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  #181  
Old Dec 12, 2011, 01:14 PM
Hellacia Hellacia is offline
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The album title and the represented product don't have to match exactly in name because there really isn't a "correct" name to call something, it's just what different countries call it. Like seanne said, this site was created by and is largely used and maintained by English speakers, so the product represented giving the English name of a game (if there is one) is fine. Maybe I'm biased because I'm an English speaker and played NA releases of games, but... whatever

I think that because the product represented is in English, we can "afford" to have album titles that are romanized. I don't agree with what I believe is still a currently accepted guideline:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
If the game has an official english name, you may use it instead of the romanized Japanese name (Art of Fighting instead of Ryouko no Ken).
To me this doesn't make sense because this really isn't the title of the album in any country or in any form. In some country, yes, the game Ryouko no Ken is called Art of Fighting. But this album has one name and that is Ryouko no Ken. So, I think we should call it that. If there's English on it, like the Sword of Mana Premium Soundtrack, then we can put that in the English field, sure. But just totally replacing the only title of an album with one that matches up with our localized name for the game doesn't make much sense to me. And I feel that, because a search of the game's name will yield results including that album based on our product fields, we don't have to do that.
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  #182  
Old Dec 12, 2011, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanne View Post
...
Since we're primarily an English language website we'll use the English title, if there is one, as the display title even if it may cause some confusion for people more used to the original title. If you prefer to see original titles over the 'display' titles though, you can go into the site preferences (via the 'gear' icon at the top right of any page) and change "Title / Name Language" to 'Original'.

Additionally though, having the same popup showing the original names of artists that we have might be useful for 'products represented' as well.
there are two problems (sort of) about that
first is afaik it's like the only vgm/etc site currently active, and because of that, the site should be more "international" and avoid sectarianism (english, in the way to think releases)
second could be corrected or improved in the way what I've already seen a lot of titles bad-ordered (english in romaji field, jap in romaji, etc)
a textarea for all titles was a bad idea, even with the left help, it's messed up
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  #183  
Old Dec 12, 2011, 10:17 PM
Hellacia Hellacia is offline
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I think we care less about our image of being "international" and "non-sectarianism" and more about making this website easily accessible to its primary userbase. At least, this is what I think of us. Even though I only made an account recently I've been using VGMdb since it started. I remember the announcement for it on Gamingforce (I was like wth is happening to GMR oh noes). It's always been about making the knowledge of VGM accessible to overseas enthusiasts, and I don't want that to change just to try and beef up some image to an overall pretty small group of people interested enough to look into game music soundtracks. Hopefully I'm not the only one that feels this way

(Later edit: because we included product fields in this discussion, which I think just ended up confusing things, I'm currently unsure if you're talking about using the English title for products or album titles. In some way I find it bizarre to use a title for an album other than its only actual title, but it does relieve confusion for those trying to hunt it down. At the same time, now with product fields, we can relieve that confusion in a better way and so I think album titles should be their original title and we should always use the English title for a product if one exists. Hope that makes sense.)

And the text area for titles in different languages wasn't a bad idea, it was the only way to make anything remotely searchable for people that didn't go looking up the Japanese name of everything just to be able to find it. Now, like I said, we have the product entries to really help that along by being able to search something's English name and be brought to a product page for it listing CDs containing music from that product. We've come a long way from the beginning is really all that says. It seems superfluous now because we have things like product entries, but that started recently. We're spoiled now

Last edited by Hellacia; Dec 12, 2011 at 10:24 PM.
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  #184  
Old Dec 12, 2011, 11:54 PM
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if I think the textarea is a bad idea, that's mainly because of the format used for (album) titles -I explain
you can have a 1st title, a 2nd title, 1 or 2 CR, then a 3rd title (you could consider a 4th or 5th title)
but do you see that on the main page? no, it's like these CR are non-existent
so what's the point of that? I'm not even certain that you can have that info without "editing" the album itself

plus, that display/original/etc format is sometimes not respected and not corrected
maybe with a color system or icons (except for display title), it'd make the things clearer and give a purpose to that format

