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  #61  
Old Mar 1, 2010, 04:28 PM
Ira Ira is offline
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Also I'm not sure if this has been touched on, but when romanizing titles I think proper casing should be used unless it's explicitly written in an alternate way (glorious upper case etc.)
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  #62  
Old Mar 1, 2010, 05:51 PM
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I'm beginning to think it would be easier to have separate fields for all these different types of titles (e.g. "English Original", "Japanese Original", "English Original Substituting Official Game Titles", "Romanized", and so on), and then have the display field selected programmatically and based on user options.
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  #63  
Old Mar 1, 2010, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by The Gambler View Post
Oh ok, but the last couple of changes weren't into that direction. There's english text for LC1453-54 http://vgmdb.net/db/covers.php?do=view&cover=30898
Yeah, that one is my fault. At that time, it didn't seem like it made sense to follow that romanization.

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Originally Posted by The Gambler View Post
Does the search function works for all the four lines?
Yeah, it searches all of them.

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Originally Posted by The Gambler View Post
I also think that, for display line, romanization is better than fanmade/unofficial translation. Example: Mokushiroku > Apocalypse, Ubawareta Kokuin > Stolen Seal.
I agree with that too, because they are just fan translations.

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Originally Posted by The Gambler View Post
KMCA-162
By these new guidelines, the 1st and 4th line would be swapped.

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Originally Posted by Cedille View Post
I forgot about this one. It turns out that the macron is part of the official title in English, so technically we should include it everywhere. I think the European accented characters are part of the latin character set, though I think we have a precedent of exchanging ß for ss.
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  #64  
Old Mar 1, 2010, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ira View Post
I think if the title listed on online is different what's from printed on the album (and is used consistently,) that the title should take priority as the original title. As for both Japanese and English being on the official site, well we have the same thing with album covers, it should be treated in the same manner (usually Japanese title as original and English as display.) The exception I'd make is if the Japanese title is simply a reading of the English title then it shouldn't be included or it should be set as an alternate for searchability (unless the reading is also on the album cover as part of the title.) And hell, there's also weird cases like Sphere Caliber where it's printed 'Sphere Calibar' on the album and 'Sphere Caliber' on the site, I assume the error was corrected after the albums had already been printed so it was a bit too late to fix, but the site was at least fixed (most shops also list it as caliber.) But I digress, my position is as I said before. My only point to add is that there's some weird cases where discretion is needed on part of the editor.
The display title (as worded above) allows for some amount of correction, so this could fall under that. I take it though that you want to change it to explicitly use the official website instead of the cover/obi as the primary source.

Anyway, some examples would be helpful to illustrate. How would you title this album as it appears on Lantis' site.

Compare to our entry here.

(Note, this may be a trick question, in that it's debatable whether Lantis is actually trying to communicate a title here. Their format looks more like Platform Category "Game" / Classification. Still, it's what we've got)

One other point: quite a few albums -- possibly the majority -- don't have an official mention on a current publisher's webpage.

I'd be curious to see some more examples. I'm not against it, and there have been times that I liked the title on the official site better (especially when it was more descriptive), but I don't know where to fit this in, generally.

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Originally Posted by Kaleb.G View Post
I'm beginning to think it would be easier to have separate fields for all these different types of titles (e.g. "English Original", "Japanese Original", "English Original Substituting Official Game Titles", "Romanized", and so on), and then have the display field selected programmatically and based on user options.
I think that would complicate things more (though I said that recently about tracklist titles.)

Two things that concern me:
  1. With all of these different titles to consider, we might have some albums with too many titles. I think if we get beyond 4, it starts to get too cluttered.
  2. By applying a rigid set of rules, we might be forced into some titles that just don't look right. So if you find an example that would be out of whack, make sure to post it here so we can consider things.
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  #65  
Old Mar 1, 2010, 08:05 PM
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I think that would complicate things more (though I said that recently about tracklist titles.
Well, if everyone can agree with the hierarchy you proposed, we shouldn't need it. I just think there is still some discord for some people. I personally feel things are fine just as you've proposed. And for the people who prefer the Original or Romanized titles, we have options for them.

