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  #91  
Old Mar 3, 2010, 03:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigablah View Post
If a soundtrack is enclosed only with the limited edition of a product, it should be First Press Bonus. If it's enclosed with all editions, and continues to be bundled throughout the product's normal print run, it's a generic enclosure.
I am not really agree about "limited/collector edition" = first print..
It's not clear enough, To me first print means it came only with a first print run of the media (generally containing different package or bonus), and then was later stopped to use another print run of the same content without the extras.
The most important thing is "First", at least for me it means it came before the normal release.

It's not true for Limited/Collector's edition.. that comes either Later the normal version or at the same time, and the buyer is able to buy any of the 2 versions.

If you search for "collector", all the CDs are currently classified as normal Enclosure (so if you'r right we'll have to change all of them)

So before continuing talking about a need of a clearer classification, i need to know if i am right here and what do you think about it?
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  #92  
Old Mar 3, 2010, 05:20 AM
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I thought the First Press bonus items were just shipped with the first press copies of the game, but weren't actually in the game box. (Same with the retailer bonus & the Pre-Order bounus)

Conversely, I thought that an enclosure in a LE set was just a normal enclosure, because it came with all copies of the LE game in question, which is separate product in its own right, unlike the first pressing of a game which may not even be different than subsequent pressings.
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  #93  
Old Mar 3, 2010, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrkul
To me first print means it came only with a first print run of the media (generally containing different package or bonus), and then was later stopped to use another print run of the same content without the extras.
That's correct. I used limited edition and first pressing interchangeably, but you're right that there are Collector's editions that can be released anytime after the first pressing.

I think redefining "first press bonus" as "limited edition bonus" would be a simpler solution. (Alternatively we can throw in more edition types). Note that "enclosure" is a catch-all type, so using it for releases that are clearly limited is something I'd like to avoid.
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  #94  
Old Mar 3, 2010, 08:24 AM
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Yeah well maybe we chould merge both.. i don't know.

I think we should clearly define what is "Limited"..
Limited about what? In term of accessibily (privilege clubs, suscribers..)
Limited in number? (ex: 50 / 1000 copies worldwide..?)
Limited just because it's "special"? (collector's edition, premium edition..)

Matter is a first print material is obligatory a "Limited" item, as the production of this specific version will be stopped to make another one.
But then there's a big difference, first print means there is obligatory another print (without the same extras/content).

Pre-orders bonus are also "limited" (in time) when you think about it.. since when the game/album is finally out, you can't buy anymore the pre-order version.


Maybe we should rename that "Limited" to "Extra Content".. (categorizing commercial releases with extra content -ex: bonus dvd-), and leave the rest untouched.
Pre-orders bonus are clear enough
First-press bonus clearly state bonus that came only with that print run and was stopped at some time replaced by another version
Enclosure could fit to the rest (special edition of games, magazines..)

edit: well while i think about it.. maybe the "First Press Bonus" is the problem.. Could you give me examples of "First Press Bonus" item that were not "enclosed" with something?
(a game, a book...).. To add more to the confusion (and the funny debate) everything could be everything really. First press bonus are limited & generally enclosed!


edit2: i am sorry to make such debates.. but since we'r in the whole "restructuring guidelines" process, this is the right time to make everything clear for all users..
I am not asking these questions for me really, but i am thinking about a newcommer that want to submit an album and could be lost in the large choice of options.

Last edited by Myrkul; Mar 3, 2010 at 08:37 AM.
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  #95  
Old Apr 21, 2010, 08:33 AM
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Is there any guidance on how the release data of an promo album which only drawing winners can get should be? The earliest day one can apply for that drawing? The earliest day one could receive that album? Or none? (I'm leaning toward the third choice).

