land: http://vgmdb.net/album/1478) [no new compositions] or a completely new/not from the game composition for said bonus track (ex. Toshihiko Horiyama in this: http://vgmdb.net/album/15029, where he, being a composer/arranger for Powered Up allows him to ascend past Setsuo, Makoto, Yuki, and Yuko, who did nothing for either of the two games) upgrade from being featured to being a normal composer.

The dark blue (Works) text exists solely to make these distinctions. Please check the bottom half of my previous rant post (aka my ace in the hole) for more.

Also, why does Final Fantasy get special treatment? The Black Mages is not an OST, nor is it particularly "canon" in terms of arrange soundtracks. The Black Mages are really just a tribute/officialized doujin band and nothing more.
MegaDriver would have essentially been SEGA's answer to that with just a few legal manuevers.

Lastly, at the end of the day, the search bar - the one, true absolute - finds EVERYTHING.

In the case of the Disney / Squaresoft is different because the songs were originally composed for movies. It's the same as the Ennio Morricone in MGS4, since "Here's to You" is a song originally composed for "Sacco and Vanzetti" movie.

So how is outsourcing from a movie different from outsourcing from a game? It's all still outsourcing, with the works of others being showcased/featured by a group other than the original.

For me, the ideal basically would be something like this for the third topic. I'm still in doubt with the songs of anime in games and vice-versa, but I find it interesting to keep especially in cases where the same franchise as the Dag said (which is not the case of Super Robot Taisen):

Movie composition -> game soundtrack (featured discography) -->Yes, unless movie and game are in the same set (ex. John Williams would be featured if Rogue Squadron I got an official soundtrack release, as his tracks had to be remade for the N64, but would be considered regular if Rogue Squadrons II or III got an official release, as his tracks are preserved in their original forms within those games; simply looped.)
Original work -> game soundtrack (featured discography) ---> Yes
Anime composition -> game soundtrack (regular discography) ---> Only if game and anime have a shared composer ala Kazunori Maruyama for Bomberman Jetters (the anime) and Bomberman Jetters Game Collection for the GBA (ported straight from his works).
Game composition -> anime soundtrack (regular discography)---> No; game tracks are often arranged from their original form (ex. The Pokemon anime uses no original BGM; VG and anime composers are also not at all the same (Junichi Masuda does not equal Shinji Miyazaki)
Reprise -> game original soundtrack (regular discography) --->Yes, if left completely alone; No, if edited by a later composer (I think the original composer would be left off that album at this point); Yes, if edited by a later arranger (as original theme is preserved)
Game composition -> official game arranged soundtrack with or without the involvement of the composer (regular discography) -->With, yes; without, no

[Revoc]

I think the discussion is a bit cyclical because we disagree on many key elements. Again, I think Cedille summarize all I think about this issue.

I agree we can handle this on a case by case basis, but I'm personally not a big fan of using 'Involvement' as the standard, because this kind of information is hard for us to get, and even if available, how to treat it is still very subjective. More importantly, I'm not a big fan of seeing one official release on the artist's main discography and the other official release on the featured on discography with Doujin albums, when both albums seemingly has no new composition from the composer anyway.

Aren't those album titles in yellow? Besides, DX Orchestra is not an OST for Smash Bros. DX. It is a live orchestra performance, therefore it is an arrange album and not a primary soundtrack, meaning it is secondary compared to OSTs.

This album is yellow just because is a promo CD. I understand that you consider OSTs most important, but for me the arranged albums are just important as OSTs.

Also, why does Final Fantasy get special treatment? The Black Mages is not an OST, nor is it particularly "canon" in terms of arrange soundtracks. The Black Mages are really just a tribute/officialized doujin band and nothing more.
MegaDriver would have essentially been SEGA's answer to that with just a few legal manuevers.

I didn't understand your point, because there is a obvious distinction between The Black Mages and MegaDriver or any other doujin band. And yes, the first Black Mages album is very important. Because of that, this album was chosen to be the tenth entry of the database.

So how is outsourcing from a movie different from outsourcing from a game? It's all still outsourcing, with the works of others being showcased/featured by a group other than the original.

I know, but the difference is that movie soundtracks are not covered here.

[Dag]

However, like Secret Squirrel said, it is interesting to keep these albums in regular discography.

I think we should separate this in two issues
1 - when to add an artist as featured
To me: always if the album reuses music not meant for it, even in arranges, it's an indication the composer didn't directly compose (ex. kyubi's Chiptuned Rockman)

2 - how it is displayed in the artist page.
I think most people don't use "featured" because it sends albums into the Orange Mass. So, why not alter the artist page? Ex.- in "featured on" only featured doujins (or doujin + deceased composers, etc), in "discography" all other albums but write "composer -> featured composer" or such. To me, how it is displayed is less important (=can be altered anytime) than the info "the album reuses music meant for other game/album, the composer didn't do anything here".