All that is to be ironed out in the hierarchy now is how things like capitalization and title sourcing (from where we should take certain titles; e.g. publisher's site, obi, etc.) should be handled.

Small topic: When I changed the title for the Aria/Dawn of Sorrow OST, I had no idea that it actually had the Romanized title printed on the spine (thus again, making me contradict the point I initially made about the Circle of the Moon OST). In this case, would we list this title only under the Romanized title section rather than in the Alternate title section?

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Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
I agree with that too, because they are just fan translations.
I think my only support for fan translations over Romanizations is the fact that a large majority of our tracklists are handled this way (and thank God, too).

Last edited by Kaleb.G; Mar 1, 2010 at 08:10 PM.
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  #66  
Old Mar 1, 2010, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
I take it though that you want to change it to explicitly use the official website instead of the cover/obi as the primary source.
If it is available and that title is used consistently by other sources (shops, etc.), yes.

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Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
Anyway, some examples would be helpful to illustrate. How would you title this album as it appears on Lantis' site.

Compare to our entry here.

(Note, this may be a trick question, in that it's debatable whether Lantis is actually trying to communicate a title here. Their format looks more like Platform Category "Game" / Classification. Still, it's what we've got)
Yeah, that's an odd case, but "TVアニメ『キミキス pure rouge』 キャラクターソングアルバム" seems to be the title. This is also what shops list it as. For instance see: rakuten, Amazon, iTunes, etc.

Edit: also this search for that title gives 104 results whereas searching for the title in the database gives us 14 results (both result counts are without omitted results.)

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Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
I'd be curious to see some more examples.
I can't think of too many off the top of my head, they're out there however (you presented one more.)

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Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
I forgot about this one. It turns out that the macron is part of the official title in English, so technically we should include it everywhere. I think the European accented characters are part of the latin character set, though I think we have a precedent of exchanging ß for ss.
Problem here is it hurts searchability, unless the title without the macron is included as an alternate.

Last edited by Ira; Mar 1, 2010 at 08:23 PM.
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  #67  
Old Mar 1, 2010, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ira View Post
Yeah, that's an odd case, but "TVアニメ『キミキス pure rouge』 キャラクターソングアルバム" seems to be the title. This is also what shops list it as. For instance see: rakuten, Amazon, iTunes, etc.
Following that example:

Here's another. Character Song & Drama CD vs Character File.

Here is a TV Anime "D.C.~Da Capo~" Hatsunejima Best: D.C. ~Da Capo~ Best Selection.

This one is an ... Original Soundtrack Original Soundtrack.

I wonder if we should go with the wording "Best choice of [Front Cover, Side, Obi, Website]", and leave it up to discretion, since no single one manages to work for all cases.


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Originally Posted by Ira View Post
Problem here is it hurts searchability, unless the title without the macron is included as an alternate.
It's fine because the character set we are using allows searches with or without the macrons. Try searching on Ōkami and see. (Probably not fine for ß)
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  #68  
Old Mar 1, 2010, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
I wonder if we should go with the wording "Best choice of [Front Cover, Side, Obi, Website]", and leave it up to discretion, since no single one manages to work for all cases.
That's basically what I've been trying to say. Go with what makes the most sense. And yeah, a lot of the ones you mentioned are awkward, but I'd probably check what product name the publishers provided vendors and at least offer it as an alternate title to increase searchability (this isn't always going to be consistent I know, but I usually try and go with what's most used.)

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Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
It's fine because the character set we are using allows searches with or without the macrons. Try searching on Ōkami and see. (Probably not fine for ß)
Ah, well that simplifies things then.
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  #69  
Old Mar 1, 2010, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Kaleb.G View Post
Small topic: When I changed the title for the Aria/Dawn of Sorrow OST, I had no idea that it actually had the Romanized title printed on the spine (thus again, making me contradict the point I initially made about the Circle of the Moon OST). In this case, would we list this title only under the Romanized title section rather than in the Alternate title section?
Generally I'd say yes, though I think that romanization qualifies as the Display title according to the hierarchy rule candidate, since it's the only English text on the album. I don't know if this is acceptable or if we need to rework it.

