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  #31  
Old Feb 26, 2010, 02:51 PM
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I've made the proposed changes to the title submission instructions, and updated the first post.

It looks like we're mostly discussing an overhaul of the multiple title system.
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  #32  
Old Feb 26, 2010, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedille View Post
Um, I also might be not sure about your question, but I thought we could be both faithful to what publishers provided on the covers in one line and consistent with the way we sorted albums out in another line, and there are indeed some entries where the almost only difference between the display and original lines is capitalization (like this).
I don't see how that would help much given that sorting is case insensitive, as is searching.
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  #33  
Old Feb 26, 2010, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ira View Post
I don't see how that would help much given that sorting is case insensitive, as is searching.
I didn't explicitly mention it but capitalization wasn't the only discretion. It can happen, as a result of following the cover front, that only one album is attached with the prefix that aren't shared by the subsequent releases (e.g. only the first installment of anime TotA Drama albums has 'TV animation' prefix on the front cover). In this case, we can keep the display titles of all the four albums consistent for sorting and searching, while leaving what's actually printed in another line for accuracy. I know this thread is for the guideline planning, not my suggestion of my ideal VGMdb, so perhaps I should have focused on what's the possible best under the current system.

One thing I still don't quite understand is what's seen as the 'original', especially when both English and Japanese are printed (like this).
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  #34  
Old Feb 26, 2010, 04:02 PM
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For the title colon thing. I assume we're going with a "Main Title: Sub Title 1 / Sub Title 2" format and not a "Main Title : Sub Title 1 / Sub Title 2" format; correct?
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  #35  
Old Feb 26, 2010, 04:07 PM
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Yeah, I only put the extra space in so that it wouldn't turn into a smiley in vB code.
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  #36  
Old Feb 26, 2010, 05:50 PM
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Okay, the [Limited Edition] tag is implemented, and I've eliminated most redundancies. There are still some oddities that we'll have to figure out, like this. Also, if Limited Edition is part of the title, it should remain even though the tag will be redundant.

The nice thing about this is, now we can decide on a format. I just went with [Limited Edition], but we can change it.

Also, this should help us ferret out some of the locations that aren't using the new album classes. If you see anywhere that's not appending the tag, please point them out.
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  #37  
Old Feb 27, 2010, 04:55 AM
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Nice thing SS.

Should we remove the "limited edition" titles from the previous entries?
Like this one.. have limited edition twice on the title now
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  #38  
Old Feb 27, 2010, 04:56 AM
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Yeah, those need to be fixed.
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  #39  
Old Feb 27, 2010, 05:03 AM
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I left them on a few titles, where it was apparent that "Limited Edition" was actually mentioned on the cover, or where it wasn't clear. The remaining ones are these:

http://vgmdb.net/search?do=results&id=56292

which should be discussed.
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  #40  
Old Feb 27, 2010, 07:33 AM
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Could the tag be made so that it's clear that it is actually a tag and not part of the album name? Maybe the event tag would look good?
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  #41  
Old Feb 27, 2010, 08:01 AM
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Well, it might be able to be done, but the title is used in a variety of different locations with differing styles, so it would have to be the right form and size that it works in all of them, from the big titles on the album pages to the medium titles in the search results, to the little titles in Related Albums.
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  #42  
Old Feb 27, 2010, 10:12 PM
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OK, after seeing some of the album title submissions for a couple Castlevania albums, I'd like to propose the following:

"As little user intervention in changing the titles as possible to present suitable English and Japanese titles."

If an album lists both an English and Japanese title, use those for Display and Original respectively (e.g. Castlevania Circle of the Moon & Castlevania Concerto of Midnight Sun Original Soundtrack). Don't go making up some new translation.

In the case of Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow & Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow Original Soundtrack, the Romaji title is not suitable for the Display title. The official English game titles are most suitable. Think about it for a minute...

We have two main types of people coming here, English-speaking people who are familiar with the English titles of the games they've played, and Japanese users who are searching with Japanese characters. For the few weeaboos who want to see Romaji titles all over, we already have an option for that. They aren't entirely reliable to be searched on anyway due to the subtle differences in how many things are Romanized.