This database has at least two albums I can think of, and I think now is the time to discuss this issue...

http://vgmdb.net/album/10776
http://vgmdb.net/album/18830
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  #96  
Old Apr 21, 2010, 10:52 AM
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My guess on this would be the day the winners were announced, if we can find out what day that was.
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  #97  
Old Apr 21, 2010, 11:00 AM
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No date at all would be very unhelpful. Some kind of date should definitively be there. I'd say the day when the result of the drawing is published someplace should be used since that more useful than the day one could apply and is easier to confirm than someone receiving it the earliest.
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  #98  
Old Apr 21, 2010, 11:07 AM
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What about the day the album was sent to the winners? (if we can find such info, and put the other dates in the notes). Using the day the winners were announced is like using the day any album is announced as the release date, I think.
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  #99  
Old Apr 21, 2010, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
I thought the First Press bonus items were just shipped with the first press copies of the game, but weren't actually in the game box. (Same with the retailer bonus & the Pre-Order bounus)

Conversely, I thought that an enclosure in a LE set was just a normal enclosure, because it came with all copies of the LE game in question, which is separate product in its own right, unlike the first pressing of a game which may not even be different than subsequent pressings.
Just chiming in that an example of a first press bonus that's IN the packaging is some of KOEI's Nippon Ichi releases iirc and probably Espgaluda II standard edition too? Don't know if it's in the packaging but I'm pretty sure.
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  #100  
Old Apr 21, 2010, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
My guess on this would be the day the winners were announced, if we can find out what day that was.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Datschge View Post
No date at all would be very unhelpful. Some kind of date should definitively be there. I'd say the day when the result of the drawing is published someplace should be used since that more useful than the day one could apply and is easier to confirm than someone receiving it the earliest.
More often than not, winners will receive the prize without prior announcement... I added what I thought was the earliest receiving date to that Persona promo album. I'm not sure about the current release date of FF Finest Box (which was initially a prize drawing item), by the way. It's Mar 28, 2007, but She apparently received this album on Mar 24, 2007.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedille
It might not be appropriate to treat this album the same as drawing prize albums, because there is no drawing; every user who purchases another album and applies for this campaign can get album. I think it's closer to Club Nintendo reward items, but is there a consensus on how the release date of those album shall be?

http://vgmdb.net/album/5411 (the common receiving date in Japan seems to be Jan 24 or 25, 2008. Was Jan 31, 2008 the US equivalent date?)
http://vgmdb.net/album/10379 (Oct 14, 2008 seems to be the common receiving date)
http://vgmdb.net/album/10970 (Jan 12, 2009 seems to be the deadline of the the initial period when we could get this album by fewer coins)
http://vgmdb.net/album/14666 (I don't remember why I added Sep 2009, but this seems to be the common receiving date)

Also, we may need to have another distribution type for these albums, since "Promo/Gift" is supposed to use for "promotional items with extremely limited printings, prizes awarded to contest winners and so on.", but do Club Nintendo items fit this description, or fall under the catch-all "Enclosure"?
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  #101  
Old Jun 13, 2010, 11:57 AM
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Just a note that discussion on the release date for contest prize albums is occuring here.

Also, I finally converted the old 'N/A' catalog numbers to empty fields, so the new way to find albums without catalog numbers is to use '!' in the catalog number search field on the advanced search.
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  #102  
Old Jun 21, 2010, 05:20 AM
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I guess most albums that was printed before Japan's consumption tax was raised to 5 percent in 1997 are already out-of-print, but I've come across a couple exceptions (like this), and in such a case the printed post-tax price and the actual price don't match (and technically speaking, I think the prices of all the albums released before 1997 have to be basically 1.019 percent higher than how the scans of the earlier printing states, because that's the price we'd be charged if they should be still printed today).

As the consumption tax in Japan will be raised two or three years later, we will have to add the 'new' tax-included prices to every old Japanese release entry that will be still available at this point. This is just a potential future threat which could be solved by a small script... but I wonder it would be better to start to add a before-tax price and let the system automatically calculate the tax-included price.
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  #103  
Old Jun 21, 2010, 05:33 AM
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Yeah, this might be a reason to save the pre-tax price instead of tax-included, but man that's a lot of albums to fix.
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  #104  
Old Jun 21, 2010, 04:27 PM
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We will have even more entries to fix, given how much albums will have been added to this database by the time when the tax is finally increased (although I expect we'll also have assembled a larger team and active editors by then), but yeah, I don't think this is something we should take action so soon. Just wanted it to be on the issue list.

Meanwhile, perhaps we need to be careful about our submissions, now that we start covering anime, and we're routinely adding albums released before 1991 1989! (the year when Japan started the consumption tax) or 1997 (the year when it was raised to 5 percent). If the last two digits of the printed price of 70s to 80s release are zeros, for example, the scan might be from an earlier printing and it might be the pre-tax price, so we have to multiply it by 1.05...