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Originally Posted by Kaleb.G View Post
I think my only support for fan translations over Romanizations is the fact that a large majority of our tracklists are handled this way (and thank God, too).
We're only talking about Romanizing game names (particularly those that were never localized to the West), because we consider them proper names.

Tracklists get translated, but we still Romanize names in them. 東京 becomes Tokyo, not Eastern Capital (which we could get by translating the kanji one-by-one.)
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  #70  
Old Mar 1, 2010, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ira View Post
but I'd probably check what product name the publishers provided vendors and at least offer it as an alternate title to increase searchability (this isn't always going to be consistent I know, but I usually try and go with what's most used.)
So could you determine what's the official and best capitalization of kimikiss and amagami?
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  #71  
Old Mar 1, 2010, 09:19 PM
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So could you determine what's the official and best capitalization of kimikiss and amagami?
Hmm, for kimikiss everywhere I've seen it written on the official site has it written in all lower case (and there's one CD with an english title that backs this up.) However, the (official) english manga has it written as "KimiKiss". I'd stick with "kimikiss" myself. Amagami seems to be written in proper case on the official website, so "Amagami" seems like a safe bet.
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  #72  
Old Mar 1, 2010, 09:39 PM
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Hmm, for kimikiss everywhere I've seen it written on the official site has it written in all lower case (and there's one CD with an english title that backs this up.) However, the (official) english manga has it written as "KimiKiss".
What's written on the game official site looks like KimiKiSS to me Perhaps it requires some knowledge of font or such to determine it, and I tend to suck at this. As much as I prefer to keep the game name on the display title consistent (and that may be what 'correction' means) anyway, I feel it's sometimes hard, or even subjective to determine what's the official game name, especially when the capitalization is concerned.

This album is another case where I can't break the capitalization that well.

Last edited by Cedille; Mar 1, 2010 at 09:43 PM.
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  #73  
Old Mar 1, 2010, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Cedille View Post
What's written on the game official site looks like KimiKiSS to me Perhaps it requires some knowledge of font or such to determine it, and I tend to suck at this. As much as I prefer to keep the game name on the display title consistent (and that may be what 'correction' means) anyway, I feel it's sometimes hard, or even subjective to determine what's the official game name, especially when the capitalization is concerned. This album is another case which I'm not really sure."]This[/URL] is another case I can't break the capitalization.
Well, I was unsure about the way the S was printed myself, but the album with the name in the title supports it being lower case. And yes, basing stuff of stylistic printing is always tricky, which is why I prefer trying to get the product name online to begin with. If only more publishers would make that information available.
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  #74  
Old Mar 2, 2010, 03:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ira View Post
I think if the title listed on online is different what's from printed on the album (and is used consistently,) that the title should take priority as the original title.
The problem with this is that official sites and vendors often use descriptive titles that aren't necessarily part of the album title. For example:

TVアニメ『キミキス pure rouge』 <- Platform 『Game Name』

キャラクターソングアルバム <- Album Title, without Game Name

Basically, official sites and vendors don't always provide correct information, as given on the album packaging. Both titles, tracklists and other information can be wrong since they don't necessarily have the same quality control (and anal-ness) we do - additionally information can be put up on sites before the album is finalized, and then never corrected.

It just seems illogical to follow such 'third-party' information ahead of what the album actually gives us.

When we have products up though, and when it comes to choosing how to display the name for a given product, then I think we can use the official site and such to determine what would be most fitting.
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  #75  
Old Mar 2, 2010, 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by seanne View Post
The problem with this is that official sites and vendors often use descriptive titles that aren't necessarily part of the album title. For example:

TVアニメ『キミキス pure rouge』 <- Platform 『Game Name』

キャラクターソングアルバム <- Album Title, without Game Name

Basically, official sites and vendors don't always provide correct information, as given on the album packaging. Both titles, tracklists and other information can be wrong since they don't necessarily have the same quality control (and anal-ness) we do - additionally information can be put up on sites before the album is finalized, and then never corrected.