What are your thoughts?

Last edited by Kaleb.G; Feb 27, 2010 at 10:14 PM.
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  #43  
Old Feb 27, 2010, 11:08 PM
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Oh, and by the way, I'm now finding myself agreeing with you on the use of artist names in album titles in a way, simply because I find that when physically organizing* my non-game albums by Lu7, Hiroki Kikuta, etc., it makes more sense to me to have them grouped by artist rather than album title alone. Of course, this is specifically for "Original Works" albums.

*as in: on my shelf
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  #44  
Old Feb 28, 2010, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaleb.G View Post
OK, after seeing some of the album title submissions for a couple Castlevania albums, I'd like to propose the following:

"As little user intervention in changing the titles as possible to present suitable English and Japanese titles."

If an album lists both an English and Japanese title, use those for Display and Original respectively (e.g. Castlevania Circle of the Moon & Castlevania Concerto of Midnight Sun Original Soundtrack). Don't go making up some new translation.

In the case of Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow & Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow Original Soundtrack, the Romaji title is not suitable for the Display title. The official English game titles are most suitable. Think about it for a minute...

We have two main types of people coming here, English-speaking people who are familiar with the English titles of the games they've played, and Japanese users who are searching with Japanese characters. For the few weeaboos who want to see Romaji titles all over, we already have an option for that. They aren't entirely reliable to be searched on anyway due to the subtle differences in how many things are Romanized.

What are your thoughts?
Doesn't this fall under "Don't submit a literal translation of a game's name if it differs from the official English game name,"?
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  #45  
Old Feb 28, 2010, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaleb.G View Post
OK, after seeing some of the album title submissions for a couple Castlevania albums, I'd like to propose the following:

"As little user intervention in changing the titles as possible to present suitable English and Japanese titles."

If an album lists both an English and Japanese title, use those for Display and Original respectively (e.g. Castlevania Circle of the Moon & Castlevania Concerto of Midnight Sun Original Soundtrack). Don't go making up some new translation.
I tend to agree with this. I generally think we should only go with a romanization of the original title as the display title in cases where the original and localized titles are completely different (e.g. Sekaiju no MeiQ / Etrian Odyssey). Problem with the Castlevania series though is that while some titles are more or less literal translations there are others that differ entirely.

So it can become a question of either going with what the album is undeniably called, or what 'would make people recognize it easier'.
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  #46  
Old Feb 28, 2010, 02:21 PM
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I thought I'd put together a kind of decision tree to help describe what we seem to be talking about with respect to titles. The idea here is that what goes into each title is prioritized. This isn't a final prioritization, but I think it follows what is being discussed here (please correct me if I missed something.)

Quote:
  • Display
    1. English title that appears on Front Cover (or Obi) with game name corrected if official game name differs, and other minor corrections permitted.
    2. English localized game title + best translation of the rest of the title, if the game has an official English equivalent.
    3. Romanized game title + best translation of the rest of the title, if there is no official English title for the game.
  • Original
    1. Album name in album's native language exactly as it appears on Front (or Obi).
    2. If everything is English, Album title as it appears on Front (or Obi) with no correction, unless this is the same as the Display title.
    3. Otherwise, leave blank.
  • Romanized
    1. Official romanization of Asian titles (doesn't have to conform to VGMdb's romanization scheme).
    2. Best full romanization of Asian titles if one is not available (conforms to VGMdb's romanization scheme).
    3. If nothing to romanize, or if Display title is already romanized, leave blank.
  • Alternate
    • English localized game title + best translation of the rest of the title, if this was not included as Display title.
    • Uncorrected English title that appears on Front Cover if it differs from Display, and if a Japanese title was used in Original.
    • Japanese official title for a Japanese works released with only English titles on the album. (for serachability)
    • Fan translation of Game Title + best translation of the rest of the title, for those albums for which it is appropriate.
    • Can be blank if none are needed.
I think the major change I added here is the idea that Original should be the title as it actually appears regardless of language. This means that there are plenty of Japanese titles that will need to be moved to Alternate.

