SSCX-10017: Soukaigi Original Soundtrack

[Revoc]

There was a lot of errors in the performers credits in this entry:
伊藤浩紀 = Hiroki Ito, not Hironori Ito
星野正 = Tadashi Hoshino, not Sei Hoshino
野島慶介 = Keisuke Nojima (confirmed here), not Koyasu Nojima

Also, I couldn't confirm Masao Maeuma and Sanae Hattori as the readings of 崩馬将夫 and 羽鳥早苗, respectively. I've changed to the kanji names.

[Xenofan 29A]

The scan for booklet 4 is upside down. Why is that?

[Myrkul]

I fixed that, but i wonder if the booklet is complete.. and if the pages are in the good order.

[Zanasea]

Originally Posted by Revoc

Also, I couldn't confirm Masao Maeuma and Sanae Hattori as the readings of 崩馬将夫 and 羽鳥早苗, respectively. I've changed to the kanji names.

I was wondering if 崩馬将夫 wasn't actually a misspelling of 崩場将夫 (Masao Kuzuba), who is a composer and keyboardist.

[Corsico]

If anyone can point me in the proper direction to purchase this OST again, I'd greatly appreciate it. I bought it once...but all I seem to have is the case now. I must've lost it in a flood or a move. I NEED to have it again though. Thanks in advance.

Corsico.

[Hellacia]

I've probably never heard a bigger piece of shit than this soundtrack. Wow. This entire soundtrack sounds like it was composed by somebody trying to write "real" music instead of "game" music. It sounds like Hiroki Kikuta spent the entire CD saying "Look at what a musician I am!" Basically every cliché in music is achieved, from the wrenching violin elegy to the obligatory organ solo to the grandiose fanfare of trumpets to the extremely loud epic rock finale, and let's not forget the ethnic chanting to make this batch of junk really "eclectic". And not a thing about any of it is memorable because there's very little genuine melody to it; rather, the instruments are just played in flurry to sound dynamic, powerful, passionate. There's zero inspiration behind any of it.

Halfway through the CD, I literally wondered why I was bothering anymore. I'm a huge VGM enthusiast, and I make it a point to listen to every new soundtrack three times, to make sure I've really taken the songs in. Sometimes I'll realize something about a song on the third pass that I wasn't able to pick up from the previous listens. In fact, to be fair, even three passes probably isn't enough. But the so-called music on this CD is so fake, I can't force myself through a second playthrough of it, let alone a third. If I'm going to give something multiple chances, it needs to have the potential to grow on me, to show me a side of it I didn't see before. This overcomposed garbage has no potential at all, and only has the single side to it that its first play shows. It's nothing but material, posing as music, attempting to achieve something "greater" than the medium for which is was written but failing to do so because of the effort required for Kikuta to emulate that sound.

Am I saying that game music has to sound like "game music"? Absolutely not. Two of my favorite soundtracks to this day are Soul Calibur II and Soul Calibur III. You can't get a more real orchestral sound than from the Soul Calibur series; some of it could pass as film score music. They're soundtracks with real content, moving melodies, and inspiration backing the almost over-the-top nature of some of the compositions; it comes off as fun. Soul Calibur achieves this sound through its natural creation. What Soukaigi does is attempts to achieve this sound solely for the sake of achieving it, as if it is a "superior" sound somehow. Yet through all of its shitty vocals, long interludes of the same triplet notes over and over again, and disgustingly awful snare hits (seriously, was it meant to sound like it was hit in a fucking cave?), the soundtrack has absolutely no real content whatsoever, and just ends up with a sound that takes itself far too seriously. There's nothing enjoyable about listening to any of the songs - this soundtrack is the SERIOUS BUSINESS of VGM.

Probably late in the game to say, but don't give a single dump on this CD your time, you'll never get that time back.

[Phonograph]

I guess it's not the opinion of the 40 persons who rated this album making it 4.57 (barely dropped because of your 1 star rating)
you know, it's like those people who think the problem is others and not themselves (don't take it personally, I just make a generality)

[Datschge]

True highbrow game music review. :lol

[Xenofan 29A]

Hellacia:

What do you think of the following three genres?

