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  #151  
Old Apr 27, 2011, 02:29 PM
LiquidAcid LiquidAcid is offline
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@Metroid: You would sue a distributor just because he sent you the wrong album? Honestly, I would just contact customer support and make them aware of their mistake. You probably don't even have to return the wrongly sent album in that case...
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  #152  
Old Apr 27, 2011, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metroid View Post
Well concerning that album, first thing I would search would be the word "Sozoshi". I would likely to be redirected straight to the album, but yeah if it's a hobby then catalogue number would be the first choice, average users will most likely search for the title first.
I would suggest changing how you search. It doesn't matter what kind of user you are, you should be searching for Japanese products by catalog number. There is no reason not to.
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  #153  
Old Apr 27, 2011, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedille View Post
Searching albums by romaji would not be the best way here. In this case, it could be also "Souzoushi" or such. Personally, I'm pretty fond of searching albums by kanji/kana, since it's not discarded with only one character, but I know I'm at the minority side.
Yeah but that would be the least common word on the title, reason I would search for, language would be irrelevant.

Quote:
Both PlayAsia and CD Japan were wrong with the romanization of the very album we're talking about, although I do think retails are closer to the second source and generally trust them.
It is wrong but it looks right.

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Originally Posted by LiquidAcid View Post
@Metroid: You would sue a distributor just because he sent you the wrong album? Honestly, I would just contact customer support and make them aware of their mistake. You probably don't even have to return the wrongly sent album in that case...
Yes, because of the information provided.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dancey View Post
I would suggest changing how you search. It doesn't matter what kind of user you are, you should be searching for Japanese products by catalog number. There is no reason not to.
Off course it does, average users will always search first for western names before catalogue or romanization, just tell to the admin send you a search log and you will understand.

This is a database and I think that simplifying the search by using or link titlename of major retailers would be a plus for many users yet to come.

There is no pointing in continuing with this anymore. I hope most got my point.
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  #154  
Old Apr 28, 2011, 01:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metroid View Post
Yeah but that would be the least common word on the title, reason I would search for, language would be irrelevant.
Wouldn't most common word be tonelico? Or just search ar tonelico 2/II, instead words that doesn't even belong on the soundtrack title. And average user pretty sure wouldn't have any clue to search in romanized japanese.
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  #155  
Old May 10, 2011, 12:11 AM
Cedille Cedille is offline
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Btw, couldn't you decrease the width of the guideline message? I guess it's not me, but every time I expand the album title form and try to put the caret into the expanded part, it is after all covered by the guideline messages, so I end up moving the caret using by a keyboard. Pixel reduction may not be the best solution, but this is my complaint of several years.
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  #156  
Old Aug 22, 2011, 06:57 AM
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Where are we in the guideline?

I am not agree with the current guide "If the game has an official english name, you may use it instead of the romanized Japanese name (Art of Fighting instead of Ryouko no Ken)."

I reverted all the "White Knight Chronicles" albums to "Shirokishi Monogatari".
Again for the following reasons i think are obvious (at least to me):
- There's no mention in the scans of the name of White Knight Chronicles
- It's a Japanese album and we should always reflete that (with romanization as the display title) if the scans are not romanized.

I am basing all of this on our previous discussions (ex the Ar Tonelico II case, previous page).

Last edited by Myrkul; Aug 22, 2011 at 07:01 AM.
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  #157  
Old Aug 23, 2011, 06:01 AM
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We spun our wheels on the guidelines for a while, until we ran out of energy.

Ultimately, I don't think I have a problem with doing what you suggest, as I suspect it's what we already do in the majority of cases. Note though that it may be a big change for some things, particularly certain animes.
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  #158  
Old Aug 23, 2011, 06:20 AM
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Without a defacto standard, this comes down to 100% user preference. In fact, if we had a preference to prioritize our display orders (English > Romanization > Japanese > other, etc) this wouldn't even be an issue.