The main difference then is that we can fix some things in Display, but Original should be exactly what's on the cover (and with the Japanese taking precedence there.)
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  #47  
Old Feb 28, 2010, 03:07 PM
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Looking great so far SS.
I am agree with this proposal.

What if a game have a different title in the USA & Europe ?
I don't have much examples in mind, but here's come one (currently not in the database, again this is an example)
新創世紀ラグナセンティ is a cute RPG on megadrive
it can be romanized as Shin Souseiki Ragnacenty
US version is Crusader of Centy
EU version is Soleil

i bet US will prime.. but this is debatable..
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  #48  
Old Feb 28, 2010, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
...
You seem to be emphasizing the use of only what's printed on the album, but didn't you say that at least trademarks should be based on how the publisher prints it elsewhere (because of stylistic variations?) And because I'm pushy about these things, Why only trademarks? If the publisher prints the title a different way (consistently) online/elsewhere can't that be assumed to be the correct title and the one printed on the album a stylistic one?
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  #49  
Old Feb 28, 2010, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
* Display
1. English title that appears on Front Cover (or Obi) with game name corrected if official game name differs, and other minor corrections permitted.
2. English localized game title + best translation of the rest of the title, if the game has an official English equivalent.
3. Romanized game title + best translation of the rest of the title, if there is no official English title for the game.
* Original
1. Album name in album's native language exactly as it appears on Front (or Obi).
2. If everything is English, Album title as it appears on Front (or Obi) with no correction, unless this is the same as the Display title.
3. Otherwise, leave blank.
* Romanized
1. Official romanization of Asian titles (doesn't have to conform to VGMdb's romanization scheme).
2. Best full romanization of Asian titles if one is not available (conforms to VGMdb's romanization scheme).
3. If nothing to romanize, or if Display title is already romanized, leave blank.
* Alternate
o English localized game title + best translation of the rest of the title, if this was not included as Display title.
o Uncorrected English title that appears on Front Cover if it differs from Display, and if a Japanese title was used in Original.
o Japanese official title for a Japanese works released with only English titles on the album. (for serachability)
o Fan translation of Game Title + best translation of the rest of the title, for those albums for which it is appropriate.
o Can be blank if none are needed.
I like this very much, and I agree this is how we should proceed.

The only thing I had an issue with previously is the corrections in Display #1, but that also contradicts the point I had about English speakers searching for album titles by the English game titles. I now take it back, and concede to what you have proposed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ira View Post
You seem to be emphasizing the use of only what's printed on the album, but didn't you say that at least trademarks should be based on how the publisher prints it elsewhere (because of stylistic variations?) And because I'm pushy about these things, Why only trademarks? If the publisher prints the title a different way (consistently) online/elsewhere can't that be assumed to be the correct title and the one printed on the album a stylistic one?
Which title are you referring to though? In the case of Display #1, SS said that it would have the "game name corrected if official game name differs, and other minor corrections permitted". Essentially, the Display name is going to make the album as easily recognizable for English speakers as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrkul View Post
What if a game have a different title in the USA & Europe ?
My opinion is we should go with the title of the first chronological English publication.