(same remark about lyricists, jan code and whatever other hidden info)
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  #185  
Old Dec 13, 2011, 12:28 AM
Hellacia Hellacia is offline
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I think there's still some things I'm not understanding. Sorry. First of all I don't know what CR stands for. Look, line 1 is the display name. If the official name is different than our display name, we include line 2. Line 3 is for romanizing the title. This is an excellent example of those 3 things. Lines 4+ are for anything else. I guess we use lines 4+ when we want to include Japanese characters that technically aren't on the soundtrack - like if the "official" name were something like 玉繭物語2 ~滅びの蟲~ ORIGINAL SOUNDTRACK and オリジナル・サウンドトラック was actually never written. Then we could put 玉繭物語2 ~滅びの蟲~ オリジナル・サウンドトラック to aid in searches. Like I said about the multiple titles already:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacia View Post
And the text area for titles in different languages wasn't a bad idea, it was the only way to make anything remotely searchable for people that didn't go looking up the Japanese name of everything just to be able to find it.
This is true for Japanese people wanting to search something whose original name isn't in Japanese. We can add a title that's in Japanese so that if they were to search for it, we don't just say "screw off and learn how to input the English title in Latin alphabet." And so we don't say to English speakers "screw off and get IDE or some shit and learn how to input Japanese characters and basically learn Japanese just so you can search some game soundtracks on a website."
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  #186  
Old Dec 13, 2011, 08:33 AM
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CR: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carriage_return

I think you don't get what I mean, I don't discuss about if those titles must exist or something
I discuss about the fact it's not used properly by certain users, and thus the order of titles is messed up and doesn't match the actual format
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  #187  
Old Dec 13, 2011, 08:40 AM
Hellacia Hellacia is offline
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Oh, well, shoot Phonograph, a lot of stuff isn't going to be done correctly by certain users. That's why all the rest of us are here to fix their mistakes and tell them "next time, do it this way." If every website took a functionality of theirs and said "well we shouldn't do it this way because some people do it wrong" then there wouldn't be a website in existence today that has any sort of functionality at all. Not to be a jerk, but this is supposed to be about a discussion about how we want the titles done, not a discussion about the users that do the titles wrong. You can't come up with a method of doing titles that someone isn't going to do wrong.

Also, thanks for explaining the carriage return, now I see what you mean. We have a first and second title, some carriage returns and then what is essentially a fourth or fifth title. Those are there for searching, so I'm not sure we want them to be displayed. (Cosmetically maybe we should only display the first title, but that's not something I care to discuss.)

Last edited by Hellacia; Dec 13, 2011 at 08:44 AM.
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  #188  
Old Mar 14, 2012, 05:53 AM
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(Discussion pulled from here

Well, I do agree about removing "Innovation".

We may be moving towards using Romaji as the display titles, but I still think it's contentious. It would be simpler (and some might say more correct) to drop from 3 titles to 2, and always use the full Romaji title. If there is any English or western text on the album cover, then the Romaji title is replaced with that. We probably don't really need any alternate titles beyond 2, as that seems to cause too much confusion. It's a simple set of rules for two lines that is really easy to follow. I'm not sure I like this proposal however.
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  #189  
Old Mar 14, 2012, 06:10 AM
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And have no English translation for the title? That seems counter productive and counter intuitive. Romaji is only appropriate for vocal songs or games/series without western releases. It bothers me to no end to see all the ghibli titles in romaji as default. I don't understand the reasoning for defaulting to romaji titles when we make such a concerted effort to translate and correlate track titles between various sources.
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  #190  
Old Mar 14, 2012, 07:52 AM
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Not the right place to discuss about this (use the title guideline please).
We should move this to the appropriate thread.

Well i don't know, i am semi-agree with you dancey, especially since the product linking (that only shows the localised name) there's something wrong behing all our logics.