Personally, I want to see English titles if one is available. This is primarily an English website for English speaking users. Romanization would be preferred for any game that doesn't have an English official title and Japanese for anything that someone hasn't romanized yet.

I'm willing to bet that the majority of users who use this site for information don't really care about anything anyone has said in this discussion and would be better off allowing them to choose their standard, anyway.

Taking your White Knight Chronicles example and expanding it further, if someone comes to this site to look up information on the album, whether it's for track titles, ripping, translated credits, scans, etc, the majority are going to type "White Knight Chronicles" into the search box. Fortunately, the search searches all of the album titles so the results still pull back, but for any non-Japanese speaker or person unfamiliar with games/series, etc, seeing a romanized search result is just not intuitive at all. Even past that, they're going to pull up the album information and they're more than likely going to ignore any standards you have put in place for whatever they're doing anyway.

I don't think there will ever be 100% agreement on this issue, and there's already way too many standards and nuances with albums to add any more. On top of that, there's no enforcement of policy so there's differences between albums, series; It really comes down to who added it first and/or if anyone caught the discrepancy.

Let's all just agree to disagree, shall we?
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  #159  
Old Aug 23, 2011, 08:37 AM
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honestly, vgmdb could turn like animenewsnetwork

when you browse their site, you have english titles (I have sometimes no idea of what anime is until I see the romanized or japanese title)
romanized titles, and I'm not 100% sure but I think some italian or polish titles are even showed for some animes which should have at least a "known" title
I just say that for saying their site is a real mess

my opinion is the product showed by default in here should be "romanized/official japanese (if exists)" and probably the localisation name for noobs (in brackets)

@cedille: if I have well understood, I experienced the same problem too
when I expand the field to the right and write text, the guidelines mix with it and that becomes unreadable, that could be better if the guidelines move to the bottom when you want to expand the album title textarea

nb: vgmdb is maybe for english users, but the world isn't an english-speaking world
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  #160  
Old Aug 23, 2011, 08:46 AM
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Which is why the best option is personal preference and letting us choose what we want defaulted, and if it's not set, then stick with whatever is currently set or whatever loose ranking or standard is applied. There is, after all, no definitive way for us to define what is and what is not an official product name. One could make an argument for almost every product in the database one way or another (see: Rahxephon).

And actually, statistically speaking, the world is an English-speaking world. I'm not trying to promote or endorse anything, but I'm sure the majority of visitors here are English or Japanese, or speak at least one of them. I'd put a wager on the fact that English, Japanese and French are all top 3 in terms of visitor languages
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  #161  
Old Aug 23, 2011, 08:54 AM
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How are you guys expanding the edit fields to the right? I can only stretch them vertically.
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  #162  
Old Aug 23, 2011, 09:15 AM
LiquidAcid LiquidAcid is offline
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Are we talking about this issue?
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/822/testrrp.jpg/
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  #163  
Old Aug 23, 2011, 09:16 AM
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Might be a browser discrepancy, Chrome lets me pull to the right with the // in the lower right hand corner of the control box.
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  #164  
Old Aug 23, 2011, 09:18 AM
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Hasn't Blah been working on the multilingual refurbishment since last year? I've for one thought one of the biggest obstacle about the title ordering is we have rather ambiguous "Display" and "Original" lines. Let the language each user can specify be always displayed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
How are you guys expanding the edit fields to the right? I can only stretch them vertically.
I tend to stretch the form to uncover all the text. I'd like to expand the artist and product fields as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidAcid View Post
Exactly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dancey View Post
Might be a browser discrepancy, Chrome lets me pull to the right with the // in the lower right hand corner of the control box.
I'm using Chrome too.
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  #165  
Old Aug 23, 2011, 09:20 AM
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I think so, but my title box doesn't stretch like that. It always has scrollbars. I dont' think the boxes are supposed to be stretchable horizontally at all.