I guess the key disagreement is what "featured" means for each one...

As discussed elsewhere before I think the whole issue is best solved once there is per track credits as well as being able to set tracks as being original or arranged (linking to the original). Then the whole composing, arranging, featuring credits of albums can be generated based on that.
I think the problem would still remain - some wouldn't like to link to the originals as that'd be essentially "featured" (ex. Uematsu here (http://vgmdb.net/album/10)). Besides track-linking sounds like ginormous amount of work with added problems, like which'd be the originals in reissued osts? (ex.- here (http://vgmdb.net/album/7159) and here (http://vgmdb.net/album/1316))

[Cedille]

So, why not alter the artist page? Ex.- in "featured on" only featured doujins (or doujin + deceased composers, etc), in "discography" all other albums but write "composer -> featured composer" or such. To me, how it is displayed is less important (=can be altered anytime) than the info "the album reuses music meant for other game/album, the composer didn't do anything here".Yeah, I've also thought it would be a good idea to change 'Composer' into something that implies a less direct involvement, such as 'Arranged' or 'Reprise', but I'm not sure if it could be altered so easily since I think each update and change of VGMdb would require a great amount of workload and consideration. For this reason, I still think what's the best under the current system is to separate Doujin from Official instead of mixing them up until a future change, but I see why some people prefer otherwise.

[Ira]

For this reason, I still think what's the best under the current system is to separate Doujin from Official instead of mixing them up until a future change, but I see why some people prefer otherwise.

Seperating doujin and commercial albums is doable... but it tells you nothing about the artists involvement with a given album because there are many who are involved with both.

[Cedille]

Seperating doujin and commercial albums is doable... but it tells you nothing about the artists involvement with a given album because there are many who are involved with both.
Well, I believe what I and other people (like Muzza and Secret Squirrel above) tried to mean by 'Doujin' was those albums where the artist isn't involved. I think we're for the most part seperating them as Dag says, but there are some exceptions as Revoc says. Sorry if I'm missing our point of this thread...

[Ira]

Well, I believe what I and other people (like Muzza and Secret Squirrel above) tried to mean by 'Doujin' was those albums where the artist isn't involved. I think we're for the most part seperating them as Dag says, but there are some exceptions as Revoc says. Sorry if I'm missing our point of this thread...

By doujin I would assume we're talking about the publisher type, but now I'm just confused.

[Kaleb.G]

I like having something that lets me know if a composer has created new material for an album or not. It's often simple math. If all tracks that a composer has on an album are arranged by one or more other people, they didn't create new material. There are exceptions, but it's rare (Daisuke Ishiwatari, for example). And for those exceptions, that's where the ear comes in. However, there's currently no way to mark these cases other than using the featured checkbox.

Now, as for whether the original composer was involved with the making of the album or not, that's irrelevant as far as what I'm looking for in the first paragraph.

If you want to rework what the featured checkbox means, be my guest. However, I would still like some way of separating albums that only feature arrangements of a composer's work out from the ones that actually feature new compositions. Even if it's something that's more supplemental information than anything official, it's still useful.

EDIT: Changed some things.

[Revoc]

As Dag said, I think the question is how the album appear in the discography of the composers. Therefore, I agree that it would be more interesting that something (perhaps another checkbox?) indicate when the album is a new material of the composer.

A possibility is create a new color coding for the roles "Composer", "Arranger", "Performer" and "Lyricist" in the profiles to indicate whether it is a new material or not.

For example, Nobuo Uematsu:

1988 12.21 All Sounds of Final Fantasy I • II (http://vgmdb.net/album/41) H25X-20015
Composer

1989 07.25 Symphonic Suite Final Fantasy (http://vgmdb.net/album/394) H28X-10007
Composer

1992 11.28 Game Music Concert 2 ~ The Best Selection (http://vgmdb.net/album/878) WPCL-709
Composer, Arranger

1996 03.25 Super Mario RPG Original Sound Version (http://vgmdb.net/album/536) PSCN-5047~8
Composer

Green = new material
Blue = old material (arranged by composer himself, by someone etc.)

The problem is that there are many albums with original soundtracks and arranged and also this might not be very pleasant to see. :(

[Datschge]

I think the problem would still remain - some wouldn't like to link to the originals as that'd be essentially "featured" (ex. Uematsu here (http://vgmdb.net/album/10)).
I guess I don't understand this particular issue at all. Uematsu composed the original tracks which were arranged in this example, and that's it. Why this dancing with "featured" and what do people want to have here that isn't there?