Though i still think we should reflete the origin of the soundtrack on the title.
If we translate everything or use the localisation of the title, how could we differentiate foreign prints (Baten Kaitos: Eternal Wings and the Lost Ocean & Baten Kaitos: Owaranai Tsubasa to Ushinawareta Umi)

But yet there is still no standardization in the database.
All the Japanese Zelda stuff have been translated, but i think we are all reluctant to use [example] "Fatal Fury 2" for the current Garou Densetsu 2 entry.

Just make a big poll and let's decide once and for all what should we do.
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  #191  
Old Apr 3, 2012, 09:02 PM
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There should be a more objective way of doing this. The actual "display title" should be determined based on user preference.

I suggest making an album title table with the following fields:
ALBUM_TITLE_ID
ALBUM_ID
OFFICIAL (bool flag)
LANGUAGE
TITLE

OFFICIAL is a boolean. It states if this title is listed on the album proper (or by publisher correction).

LANGUAGE can either be a code or a reference key to a master language table. It will specify either "Japanese" (Kanji/Hiragana/Katakana), "Romaji", "English", "German", "French", "Korean", etc. If the title contains a mix of languages, it could be assigned to a "Mixed" language, or we could just pick one that is most prominent.

[EDIT: This table has a many-to-one relationship to the album table. This means you can have multiple titles, and even multiple official titles.]

THEN, the user can choose what they want to see first as the "display title" based on their preferred order of combined LANGUAGE and OFFICAL statuses. For example, my own setting might be:
A. English (official)
B. English (unofficial)
C. Romaji (official)
D. Romaji (unofficial)
E. Japanese (official)

One of you might opt instead for something like:
A. English (official)
B. Romaji (official)
C. Romaji (unofficial)
D. English (unofficial)
E. Japanese (official)

This may create more overhead with DB calls, though we could possibly find ways to optimize this. Perhaps we only have two settings:

1. Preferred Language: "English", "Japanese", etc.
2. Title Priority: "Preferred Language", "Official Title"

Choosing "English" & "Preferred Language" would be like my first example for my own setting, whereas choosing "English" & "Official Title" would be like my second example that one of you might choose.

Last edited by Kaleb.G; Apr 5, 2012 at 10:33 PM.
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  #192  
Old Apr 3, 2012, 09:25 PM
Hellacia Hellacia is offline
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Well, it would solve the display problem, though I think we'd all still find a way to argue over what the "official" title is
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  #193  
Old Apr 4, 2012, 10:12 AM
Zorbfish Zorbfish is offline
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Yes, that is the real problem worth addressing but ultimately too divisive to solve.
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  #194  
Old Apr 5, 2012, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacia View Post
Well, it would solve the display problem, though I think we'd all still find a way to argue over what the "official" title is
Not so. With my proposition, there can be multiple official titles. Anything that is listed on the album or by the publisher is deemed official.
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  #195  
Old Apr 5, 2012, 05:04 PM
Hellacia Hellacia is offline
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Oh, I see... maybe I don't understand your example then? Because you just have

English (official)
Romaji (official)
Japanese (official)

and so forth, broken down by languages. This would make giving the official Japanese title for CREID impossible - is it クリイド 光田康典&ミレニアル・フェア, or クリイド ゼノギアス アレンジヴァージョン?
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  #196  
Old Apr 5, 2012, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacia View Post
This would make giving the official Japanese title for CREID impossible - is it クリイド 光田康典&ミレニアル・フェア, or クリイド ゼノギアス アレンジヴァージョン?
So basically Katakana+Kanji vs. all Katakana? They'd both be official. Perhaps we could have some alternate language entries as well, such as:

Japanese (official) <= [first title goes here]
Japanese Katakana (official) <= [second title goes here]

Or we could just have a catch-all "Alternative" language for instances that don't fit the mold.

EDIT: But in the case of CREID, "Yasunori Mitsuda & Millennial Fair" is the artist name, not part of the album title. This is the standard for most non-soundtrack albums, and it is exactly what is happening here.

EDIT 2: I forgot you were one of the people who supported me on this, so you know the drill then.