Last edited by Kaleb.G; Feb 28, 2010 at 06:17 PM.
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  #50  
Old Feb 28, 2010, 08:00 PM
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Is it preferable to edit the albums where the artist name is added in a different way than the front cover and spine or our [.../ Artist] format? (like this, unless I'm missing something). Or if the form is provided by the official site or such, leave it? (like how this album is presented on the official site). I know this is also our discretion, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
I think the major change I added here is the idea that Display should be the title as it actually appears regardless of language.
You mean, Original
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  #51  
Old Feb 28, 2010, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ira View Post
You seem to be emphasizing the use of only what's printed on the album, but didn't you say that at least trademarks should be based on how the publisher prints it elsewhere (because of stylistic variations?) And because I'm pushy about these things, Why only trademarks? If the publisher prints the title a different way (consistently) online/elsewhere can't that be assumed to be the correct title and the one printed on the album a stylistic one?
Where would you place those in this hierarchy? (note that there might be both English and Japanese titles from the official website)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedille View Post
Is it preferable to edit the albums where the artist name is added in a different way than the front cover and spine or our [.../ Artist] format? (like this, unless I'm missing something).
We could edit them, but I don't expect it's mandatory. If more people change their minds, we could end up going with [ Artist / ] as the standard instead. Note though that album is actually [ / Artist ] on the spine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedille View Post
You mean, Original
Oops, i'd better fix that.
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  #52  
Old Mar 1, 2010, 01:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
We could edit them, but I don't expect it's mandatory. If more people change their minds, we could end up going with [ Artist / ] as the standard instead. Note though that album is actually [ / Artist ] on the spine.
I agree we should have a standardized format (I don't care what it is), but my feeling is that it should only be applied to the Display field if the Original title order is different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
Well, the format allows them. The question is whether to include a literal translation (Cross of the Blue Moon) of the Japanese game simply because an album-ripping group chose to release it like that.
Continuing off the Aria/Dawn of Sorrow thread... What do you say about a review site that uses the title? I'm just trying to decide what criteria we can use to determine whether a fan translation is suitable enough to be included as an Alternate title.

P.S. This and this.

Last edited by Kaleb.G; Mar 1, 2010 at 01:38 AM.
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  #53  
Old Mar 1, 2010, 06:07 AM
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I bet we could talk Ramza and Chris into changing those titles. I think that VGMdb's role should be fixing these issues, rather than supporting them.
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  #54  
Old Mar 1, 2010, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
If everything is English, Album title as it appears on Front (or Obi) with no correction, unless this is the same as the Display title.
Does this include only partial all caps titles, or ones where everything is in caps as well?

Quote:
Fan translation of Game Title + best translation of the rest of the title, for those albums for which it is appropriate.
I think we should use this in very few cases, and only if the game is unreleased in English. I'm thinking cases where a game is fan translated and then becomes popular. Cave Story is a good example of what I mean.

Quote:
Well, the format allows them. The question is whether to include a literal translation (Cross of the Blue Moon) of the Japanese game simply because an album-ripping group chose to release it like that.
It doesn't make a lot of sense, no. If we add the literal translation for this album we should do it for every applicable album. Basically, if someone wants to know he can ask in the thread.
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Last edited by seanne; Mar 1, 2010 at 12:16 PM.
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  #55  
Old Mar 1, 2010, 12:46 PM
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I personally am against changing the english title translation often found in the soundtracks with official game's names for the display field.

Moreover, I think it's a bit contradicting with the spirit that's used elsewhere. I've seen rejected some corrections to the tracklist when the error was blatant. That, to adhere to the principle "let's stay with what's printed on the cover at all costs".

Now I see that titles that already have an english translation in the actual CDs are disregarded in favor of translations taken from the games, perhaps in an effort to ease the search function. Although I must say, I am against this. I would prefer to stay close to the original cd source for a variety of reasons, and I must add that the search function looks into several sub fields already, so the search is quite extended. That, and I really cannot imagine someone looking for a Castlevania CD that doesn't also think to try a search for the word "Dracula".

Edit: in other words, I prefer Original / Romanized criteria over the one labeled as "Display" in Squirrel's above post.
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  #56  
Old Mar 1, 2010, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Gambler View Post
I personally am against changing the english title translation often found in the soundtracks with official game's names for the display field.

Moreover, I think it's a bit contradicting with the spirit that's used elsewhere. I've seen rejected some corrections to the tracklist when the error was blatant. That, to adhere to the principle "let's stay with what's printed on the cover at all costs".