Bebop

Progressive Rock

Jazz Fusion

I like all three, to varying degrees (prog's not really my thing, save for a few songs), and I can appreciate all of them. People have said of them also that "the instruments are just played in flurry to sound dynamic, powerful, passionate" with "zero inspiration behind any of it", that there is no "real melody" in them, and I disagree. Artistry transcends style and genre. There are melodies here to my ears, and I'm sure to those of others here.

I'm not saying that this soundtrack is perfect. I think most of the ratings here at VGMdb are inflated by people who seem to think anything they like deserves 5 stars, and you're right that the recording and mixing quality is not that great, even by VGM standards, but I think it's a pretty good soundtrack overall, if not up to Kikuta's standards set in Seiken Densetsu 2 and 3.

[Blitz Lunar]

Personally I like this album a lot (4.5 stars.) I won't engage too much with your review since it's just your opinion ultimately and that's cool, but this illustrates why I generally avoid music reviews. They focus way too much on the presumed intent, semantics, cultural position, and how the audience is supposed to receive it, by a person with no real authority/expertise essentially giving nothing more than their mouthpiece, no more important than anyone else's. They also tend not to look enough at the construction of the music (writing music myself, the engineering side naturally appeals to me far more.)

But anyway, the most important thing is music can't be pretentious, only people can, and in my experience, it's reviewers and fans that exhibit that characteristic way more than the musicians themselves. Most musicians writing or playing crazy over the top music (like this album) are probably looking at it more from a musicological/construction perspective, like polishing stones. A parallel I'd draw is, you don't look at a cathedral and think "fuck that, it's too big and overly constructed and painfully crafted; I'll stick to my mud huts", in general you think "holy goddamn fuck that took a lot of graft, skill and imagination to create." And I mean, it isn't like you can compare the two anyway, they are different, music isn't a competition, so it's just taste at the end of the day, simplicity can be (and for me, often is) just as elegant and enjoyable, which is what matters ultimately!

[Hellacia]

Originally Posted by Phonograph

I guess it's not the opinion of the 40 persons who rated this album making it 4.57 (barely dropped because of your 1 star rating)

Yeah, and I think the soundtrack gets a lot of votes for other bullshit reasons. I get the feeling that when people discover things from games that are never released here that are generally unknown or "underground", unheard of, etc, they feel like they've really found something cool and so they think it has to be great, especially when there's a big-name artist behind it. Also, the real instruments thing plays heavily to VGM people, who grew up listening to synth for most of their childhood; get real instruments in there and oh my god, it's "real" music, I'm listening to something "really good" now. Of course I enjoy the freshness of real instruments in my VGM, and I'm a bit of a sucker for it, but I can still distinguish poser shit from the real stuff.

But whatever. Not saying people's opinions aren't valid or that anyone who likes this soundtrack is wrong, but I really think people are taken and biased by stuff like that.

Originally Posted by Xenofan 29A

What do you think of the following three genres?

First of all, I'll say that I can enjoy stuff from any genre, but obviously I gravitate to some genres more than others. Bebop: it's okay. It's not a genre of my choice but it can have its gems. Progressive rock: mostly love it, actually. Jazz fusion: also can be really great. Bebop is my least favorite of the three.

Originally Posted by Blitz Lunar

this illustrates why I generally avoid music reviews

Oh, I've probably only read like... 3 or 4 VGM reviews ever? And it's only every once in a while that I'll post my own opinion about stuff. I only did so this time because I disliked this soundtrack so much that it literally put me in a bad mood and the dismembering of it on a public message board was cathartic for me

[Xenofan 29A]

Originally Posted by Hellacia

First of all, I'll say that I can enjoy stuff from any genre, but obviously I gravitate to some genres more than others. Bebop: it's okay. It's not a genre of my choice but it can have its gems. Progressive rock: mostly love it, actually. Jazz fusion: also can be really great. Bebop is my least favorite of the three.

I also enjoy just about any genre of music. The order you posted is the opposite of mine, though. I prefer Bebop, then Jazz Fusion, then Prog. What does this prove? Nothing. People have different tastes.