Besides track-linking sounds like ginormous amount of work with added problems, like which'd be the originals in reissued osts? (ex.- here (http://vgmdb.net/album/7159) and here (http://vgmdb.net/album/1316))
Reissues are originals as well. The original tracks in the case of VGM come from games, so different recordings/masterings/lengths of that doesn't make one version original and the other fake or something. Think of the originals as products, they can appear on multiple media without ceasing to be originals. If there are multiple versions of originals collectors tend to prefer the oldest appearance, but this doesn't mean the rest is invalid.

[Kaleb.G]

The problem is that there are many albums with original soundtracks and arranged
I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Visually speaking, I have no problem with a few more colors. We could even do something different than foreground color, such as a darker background, if the person coding is up to it.

[Revoc]

I'm sorry, I didn't make myself very clear. For example, The Black Mages II The Skies Above. This album has 11 tracks: ten are arranged and one is an original composition, "Blue Blast - Winning the Rainbow". In this album, I prefer that Nobuo Uematsu's name was assigned that he made a new material, but I think most people would not because most music is arranged.

[Datschge]

So it's both. What's the problem with that?

I think the biggest advantage of having per track credits is that the resulting album credits can be autogenerated, which again could be used to allow visitors to set their list display preferences. I'd prefer to know all albums to which a composer contributed new compositions. Others may prefer a list were new versions of a composer's music are featured. Again others may prefer just to see a list of new arrangements of a specific musician etc. etc. Trying to achieve this kind of flexibility by manually adding specific tags on an album level seems like a waste of time to me due to its inherent inflexibility.

[Dag]

For TBM2 since there it has new material I'd go with non-featured = shown in discography (or maybe 'both'?).

I guess I don't understand this particular issue at all. Uematsu composed the original tracks which were arranged in this example, and that's it. Why this dancing with "featured" and what do people want to have here that isn't there?The problem is how "featured" is used/understood/shown, which affects per-track credits anyway.

If you'd link per track to FF originals (or mark them "arranged") = essentially "featured" ('old stuff') per-track = TBM1 would be listed (as of now) with doujins = people don't like that. That's what I mean the core problem is the same (also: there isn't always an original to link, you'd still mark 'arranged'='featured' some tracks).

In doujins, artist "featured" = 'reused old stuff', so in regular albums it should mean the same imo. The dancing here is that right now it doesn't and we don't agree on it (mainly because of how it's listed I believe).

You say the artist listing would be auto-generated and could be changed on the fly. So the current display style would have to be changed, which we are discussing as well... no?


Think of the originals as products, they can appear on multiple media without ceasing to be originals.Oh yeah completely I agree. I just meant "linking to the (single) original track" can be messy when several albums 'are/have' the original, but on a second thought you could link to more than one.


Trying to achieve this kind of flexibility by manually adding specific tags on an album level seems like a waste of time to me due to its inherent inflexibility.Well... linking to originals/arrange marks per track = manually adding tags per track (but more detailed/harder), rather than per artist. The flexibility is the same, just on a lesser scale (either way you could know he did new stuff, just not which one on a glance). We all (?) agree having per-track info would great but until then...

[Datschge]

Dag, thank you for the clarification. (I wasn't aware it was all about that "featured on" section of artists, I though it was just a simple throw away section to separate the "lesser" doujins from the "superior" rest, i.e. a hack. I'd just suggest to fix this the right way, which is why the current discussion simply irritated me.)

If you'd link per track to FF originals (or mark them "arranged") = essentially "featured" ('old stuff') per-track = TBM1 would be listed (as of now) with doujins = people don't like that.
SS mentioned before that other sound related credits should ideally be eventually included in the database as well. So in the case of TBM1 Uematsu could get a credit as producer. If the visitor gets to choose what a discography of his definition should contain (composed, arranged, arranged by others) such additional credits could be offered as well (produced, directed, programmed etc.).

[Kaleb.G]

I'm sorry, I didn't make myself very clear. For example, The Black Mages II The Skies Above. This album has 11 tracks: ten are arranged and one is an original composition, "Blue Blast - Winning the Rainbow". In this album, I prefer that Nobuo Uematsu's name was assigned that he made a new material, but I think most people would not because most music is arranged.
Well, I agree with you here. Even if he only made one new track, he should still be marked as having new material for the album.

But as Datschge mentioned, when we have the new track schemas set up, we could provide this information on a track by track basis and have it autogenerated on the album level. I'd prefer that.