Now I see that titles that already have an english translation in the actual CDs are disregarded in favor of translations taken from the games, perhaps in an effort to ease the search function. Although I must say, I am against this. I would prefer to stay close to the original cd source for a variety of reasons, and I must add that the search function looks into several sub fields already, so the search is quite extended. That, and I really cannot imagine someone looking for a Castlevania CD that doesn't also think to try a search for the word "Dracula".

Edit: in other words, I prefer Original / Romanized criteria over the one labeled as "Display" in Squirrel's above post.
Those numbered items are in order of priority, so the first choice for the Display title is any English title printed on the cover/obi. We only fall back to English Game name for the Display title when there is no english text on the album. We preserve the title as displayed, but there are some things to be fixed. For example:

http://vgmdb.net/db/covers.php?do=view&cover=9409

I don't think we'd want to call this AKUMAJO DRACURA BEST as the display title, when we know it's Dracula. This could go as an alternate in Line 4.

About the inconsistencies, this goal of this whole process is to work through them and fix them. Everything will be considered, and it means that some policies might be changed.
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  #57  
Old Mar 1, 2010, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
We only fall back to English Game name for the Display title when there is no english text on the album.
Oh ok, but the last couple of changes weren't into that direction. There's english text for LC1453-54 http://vgmdb.net/db/covers.php?do=view&cover=30898

Does the search function works for all the four lines?

I also think that, for display line, romanization is better than fanmade/unofficial translation. Example: Mokushiroku > Apocalypse, Ubawareta Kokuin > Stolen Seal.

The only thing that prevents me from applying these changes myself is that it seems were not 100% sure about the criteria to follow.
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  #58  
Old Mar 1, 2010, 01:36 PM
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Another interesting case to take into consideration is when we have romanization AND official english text on the album, and we should choose.

Examples: KMCA 104-5.

We can go for "Nendaiki" or "Chronicle" - they are both correct. ("Chronicles" plural would be incorrect: it's the western term used for the game). Which one should prevail, romanization or english text? In this case it doesn't matter much, but in this other case:

KMCA-162

Here we have a romanization that would suggest to use in display "Akumajo Dracula Circle of the Moon" and an english text that says "Castlevania Circle of the Moon". Akumajo Dracula and Castlevania have been declared equal, so we could go with the english text; however, since the series went under a process of brand renaming in Japan with Harmony of Dissonance, we have that title which is correctly called Castlevania in both texts.
In this case, it would probably be better to use the romanization, to underline the fact that in its original Japanese text one game is presented as "Akumajo Dracula", while the other is presented as "Castlevania".

(please note that while this doubt concerns KMCA-162, it doesn't concern LC-1453, because the english text in that cd does reflect the Japanese original text better).

Last edited by The Gambler; Mar 1, 2010 at 01:39 PM.
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  #59  
Old Mar 1, 2010, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Best full romanization of Asian titles if one is not available (conforms to VGMdb's romanization scheme).
Is this scheme finalized? All what I know is to avoid macron and keep particles lower case, and pretty much everything else varies depending on each submitters (in my case, it's varies from day to day, as I suck at this )

Quote:
Official romanization of Asian titles (doesn't have to conform to VGMdb's romanization scheme).
And does this mean macron is allowed?

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  #60  
Old Mar 1, 2010, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
Where would you place those in this hierarchy? (note that there might be both English and Japanese titles from the official website)
I think if the title listed on online is different what's from printed on the album (and is used consistently,) that the title should take priority as the original title. As for both Japanese and English being on the official site, well we have the same thing with album covers, it should be treated in the same manner (usually Japanese title as original and English as display.) The exception I'd make is if the Japanese title is simply a reading of the English title then it shouldn't be included or it should be set as an alternate for searchability (unless the reading is also on the album cover as part of the title.) And hell, there's also weird cases like Sphere Caliber where it's printed 'Sphere Calibar' on the album and 'Sphere Caliber' on the site, I assume the error was corrected after the albums had already been printed so it was a bit too late to fix, but the site was at least fixed (most shops also list it as caliber.) But I digress, my position is as I said before. My only point to add is that there's some weird cases where discretion is needed on part of the editor.
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