Last edited by Cedille; Jun 22, 2010 at 06:22 AM. Reason: This member had a incredibly bad memory and didn't remember since when he couldn't buy a canned drink with one coin.
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  #105  
Old Jun 22, 2010, 04:00 AM
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I talked some to Blah about this, and the only thing that makes sense is to switch over from using post-tax to pre-tax price. We can additionally display the post-tax price if we want.

It's going to take a lot of editing to fix this, but we might be able to come up with some clever ways to automate some parts of it. To start, I've added Price Value to the advanced search so that it can be queried.
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  #106  
Old Jun 22, 2010, 04:23 AM
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Is this official? And all the upcoming entries should be pre-taxed now?
I think it's a good decision.
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  #107  
Old Jun 22, 2010, 05:05 AM
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Is the pre-tax price actually fixed? Ie.- I think publishers will change it upwards to round the taxed price whenever taxes are changed.

Also I think this is better handled mainly with SQL queries. That's a lot of albums to fix manually.
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  #108  
Old Jun 22, 2010, 05:48 AM
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Are you sure there was no tax before 1991?

This album from 1990 has two prices, one without tax:

http://vgmdb.net/db/covers.php?do=view&cover=64626

Note that the tax-inclusive price is the one displayed prominently on the spine.

The price listed for this album doesn't agree with the one on the back (of course, our price could be an error.)
http://vgmdb.net/album/3089
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  #109  
Old Jun 22, 2010, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
Are you sure there was no tax before 1991?

This album from 1990 has two prices, one without tax:

http://vgmdb.net/db/covers.php?do=view&cover=64626
Oops, it started on April, 1st 1989.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
It's going to take a lot of editing to fix this, but we might be able to come up with some clever ways to automate some parts of it. To start, I've added Price Value to the advanced search so that it can be queried.
I think albums released after 1997 could be easily changed by a script, but those released between 1989 and 1997, or before 1989 might need to be fixed by hand work... I feel more comfortable when the post-tax price is also displayed, as I want to know the actual price anyway, and our law actually requires it should be displayed for consumers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dag View Post
Is the pre-tax price actually fixed? Ie.- I think publishers will change it upwards to round the taxed price whenever taxes are changed.
Interesting. Could you elaborate on it more?

As far as I checked a couple popular albums released around 1996, the pre-tax prices apparently remained the same, but there might have been a case the price didn't change.

Super Mario RPG Original Sound Version -> 2854 yen (2718x1.05)
Super Mario 64 Original Sound Track -> 2548 yen (2427x1.05)
Chrono Trigger Original Sound Version -> 3873 yen (3689x1.05)
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  #110  
Old Jun 22, 2010, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedille View Post
Interesting. Could you elaborate on it more?
It's just a guess, I haven't looked into it. I was thinking the base price may not change inmediately, but over time and reprints it could be adjusted silently, because a taxed 3873 looks less 'nice and round' than 3900.
Or maybe japanese publishers are honest and won't change it like that.
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  #111  
Old Jun 22, 2010, 04:16 PM
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For doujins, does the price also include this tax?
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  #112  
Old Jun 22, 2010, 05:10 PM
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I think the retail price should include the tax because a professional retailer is obligated by a law to display the post-tax price. On the other hand, business owners with annual sales of less than 10 million yen don't have consumer tax obligation, so when doujin artists just sell CDs at events, they don't get taxed so the event prices normally don't include the tax.

Do we usually add the event price, right?
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  #113  
Old Jun 22, 2010, 05:40 PM
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Yeah, we usually do.

I'm just trying to figure out if there are some albums for which we will need to calculate the pre-tax price, because it's never reported anywhere.
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  #114  
Old Jun 22, 2010, 06:17 PM
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I've also been concerned about it. In most "official" soundtracks both prices are printed, but of my collections, some recent Cave soundtrack have no price information on the covers, and I do remember they only displayed the post-tax prices on their websites (because of that, the other day I myself wondered if the tax was included and had to check my receipt). In such a case, we have to calculate the pre-tax price by ourselves...