Last edited by Kaleb.G; Apr 5, 2012 at 10:38 PM.
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  #197  
Old Apr 6, 2012, 06:40 AM
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This is an interesting idea, though I don't have a feeling for what we'd put in the "official" vs "unofficial" branches. The main problem with this isn't technical (tables query, etc.), it's that we have 32,000 albums that we would need to edit and expand to fix into the new system. That migration might have to be done manually. It's a major change, similar to the proposed track-linking system in that it requires simultaneous support of "old vgmdb" and "new vgmdb" until they are all moved over.

But if we don't do something like that, we still have this core divisive issue.
  1. Standardize Display Title to use Romanized titles using an offiical romanization scheme (maybe Hepburn)
  2. Standardize to favor an English release title where there is one, Romanized if there isn't. Also, translate non-title text like Ongakushu -> Music Collection
  3. No standard (what we are using now)

We are 3 right now. 1 and 2 both have things I don't like. For 1:
  • All "Genso Suikoden" -> Suikoden
  • Many "Dracula" -> Castlevania
  • (insert more examples here)

For 2:
  • Spirited Away Image Album -> Sen to Chihiro to Kamikakushi Imēji Arubamu
  • Preorder Campaign Drama CD -> Yoyaku Kyanpēn Tokuten Dorama CD
  • (I can find plenty more examples for this)

So, I'm not satisfied with either way. All of this stuff effects what you see in search results, collections, and marketplace pages, so it's important. Obviously Kaleb's suggestion gives more choices, and maybe the problem is that we don't have enough titles at present to accommodate what everone wants.
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  #198  
Old Apr 6, 2012, 09:55 AM
Hellacia Hellacia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaleb.G View Post
So basically Katakana+Kanji vs. all Katakana? They'd both be official.
It wasn't about kanji or kana, it was about one title vs. another. Multiple entries for a single language would fix it. Not sure what you'd call the different choices though - maybe just Japanese 1 and Japanese 2
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  #199  
Old Apr 6, 2012, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
This is an interesting idea, though I don't have a feeling for what we'd put in the "official" vs "unofficial" branches.
Simply, anything that is printed on the album art or specified by the publisher would be official. All derivations/romanizations of such things that do not appear on the album art or via the publisher are unofficial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
The main problem with this isn't technical (tables query, etc.), it's that we have 32,000 albums that we would need to edit and expand to fix into the new system. That migration might have to be done manually. It's a major change, similar to the proposed track-linking system in that it requires simultaneous support of "old vgmdb" and "new vgmdb" until they are all moved over.
I'm sure I could write some crazy queries to do it all systematically. Want me to draft something up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
But if we don't do something like that, we still have this core divisive issue.
  1. Standardize Display Title to use Romanized titles using an offiical romanization scheme (maybe Hepburn)
  2. Standardize to favor an English release title where there is one, Romanized if there isn't. Also, translate non-title text like Ongakushu -> Music Collection
  3. No standard (what we are using now)
With my proposition, the display title would be chosen by the user, though there would indeed need to be a default selection. I say we could leave that part up to a vote.

Here's another possible idea for selecting the "display title". Up in the header of the site we could have a language dropbox or some selection of flags. The selection would be stored in a cookie, and allow users who are not logged in to pick a preference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacia View Post
It wasn't about kanji or kana, it was about one title vs. another. Multiple entries for a single language would fix it. Not sure what you'd call the different choices though - maybe just Japanese 1 and Japanese 2
Yes, my proposition could allow for multiple official entries for the same language.

In fact, it would be needed anyway, because there are many cases where a game released in North America has a different title from the same game released in Europe, even though they would both be in English.

Though, when I think of it, all of this unofficial album naming based on regionized game titles overlaps with the product system a lot... to the point where the whole notion should either be dropped, or there could be some integration between them.
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  #200  
Old Apr 6, 2012, 11:56 AM
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Well, I don't need to see queries, because the only reasonable way to migrate is to take our 3 most commonly used title lines and map them directly to 3 of the lines in your proposal, probably [official English, official Japanese, official romanized], unless we want to declare them all unofficial until they are hand-checked.