I understand wanting to eviscerate something you hate on a forum, but you realize that it's somewhat offensive to assume that people like something for non-musical reasons, right? Music is a very subjective thing, and people find value in different ways. None of them are wrong.

[Psychonotes]

Originally Posted by Hellacia

I've probably never heard a bigger piece of shit than this soundtrack. Wow. This entire soundtrack sounds like it was composed by somebody trying to write "real" music instead of "game" music. It sounds like Hiroki Kikuta spent the entire CD saying "Look at what a musician I am!"

I'm unclear how music that actually is performed by real instruments could sound like it's "trying" to be real, nor what "real" even means in this context. What aesthetic characteristics distinguish, say, a violin solo that sounds like a violin solo from one that's trying really hard to be a violin solo?

I have an even harder time understanding how, absent any extra-musical sources, you could somehow infer a composer's intent to rebuke another genre and celebrate his own musicianship simply from his choice of style.

Certainly, you can dislike the style of the soundtrack, and it seems like that's what you're trying to say. The criticisms above make no sense, however.

Obviously, a lot of people have a different response to this music. For my part, 14 years and hundreds of soundtracks after first hearing it, Soukaigi continues to be a top 10 favorite for me, and I think it and SD2 represent Kikuta's best work.

[Hellacia]

Originally Posted by Xenofan 29A

I understand wanting to eviscerate something you hate on a forum, but you realize that it's somewhat offensive to assume that people like something for non-musical reasons, right? Music is a very subjective thing, and people find value in different ways. None of them are wrong.

Originally Posted by Hellacia

Not saying people's opinions aren't valid or that anyone who likes this soundtrack is wrong

And I'm not naming names, but I find it a little hard to believe that everybody likes music for the purist of reasons. I know I don't, and I don't have any trouble admitting it.

Originally Posted by Psychonotes

I have an even harder time understanding how, absent any extra-musical sources, you could somehow infer a composer's intent

Originally Posted by Hellacia

This entire soundtrack sounds like it was composed by somebody trying to write "real" music instead of "game" music. It sounds like Hiroki Kikuta spent the entire CD saying "Look at what a musician I am!"

[Phonograph]

I played the game and the music perfectly fits the ambience of the game (but I didn't finish it because the game is weird and quite ugly)

[Jormungand]

Hellacia, at first I was wondering whether or not to take this review seriously. Then I saw that you rated SaGa Frontier 5 stars, and realized that, no, I cannot take it seriously.

It actually sounds more like trolling than a music review, to be honest. All of the reasons you used for disliking Soukaigi are entirely off the mark of why fans love it. The content is not only of a much finer substance than most game music albums out there, it's also totally genuine and unchained to the apparent cliches you seemed convinced are somehow pervasive (cliches that, hilariously, are rampant in Kenji Ito's miserable catalogue).

I'm really sorry that you don't know great art when you hear it (it's not for everyone), but you're not going to convince anyone to take you seriously with the way you've presented yourself. You sound bitter--angry, even--and I don't have a clue why. I'm sure no one else does, either, which means you've really communicated nothing besides barely coherent and entirely self-indulgent vehemence.

It's nothing but material, posing as music, attempting to achieve something "greater" than the medium for which is was written but failing to do so because of the effort required for Kikuta to emulate that sound.

You've got it backward: Kikuta did achieve something greater than the medium because he was not bound by the medium's constraints. Kikuta wasn't emulating anything other than glimpses of his own eclectic background comprised of artists from every spectrum of the music wheel and eras dating decades and centuries back in time.

[razakin]

Ahaha, gotta love when someone drops a negative review the fanboys/girls come jumping down like a horde.

I like this soundtrack, and I have zero problems with Hellacia's review or his opinions about the soundtrack, because it's his opinion. So people, chill out.

[Ramza]

Originally Posted by Jormungand

It actually sounds more like trolling than a music review, to be honest.

This.

Originally Posted by Razakin

Ahaha, gotta love when someone drops a negative review the fanboys/girls come jumping down like a horde.

I like this soundtrack, and I have zero problems with Hellacia's review or his opinions about the soundtrack, because it's his opinion. So people, chill out.

If by "chill out" you mean "don't feed the trolls," I can sympathize. Otherwise, no.