Edit: Ah, I see, so Chrome lets you do this, but IE and Firefox do not. I'm not sure this was the design intent.
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  #166  
Old Aug 23, 2011, 09:26 AM
LiquidAcid LiquidAcid is offline
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@Secret Squirrel: It's Seamonkey 2.2, uses the same rendering engine (Gecko 2.0.x) as the 4.x series of Firefox. So it might be totally different with the latest FF version.
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  #167  
Old Aug 23, 2011, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dancey View Post
And actually, statistically speaking, the world is a Chinese-speaking world.
Obligatory fix.
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  #168  
Old Aug 23, 2011, 10:17 AM
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For the title issue, I think the more reasonable, consistent way right now (until Blah does multilang or such) is to always put the US name in the fourth line [unless it's written in the album, then can be used as display], and add an extra user option to display the 4th line instead if it exists.
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  #169  
Old Aug 23, 2011, 10:32 AM
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let me add "Tales of Destiny II Original Soundtrack" in the Tales of Eternia OST title
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  #170  
Old Aug 23, 2011, 10:36 AM
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If it makes some people happy, why not
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  #171  
Old Aug 24, 2011, 02:35 AM
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What you guys think of guessing readings of album titles, btw? We already decided not to accept any unconfirmed readings of artists, but on the other hand, we basically don't leaves titles in Kanji, while not every time are we sure about album titles (especially, Touhou is concerned), and then have to rely on common sense and speculation. This is the double-standard we've overlooked for a while, despite the possible bigger impact of a wrong album title than an artist reading.

I know we can say that providing at least one alphabetic title must be given the highest priority, even with the risk of wrong readings, for an English-based community, nonetheless.
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  #172  
Old Aug 24, 2011, 02:53 AM
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I've been pretty bad about that in the past, worse than I ever was with guessing names, but nowadays I try not to guess album titles too. If I'm submitting something I'm unsure about, I'll usually just leave the title in Japanese and make a discussion thread about it. Bad album titles can get out there just as easily as bad artist names.
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  #173  
Old Sep 9, 2011, 04:55 AM
Cedille Cedille is offline
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Or we may benefit from having some checkbox to mark the title if we're not sure about the reading, the romanization, or even the title (the last case actually often happens, as publishers can announce a soundtrack release, with enough details to make an entry here, yet we don't know the exact title until to see the album cover. In short, automatic addition of a "(tentative)" prefix or such.
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  #174  
Old Dec 8, 2011, 09:52 PM
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I waa going to post this in separate threads, but then I realized "Why not used the thread made for this, Hellacia!"

Like I posted in the GRAN TURISMO Original Game Soundtrack discussion, I'm all for representing the title of something accurately - using the same misspellings and the same silly capitalization and whatnot - but that's assuming all that is actually part of the title. I feel that sometimes we have such a need to transcribe everything just the way it is that we kind of miss the point a little.

Take CREID and Actraiser for great examples. I'm sure some of you will say I'm being too speculative, but I honestly don't think Mitsuda named this CD CREID Yasunori Mitsuda & Millennial Fair. Seriously. He named the CD CREID. That is the name. Track 4 is not named CREID Yasunori Mitsuda & Millennial Fair. Track 4 is named CREID. I think it's the obvious title. Same with Actraiser. It is saying "This is the title of the CD / This is who did it". Just because these things appear where the title appears doesn't make it part of the title. Take, for example, the "FINAL FANTASY VIII" Original Soundtrack. In basically every place the title pops up, I see Composed, Arranged & Produced by Nobuo Uematsu. So, we should make that part of the title, right? (Wrong.)

Totally not attacking anyone here. Just trying to make a valid point. When I joined I saw it fit to submit versions of tracklists that had proper capitalization. Now I think that's pretty retarded. I've learned a lot about reflecting what is really there. And I think the actual title of something is what we should put in our title field. Yes, we should strive to accurately transcribe that title as it was written, but as it was written.