I think what would help would be to take a few albums and gives some examples of what would go in each of the proposed title lines.

Another curiosity. I wonder if anyone actually uses the Japanese or Romaji display titles as their default titles within our current user preference selections.
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  #201  
Old Apr 6, 2012, 01:14 PM
Xenofan 29A Xenofan 29A is offline
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Quote:
I wonder if anyone actually uses the Japanese or Romaji display titles as their default titles within our current user preference selections.
I use Japanese (actually original language), but it trips me up when the title is in something other than Japanese or English. I can't read Chinese, Korean, or Russian at all.
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  #202  
Old Apr 8, 2012, 01:34 PM
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After further review, it would probably be best for the "official" boolean to be paired with another bool called "primary", as you will see below. There would be a restriction to allow only one "official primary" title per language as well as only one "unofficial primary" title per language. There can be as many "alternate" (opposite of "primary") titles as you want. Optionally, you could combine both booleans into a single field.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
Well, I don't need to see queries, because the only reasonable way to migrate is to take our 3 most commonly used title lines and map them directly to 3 of the lines in your proposal, probably [official English, official Japanese, official romanized], unless we want to declare them all unofficial until they are hand-checked.
I think it's safe to say more titles are official than unofficial. It would be easier to go this way. Though if you're worried about inaccuracy, you could always have an extra field boolean for temporary use called "unknown", or something of the sort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
I think what would help would be to take a few albums and gives some examples of what would go in each of the proposed title lines.
LC-1713~4
Romaji [official primary]: Akumajo-Dracula Ubawareta kokuin Original Soundtrack
Japanese [official primary]: 悪魔城ドラキュラ 奪われた刻印 オリジナルサウンドトラック
English [unofficial primary]: Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia Original Soundtrack

SSCX-10018
English [official primary]: CREID
Japanese [official primary]: クリイド
English [official alternate]: CREID Yasunori Mitsuda & Millennial Fair
Japanese [official alternate]: クリイド 光田康典&ミレニアル・フェア
Yasunori's website lists the album title as "CREID", so we know the rest is just the artist, but we have those titles here as "official alternate" for searchability. It's possible we could call them "unofficial", but they are technically on the albums, so it could go either way.

SSCX-10004
English [official primary]: FINAL FANTASY VII ORIGINAL SOUND TRACK
Japanese [official primary]: ファイナルファンタジーⅦ オリジナル・サウンドトラック
English [official alternate]: "FINAL FANTASY VII" Original Sound Track
This is a case where there are two official English titles (compare front with back spine) that are variations of each other. This is where the primary flag comes in handy. Now, if you wanted to alter the titles slightly for capitalization or whatnot, that's OK too.

Keep in mind the ordering of these titles is irrelevant, because it will eventually be based on user preferences.

EDIT: If you have specific albums you'd like to discuss, let me know.

Last edited by Kaleb.G; Apr 8, 2012 at 01:38 PM.
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  #203  
Old Aug 6, 2012, 03:00 PM
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I think this particular line should be removed from the album entry guide as it's pretty much confusing.
Quote:
If the game has an official english name, you may use it instead of the romanized Japanese name (Art of Fighting instead of Ryouko no Ken).
I think most of us are using romaji for non-any romanized text on scans as a display title.

Generally speaking the guide is out of date.
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  #204  
Old Aug 6, 2012, 06:05 PM
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I'll pull it out of the instructions to avoid confusion, though I don't think this should mean that it's time to go through the database and edit all our current submissions. I'm still hesitant to make an official call on this. Also, I should apologize for not pursuing the discussion on Kaleb's proposal back in April.
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  #205  
Old Aug 6, 2012, 09:33 PM
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No problem. My method was mainly meant to allow for flexibility. Really, it doesn't matter much to me what you decide on as long as we're consistent about it. Also, the official rules should be listed directly on the album add/edit page(s) so there is no confusion. They should always be kept up to date.
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