It just seems illogical to follow such 'third-party' information ahead of what the album actually gives us.

When we have products up though, and when it comes to choosing how to display the name for a given product, then I think we can use the official site and such to determine what would be most fitting.
And album covers aren't always correct because they're often presented in a stylistic manner which doesn't reflect the actual title. There's always a margin of error no matter what source you use. I'm also not sure how you can determine which is correct or not, do you have some source I'm not aware of?
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  #76  
Old Mar 2, 2010, 04:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ira View Post
And album covers aren't always correct because they're often presented in a stylistic manner which doesn't reflect the actual title. There's always a margin of error no matter what source you use. I'm also not sure how you can determine which is correct or not, do you have some source I'm not aware of?
Well the album is correct since that's what the entry is supposed to be reflecting. Similarly a tracklist typo is still correct if that's what the album gives us. Typically either the obi or spines will give the most correct album title.

The order of priority we've been using:

1. obi/spines
2. other parts of the album packaging <- if no obi/spine info is available
3. official sites, vendors, release lists, fan sites (etc) listing the album <- if no scan/physical album info is available. can often be considered "better than nothing" or "for the time being" since it may be; based on non-final info, merely of a descriptive nature (we see this on release lists a lot), not otherwise a reflection of 1 or 2.
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  #77  
Old Mar 2, 2010, 04:24 AM
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I'd rather think this is Front vs Obi/Spine/etc. rather than Front vs websites. TV anime "Kimikiss pure rouge" is printed on the Obi, and possibly somewhere else (like the spine) and I assume the official site and vendors were based on such.



Quote:
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And yes, basing stuff of stylistic printing is always tricky, which is why I prefer trying to get the product name online to begin with. If only more publishers would make that information available.
And "Amagami" on the official site also can just be one stylistic form Personally, if "amagami" is consistently printed on the albums, I'd go with it, but it's of course my preference.
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  #78  
Old Mar 2, 2010, 04:49 AM
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I chose KimiKiss Character Song Album as an example, because all of those sites miss the "*" that is clearly on the cover, and which we've included on our title.
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  #79  
Old Mar 2, 2010, 04:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanne View Post
Well the album is correct since that's what the entry is supposed to be reflecting. Similarly a tracklist typo is still correct if that's what the album gives us. Typically either the obi or spines will give the most correct album title.
...
3. official sites, vendors, release lists, fan sites (etc) listing the album <- if no scan/physical album info is available. can often be considered "better than nothing" or "for the time being" since it may be; based on non-final info, merely of a descriptive nature (we see this on release lists a lot), not otherwise a reflection of 1 or 2.
Let me repeat what you've been ignoring: package design can be just as flawed. You even made a point of this yourself with track lists, if the error is corrected by the publisher (that is to say they officially make note of it) but not fixed on the packaging then the packaging is in error. I repeat, packaging is not flawless and it should not be treated as such. This is why I'm trying to advocate against total reliance on what is printed on the album. But, in this case it's not even an issue with that, it's just not printed on the front.
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  #80  
Old Mar 2, 2010, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ira View Post
Hmm, for kimikiss everywhere I've seen it written on the official site has it written in all lower case (and there's one CD with an english title that backs this up.) However, the (official) english manga has it written as "KimiKiss". I'd stick with "kimikiss" myself. Amagami seems to be written in proper case on the official website, so "Amagami" seems like a safe bet.
Something to watch out for, neither title seems to be explicitly transcribed on their respective websites (i.e. written in ASCII) -- so what you're looking at are also potentially stylized images. (I guess Cedille already mentioned that)

What if we use this guideline: Use the title verbatim if it's printed in clearly discernable Latin font (anywhere on the package, priority going to the cover and the obi); if it's a stylized font or logo graphic, use what's closest to an "official" transcription. Even if the album version of the product title differs from the official transcription, we'll still have the product field to compensate for it.

My earlier stance might have given a bit too much emphasis to the product trademark -- after some consideration, I'm now of the view that the album title field is for the album rather than the associated product, so if the album publisher chooses to print the title differently, we'll just go along with it (within the bounds of common sense).