And now I will feed the troll. Because this is just ridiculous.

You don't have to be a fanboy of a particular composer to defend the music for what it is. I'm not head-over-heels for Kikuta-san, but I'd happily take a few minutes to rebut and refute Hellacia. Opinions are what they are, but opinions stated as though they are fact tend to just add fuel to the drama-friendly troll fire.

Honestly, when I read something like this...

Originally Posted by Hellacia

There's nothing enjoyable about listening to any of the songs - this soundtrack is the SERIOUS BUSINESS of VGM.

I almost double over in laughter at the absurdist irony of it all. Three paragraphs of ranting about how one distinguishes genuine music from pretentious MUZAK without a) knowing how to describe the difference in any coherent way and b) ascribing motive to a composer without having done any research into the composer's own written words about past projects -- any attempt to be an authority on what's "fake" based on melody, harmony, rhythm, instrumentation, what have you ... only at this point can you even begin to have the retarded dichotomy of genuine vs SERIOUS BUSINESS.

My take on it? Hellacia went out on a limb and bought the Soukaigi soundtrack at market-value price (which is probably somewhat high since this album never got a reprint). Hellacia listened, listened again, realized the amount of money paid did not net the enjoyment proportional to what was expected from such a price, and was summarily butthurt. In an attempt to alleviate the pain of a bad purchase, a shitty cathartic rant on a message board ensued. As such, none of said rant has any real bearing on the quality of the songs on the soundtrack.

Excessive reverb aside, "Quake" is a strong piece of "world jazz" music, and is a precursor to the now prominent trend of ethnic-chanty vocals in VGM (i.e. -- to accuse it of being dumb within the present context of it being over-used is anachronistic and in no way thoughtful). And "Fire Wire," despite being a very simple A-B pattern, probably would've garnered praise from Hellacia had it been rendered in the soundfont used for SD2 and SD3. But the snares weren't recorded well, so hey, let's snipe at that one thing and ignore the impressive musicianship both in terms of the actual composition and the (likely) improvisational skills of the other performers (guitar, violin, bass, piano).

Finally, that's very nice that you don't read music reviews, but those of us who do bother to write them do so because we enjoy analyzing music and discussing its positive and negative traits, within our own frame of reference, with other fans. In attacking this album, it seems to me you went out of your way to shit on people who have said positive things about the album and/or who have a lot of opinions about VGM. Specifically with statements like:

I'm not naming names, but I find it a little hard to believe that everybody likes music for the purist of reasons. I know I don't, and I don't have any trouble admitting it.

What is that supposed to even mean? That people are elitist and base their taste on music based on rarity and "collectability?" That people will cling to a particular artist or publisher as a favorite and eschew others?

Even if someone does that, if they're still actually enjoying what they're hearing, who gives a shit? What makes that any less pure? Unless we had some kind of friggin' insider trading bullshit going on where I or other people financially profited off of which albums sell and which don't, there's nothing "impure" about how certain people tend to find themselves categorized as, say, Falcom fans, or CAVE fans, or Japanophiles in general (elevating import over domestic), etcetc.

And honestly, go ahead and name names, give an example for what you mean -- if there were any actual meaning behind it. I have my doubts.

[Hellacia]

Look, if you guys want to call it trolling, go ahead. If it makes you feel good to discredit someone's opinion when its different than yours by calling it trolling, then I guess that's what's gonna get you through the day. But I'm dead fucking serious, this soundtrack is shit. This soundtrack is mega-shit, actually. I can't bring myself to listen to it a second time around.

Also, as part of the Gamingforce crew, I'm a bit surprised you're all taking this shit so seriously. You all talk about nostalgia bullshit so much, but then when someone suggests that people like music for various reasons other than the music itself, you have a huge cow. I find the hypocrisy rampant in this thread. So many people are going to like a soundtrack they played the game for more than one they didn't, because of nostalgia. Someone else is going to like it because Yasunori Mitsuda composed it and everything he does is gold. Someone else is going to like it because it uses real instruments and they just think that's the bee's knees of VGM. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that some people like this dump because it's obscure and underground and Kikuta and real instruments. If you're arguing this point, I just hear a guilty fucking conscience. If you're not arguing this point, congratulations, you've discovered that I wasn't targeting you or anyone else personally in that statement.