Last edited by Hellacia; Mar 17, 2012 at 12:51 PM.
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  #175  
Old Dec 8, 2011, 10:07 PM
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CREID is one of the earliest entries in the database, so it was submitted before we had any semblance of guidelines in place. Nowadays we also place major priority on how the publisher officially transcribes the album title, so this appears to support your case: http://www.procyon-studio.com/disco/cd_creid.html

"Yasunori Mitsuda & Millennial Fair" is essentially the "artist" portion of the title, so given current standards (and ignoring the publisher's transcription) it would be "CREID / Yasunori Mitsuda & Millennial Fair", with the separator in between. However there's also the obi to consider, which has the additional prefix "Xenogears Arrange Version".

My preference would be just "CREID" for the first line, and dump the full title -- Xenogears Arrange Version "CREID" / Yasunori Mitsuda & Millennial Fair -- in the alternative title section.
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  #176  
Old Dec 8, 2011, 10:56 PM
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That alternate title would pretty much cover everything else all in one.

Yeah, maybe it's just me, but I find that the obi will write something in a way that isn't seen anywhere else on the album - I guess usually it's more informative or contains the "fullest" title (and usually in Japanese; if you see something in English on an obi, that's some hardcore English titling). For my own collection, I try to go with the way something appears the most frequently on the album, but there's all sorts of ways to handle that.
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  #177  
Old Dec 12, 2011, 11:21 AM
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as myrkul suggested me in a recent post, I'm gonna say something about localizations
it'll be simpler with examples, maybe (only concerning japanese releases)

Q: does the Final Fantasy Adventure Sound Collections exist?
A: no, but the product represented has that name, can anyone say it's logical? (to me, no)

Q: does the All Sounds of Final Fantasy Legend exist?
A: no, same as above

I never really noticed it before seeing the Seiken Densetsu Complete Music Book with:
Final Fantasy Adventure, Secret of Mana, Legend of Mana, Sword of Mana, Children of Mana, Dawn of Mana, Heroes of Mana

and that funny thing is the only product matching the title of the box is Seiken Densetsu 3 (it's like an intruder ;p)
there is nothing that shocks you?

at least, titles like LoM, SwOM, CoM or HoM could have "(Shinyaku for SwOM) Seiken Densetsu (DS for CoM): "
I don't remember where I said that or even if I said it on the forums but I was forced to search for info about Dawn of Mana because I have no idea of what it was (now I know it's SD4, edit: I had forgot that there is a page about it on the site)

I could give other examples but I think it's enough
maybe something could be made for people who really want an english localization but it should be optional, not imposed

Last edited by Phonograph; Dec 12, 2011 at 11:24 AM.
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  #178  
Old Dec 12, 2011, 11:46 AM
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Not sure if i understand your point, but i want to say this thread is about the Titles (titles of the albums)... and not about the titles/names or the products field.
Though we do not have a "product" guideline.

I agree with you i find a bit strange an album that have a romanized title (because it's a Japanese release), and the product field display title is localized.
(it's like having a garou densetsu album, and product field: fatal fury).
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  #179  
Old Dec 12, 2011, 12:02 PM
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it's not that far, both are complementary
I think album title and product title could be discussed together
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  #180  
Old Dec 12, 2011, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phonograph View Post
Q: does the Final Fantasy Adventure Sound Collections exist?
A: no, but the product represented has that name, can anyone say it's logical? (to me, no)
To explain our reasoning: The product in question was released in NA as 'Final Fantasy Adventure', so we use that as the display title for the product page. The album in question, 'Final Fantasy Gaiden: Seiken Densetsu Original Sound Version' (I guess that's the one you meant) bears that name, so we use it as the display title for the album page.

Since we're primarily an English language website we'll use the English title, if there is one, as the display title even if it may cause some confusion for people more used to the original title. If you prefer to see original titles over the 'display' titles though, you can go into the site preferences (via the 'gear' icon at the top right of any page) and change "Title / Name Language" to 'Original'.

Additionally though, having the same popup showing the original names of artists that we have might be useful for 'products represented' as well.
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