(Just to clarify; the above pertains to albums that don't already have official transcriptions provided by the album publisher)
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  #81  
Old Mar 2, 2010, 06:36 AM
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Something to watch out for, neither title seems to be explicitly transcribed on their respective websites (i.e. written in ASCII) -- so what you're looking at are also potentially stylized images. (I guess Cedille already mentioned that)
I'm aware. For KimiKiss, the only case I've seen it transcribed (in ASCII!) is one album on this page and this isn't really conclusive. There doesn't seem to be an official romanization given by the original publisher.
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  #82  
Old Mar 2, 2010, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
Generally I'd say yes, though I think that romanization qualifies as the Display title according to the hierarchy rule candidate, since it's the only English text on the album. I don't know if this is acceptable or if we need to rework it.
Wait, that's right. I was thinking Display #1 states to have it replaced with the official English game titles.
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  #83  
Old Mar 2, 2010, 04:19 PM
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I think that romanization should probably prevail in most cases for Display#1, even on higher hierarchy than the english text found on CDs.

This is because romanized is 100% accurate (provided you romanize it correctly), while english text found on CDs is often full of typos or even less than accurate when it comes to translations.

Case in point: KICA 7760.

Display#1 should be the actual third line ("Gekka no Yasoukyoku")

We have english text here http://vgmdb.net/db/covers.php?do=view&cover=33097
as Gekka no Nocturne, but I'd prefer to go with the romanization, since english clashes with other sources (ie from the game: "Nocturne in the Moonlight").
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  #84  
Old Mar 2, 2010, 04:31 PM
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These Dracula albums are all starting to run together, but where does that "Nocturne in the Moonlight" come from? It doesn't seem to be on the scans.
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  #85  
Old Mar 2, 2010, 04:40 PM
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It was from the text in the game's intro (japanese one iirc). If you greenlight me, I'm submitting changes ^^
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Old Mar 2, 2010, 04:46 PM
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It seems like they missed an "X" when they wrote the Romanized title on the spine.

What does everyone think about these kinds of official titles that come from the Japanese game title? I hadn't considered that as a possible source for anything.
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Old Mar 2, 2010, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
What does everyone think about these kinds of official titles that come from the Japanese game title? I hadn't considered that as a possible source for anything.
I think that if they are interesting and / or well known, they may be a good fourth line (Alternative). Useful for search purpose.
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  #88  
Old Mar 3, 2010, 09:47 AM
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I've been too indecisive and meandering with my discussion thus far, so I'm going to tone it down to the essentials.

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Originally Posted by The Gambler View Post
I think that romanization should probably prevail in most cases for Display#1, even on higher hierarchy than the english text found on CDs.
We already have a dedicated Romanized title field, as well as an option to show Romanized titles in place of the Display titles. It begs the true question: What is our ultimate goal with the Display title? Of course, it can't be complete accuracy, because the Original title is the most accurate.

If the Display title is attempting to make an easy read for English speakers, then it shouldn't be a Romanized title unless there are no other reasonable English alternatives. Most English speakers can't make sense of many Romanizations. Sure, they can read it (and maybe even even pronounce it), but it's gibberish to them. How will any typical English-speaking game music fan know that "Gacha Mecha Stadium Saru Battle" is actually "Ape Escape: Pumped & Primed"? Likewise, I've never heard of "Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow" referred to as "Akumajo Dracula Sougetsu no Juujika". It's just inconvenient.

And again, I am all for maintaining official information. But when we already have the Original and Romanized fields used up, what's left to use the Display for?
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Old Mar 3, 2010, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Kaleb.G View Post
I've been too indecisive and meandering with my discussion thus far, so I'm going to tone it down to the essentials.

We already have a dedicated Romanized title field, as well as an option to show Romanized titles in place of the Display titles. It begs the true question: What is our ultimate goal with the Display title? Of course, it can't be complete accuracy, because the Original title is the most accurate.