Seriously, you all need to learn to read someone's opinion and go "oh, that's his shitty opinion, okay." When you attack me for stating my real feelings about this album, you just look like immature fanboys who can't deal with a difference in taste. Nowhere did I say that Kikuta tried to do anything; I only used those statements to describe the sound that I heard on the CD, and I was pretty clear about that. I won't defend my position on the soundtrack further either, because I'm not obligated to, nor will it do any good to people who can't see further than their own tastes.

[Phonograph]

personally, I don't read any type reviews because of subjectivity
you can hate what another likes and vice versa

but if I should choose to read a review, that would be by someone who comprehends the world of music (like blitz or jorm)
mainly because they make music themselves and can know stuff the common dude doesn't

@ramza: it could sound like an rpgfan review ;p

[Hellacia]

btw I do want to say something to you Ramza, and not to attack you.

Originally Posted by Ramza

Opinions are what they are, but opinions stated as though they are fact tend to just add fuel to the drama-friendly troll fire.

There is a wide-used phrase in our language: "it goes without saying." This phrase exists for situations such as these. When you talk about what you think of music, it is automatically and quite obviously your opinion, and that goes without saying. So, it's pointless to add instances of "I think" in a review because it's obvious that the entire review is what you think. I can't comment on Kikuta's intent, state of mind, or anything else in regards to the creation of this CD, nor did I ever do so. I simply described what I heard, and didn't feel the need to add instances of "I think" because I figured it... well, went without saying.

There's really no way not to state an opinion as a fact because in a way it is a fact: the fact is that this is my opinion of the music. So, I will state that much as fact.

[Ramza]

I call you a troll not to discredit your opinion (I think the rest of my response did that just fine). I call you a troll because I think you expected, and wanted, a rise out of your contrarian opinion. You believed this album to have an inflated importance among the VGM community, else you wouldn't have had reason to be so let down by the album.

To me, there's a big difference between "difference in taste" and the method in which you choose to express your displeasure (to writ: "I'm dead fucking serious, this soundtrack is shit"). That's strong, crass, emotive language that is meant to elicit a response. Don't come here talking about peoples' maturity levels without checking yourself, and your language, first. As for me, all I can say is that there is again an absurd irony here in that you're perfectly comfortable attacking a compilation of music that was, at the time, a ton of hard and likely heartfelt work by a bunch of musicians, but you take umbrage to the fact that people would take the time to criticize your opinion.

In other words, consider the meta-narrative of the creation myth that involves the world sitting on the back of the turtle. And when asked what that turtle is standing on, the native replies "another turtle." And from there, "It's turtles all the way down." If music can be critiqued and criticized, so can opinions. You wanna come here and talk about opinions being valid no matter what? Okay. How about opinions of opinions? Or opinions of opinions of opinions? And at what point does maturity have anything to do with it?

EDIT -- while I wrote that, more was written.

I credit you this, "it goes without saying" is certainly true, and it would/does get redundant to preface every single opinion with "I think." So I follow you there. But the strength and certainty of your opinion is dangerous territory. As a reviewer, I've had to eat crow more than once for speaking in hyperbole.

[Psychonotes]

Originally Posted by Hellacia

This entire soundtrack sounds like it was composed by somebody trying to write "real" music instead of "game" music. It sounds like Hiroki Kikuta spent the entire CD saying "Look at what a musician I am!"

Pretty minor at this point, given the tempest in a teapot that's erupted here, but you emboldened the specific part of your criticism that I called out... without explaining anything further. So, I guess to repeat, how does a live piece of music sound like it's trying to be real? How does a composer sound like they're aggrandizing themselves purely by virtue of a stylistic choice?

[Vert1]

So essentially the music lacks soul?

[CHz]

Originally Posted by Hellacia

Also, as part of the Gamingforce crew, I'm a bit surprised you're all taking this shit so seriously.

A small note on this part: VGMdb hasn't been affiliated with Gamingforce for years. It's only serious business here, all the time.