Actually, I'm less worried about how much work it requires than how it affects site users. Even if we manually fix the prices, we could take advantage of a script such as one Blah wrote for the new album submission form. Or now that we have many staffs, we can divide albums into a few publishers (or catalog stems) per staff. More importantly, if we're going to exclude the tax, our prices will become approximately 4.8 (=1.00/1.05) percent cheaper than everywhere else since the post-tax price is the standard in Japan, and it might be confusing. As most albums released before the tax was raised to 5 percent in Japan aren't available, much less those released before 1989, we could defer it until we finally implement ways to add multiple prices so that both pre- and post-tax prices can be displayed. We still have a few years before the Japanese government finally raises its tax once again, at the soonest. I'll be willing to follow the decision of admins and other staffs, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dag View Post
It's just a guess, I haven't looked into it. I was thinking the base price may not change inmediately, but over time and reprints it could be adjusted silently, because a taxed 3873 looks less 'nice and round' than 3900.
Oh I see what you mean. I thought of a case where a reprint had a new (cheaper) price setting that would become round numbers under the increased tax, but not a case where publishers 'revised' prices in a later printing, considering that VGM soundtracks weren't long run goods, but I agree it's possible. Maybe we should take a close look at the aftermath of 1997's tax increase.

Last edited by Cedille; Jun 23, 2010 at 12:11 AM.
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  #115  
Old Jun 23, 2010, 05:37 AM
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I think it's a bit much to change our whole price system just because a few (one-two years worth) of releases may be affected by a raise in tax. If the point is to give people an 'absolutely accurate' price, then I think that's pretty much not possible anyway as different retailers will naturally change the price over time - I think everyone understands that even if the retail price is 2,000 yen today, a year from now that might not be the price you'll be charged by a given retailer. We can look at this recent example for instance, it's price is already reduced pretty much everywhere.

And what would we do with albums for which a specific pre-tax price is not given? Older Japanese releases, and pretty much every single non-japanese release.

This tax change is something I think would be better handled via an announcement. That way people would actually know what's up, and would know to expect to pay a bit more for Japanese releases from that time on.
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  #116  
Old Jun 24, 2010, 01:04 PM
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So yeah, I'm much less sure about what to do about this. The tax-included price is so prominently displayed on all of these albums, and I think in some cases it's the only one we have available. Maybe we should just stick with it. Maybe we could make them clickable, so you can get a more complete breakdown that includes the pre-tax price, and the tax-included price as it changes over time.
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  #117  
Old Jun 24, 2010, 06:50 PM
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I suppose the ideal setup is to record the pre-tax price but display the post-tax price (or even better, both prices like CDJapan does).
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  #118  
Old Jul 3, 2010, 06:25 AM
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I guess I'm punting on this problem for now, but ultimately it seems like we'll need to record both prices, coupled with a lot of work coming up with some queries that fix all of the current entries.
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  #119  
Old Jul 8, 2010, 02:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigablah View Post
A few more details about the upgraded system:
[list][*]Anything the user inputs is now checked against the database entry. If the value has changed, only that field is updated. This means that simultaneous edits by different users on different fields will not cause the other to be overwritten.
Does this still work? I've sometimes seen my edits overwritten by another user since last month. I'm also not sure if the thread and album titles are still synchronized.
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  #120  
Old Jul 8, 2010, 11:14 AM
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Just chiming in that an example of a first press bonus that's IN the packaging is some of KOEI's Nippon Ichi releases iirc and probably Espgaluda II standard edition too? Don't know if it's in the packaging but I'm pretty sure.
When I bough "Tales of Vs." CDJapan was stating that it would come with a "first press bonus" (when I received it there was still 2 or 3 items left).

Since I received the product without extras outside the box (like "the final fantasy campaign") I assume the extra content is inside the cd box.

The only problem is that I didn't opened the box (it's still factory sealed) and even if I had, I don't have the other "Tales of Vs." (2nd press) to compare. But since CDjapan never failed to me before I'm pretty sure the CDbox has the extra content inside it... wich means there are many "first press bonus" that come inside the sealed cd box.

There are some other "first press bonus" that come outside the box too. And there are also other bonus that doesn't have anything to do with the CDbox but the sellers (eg CDJapan) send those "extra bonus" by their own will.

Last edited by newsblade; Jul 8, 2010 at 11:17 AM.
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