If the Display title is attempting to make an easy read for English speakers, then it shouldn't be a Romanized title unless there are no other reasonable English alternatives. Most English speakers can't make sense of many Romanizations. Sure, they can read it (and maybe even even pronounce it), but it's gibberish to them. How will any typical English-speaking game music fan know that "Gacha Mecha Stadium Saru Battle" is actually "Ape Escape: Pumped & Primed"? Likewise, I've never heard of "Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow" referred to as "Akumajo Dracula Sougetsu no Juujika". It's just inconvenient.

And again, I am all for maintaining official information. But when we already have the Original and Romanized fields used up, what's left to use the Display for?
And yet, even if all you're saying regarding the display field sounds reasonable, the practice of the database is often in reverse.

I'll try to reply each relevant point to clarify my stance (to myself, then to others).

"Of course, it can't be complete accuracy, because the Original title is the most accurate."

Yes, Original is the most accurate, but it requires the use of foreign (non-latin) alphabet. Therefore I think a good goal for the Display line would be "the most accuracy possible" without recurring to foreign alphabets.

"If the Display title is attempting to make an easy read for English speakers, then it shouldn't be a Romanized title unless there are no other reasonable English alternatives."

"If" - but this criteria loses some of its importance if, as Squirrel says, the search function does search in all the four title lines. In other words, if I am able to search "Castlevania" and obtain the "Akumajo Dracula" albums, it's not so vital that the Display line does look for English alternatives to romanization. If I search Ape Escape and I obtain Sarugecchu CDs, I most likely will have a look at them, learning something in the process.

"Most English speakers can't make sense of many Romanizations. Sure, they can read it (and maybe even even pronounce it), but it's gibberish to them."

I appreciate the idea to keep the site entry-level, although, let's not lose perspective. The average reader here has already a quite advanced knowledge of one or more of these fields: videogames, videogame music, videogame series, localization issues, and such. We are talking of a community geared towards obtaining soundtracks which, for the most part, are on the grey import market. I'm pretty sure the average Joe here has heard of Sarugetchu, and if he hasn't, it won't take long for him to go around that.
Am I advocating then to stay "obscure" and "niche" just for the sake of it? No, not at all - it's good to provide easy read and as many possible translations and options. But since it's a database focused on gathering information, it would be better to stay a little more strict to the album's information.

Likewise, I've never heard of "Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow" referred to as "Akumajo Dracula Sougetsu no Juujika".

It's not so uncommon, actually - at least in CV forums. But continuing on the example, I've never heard of someone calling the "Akumajo Dracula Best" albums "Castlevania Best". The majority of these albums has never reached officially west (think on the so many Castlevania related cds that are not specifically soundtracks) - it's a bit of a stretch to apply to these Japanese albums the official English name of the games they are based on.

I am all for maintaining official information. But when we already have the Original and Romanized fields used up, what's left to use the Display for?

In my view, Display should be basically Romanized. Either that, or based on English text already present on the album. I can reverse your question and say: when we have a fourth line for "alternative" titles (english translations, games' titles etc.) why do we have to mess around with the first Display line?

That's my two cent so far, although I still have some doubts myself. ^^;

Last edited by The Gambler; Mar 3, 2010 at 05:22 PM.
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Old Mar 4, 2010, 06:35 AM
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Secret Squirrel Secret Squirrel is offline
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We are spinning in circles here, which means a likely outcome will be sticking with discretion on an album-by-album basis. We might be able to adopt pieces of this, as the disagreement is really only on the Display title.

It's useful that we are looking at specific cases to test this problem out. In this case, we have these candidates for Display title:
  1. Romanized title from the Spine
  2. An English title that appeared on the first screen of the Japanese game, but was not used when localized.
  3. Localized English language game title.

Title 2 was used in our community, presumably before title 3 was known. The guideline I proposed above would rank title 1 as the Display title by virtue of it being the only English title on the album. The modified guideline I mentioned to Ira would give the submitter discretion to choose the best title from multiple sources, and would also probably end up with title 1, unless the Japanese game loading screen is added to the list of sources that can be used to build the best possible title.
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