Anyway I hate this album, but because there's only fifty minutes of music. KIKUTA GIVE ME ALL OF YOUR FOLK PROG

[Hellacia]

Oh I'm not talking about affiliation, I'm talking about the fact that this is the same bunch of people at both places. Then again what do I know, I just joined. But, I see a lot of "nostalgiafag" references in the BSC threads and I don't think it's completely in jest.

Originally Posted by Vert1

So essentially the music lacks soul?

Yes, and this is mainly the answer to Psychonotes's question, though I'll still answer him personally.

Originally Posted by Psychonotes

how does a live piece of music sound like it's trying to be real? How does a composer sound like they're aggrandizing themselves purely by virtue of a stylistic choice?

I think you're taking the reality of the instrumentation too literally, but that's my fault. What I meant by this is that there's no content behind the music, and that each individual song basically just goes through the motions of its genre. Sure you can put lots of notes together and call it music, but to me music is something more than that. When I listened to Soukaigi, I found no real substance in what the music was doing, only that it was doing it. "Real" music is just the way I chose to word how I was feeling about the insincerity of the entire album, I'm sorry the terminology seemed to have confused you. Obviously it's real music in the sense that it has a time signature, instruments produced the sounds, etc, but there's an extremely important part about each song that's missing to me and like Vert1 said, that part is the soul. This is also why I decided to describe the soundtrack the way I did regarding Kikuta's mindset, in that it sounded like he just produced the music to achieve a particular sound. Sure, the sound is achieved, but without any real inspiration behind it. That is what it sounds like to me though.

[Xenofan 29A]

Originally Posted by Phonograph

but if I should choose to read a review, that would be by someone who comprehends the world of music (like blitz or jorm)
mainly because they make music themselves and can know stuff the common dude doesn't

I think that there are a good number of us who are either musicians or have had some musical training. I've tried my hand at composition as well, along with many others.

And even without that, as long as one is musically sensitive and has insight, that person can be a worthwhile reviewer.

[Ramza]

Originally Posted by Hellacia

Oh I'm not talking about affiliation, I'm talking about the fact that this is the same bunch of people at both places. Then again what do I know, I just joined. But, I see a lot of "nostalgiafag" references in the BSC threads and I don't think it's completely in jest.

AHA!

I hadn't quite understood what you meant about nostalgia and hypocrisy, but now I do. This is a point, just so you know, that I very much am agreement with you on. I've seen that kind of talking on gforce and I think it's ridiculous. There's nothing wrong with recognizing and honoring feelings of nostalgia for what they are, and there's nothing wrong with preferring the vgm of the '80s to the vgm of today, if that's what floats your boat.

[Phonograph]

Originally Posted by Xenofan 29A

...

And even without that, as long as one is musically sensitive and has insight, that person can be a worthwhile reviewer.

bah, I think I'd be a very bad reviewer
I had read some reviews long ago, speaking about what instruments used or tempo or whatever and I'm pretty sure I'd be unable to make something like that

if you like reviews like "I like this ost" or "I don't like this ost"
or even, I could make a review but without being a review
saying where or when a song is played for a game I played etc.

for example, bish's growlanser ost review at chudahscorner is wrong and I told him (bah it has never been corrected)

Originally Posted by bishop743

"Taste of Blood," which could very well be the final battle theme, denotes the type of sensation one would receive during a culminating confrontation. It's brash, aggressive and unforgiving; the true definition of a final boss theme.

actually, the final boss theme is "immortal enemy"
for info, "taste of blood" is just a dungeon theme (the ugliest dungeon of the game btw)

[CHz]

Originally Posted by Hellacia

Oh I'm not talking about affiliation, I'm talking about the fact that this is the same bunch of people at both places. Then again what do I know, I just joined. But, I see a lot of "nostalgiafag" references in the BSC threads and I don't think it's completely in jest.

Unless people have accounts under different names that I've never known about, I only recognize two other past participants (out of eight other posters in the discussion at that point?), and I think both have stopped participating. Even if there were more, discussion here tends to be less glib and more mellow than there. Things like "nostalgiafag" tend not to get said here, for example.

Sorry for spending so much time on a pretty insignificant point; it just seems like you were expecting a different audience than you got.