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#1
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Artist Profile Updates
Artist discographies can now be separated into two parts, original discography and featured work. Featured work refers to derivative albums (particularly doujins) that include arranged or remixed tracks without the involvement of the original composer. Moreover, ratings for featured work are not tallied into an artist's weighted album rating. Staff can designate an artist credit as "featured" in the artist assignment interface using the checkbox next to the role selection dropdown.
Refback links next to the visitor counter are now active on both album and artist pages, so you can click on them if available to display a list of incoming URLs. |
#2
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Note to self: Deleting a group-type artist should also remove associated member entries.
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#3
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er... nm.
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R. Bemrose, Webmaster VGMusic.com |
#4
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Great addition Blah. But what do you think we should do with the likes of Best of the Best, Volume 1 and Video Games Live: Greatest Hits – Volume One though? Do we draw the line at something which has been officially sanctioned by the copyright holder? or at something which has been produced by the copyright holder? or at an album in which the original artist had a direct involvement, in some capacity? (this one seems most logical to me)
Last edited by seanne; May 23, 2008 at 01:18 PM. |
#5
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That's a question I hope everyone can chime in on. At its simplest it's a way to separate fanmade material from "official" works; if we get into direct artist involvement, compilation and omnibus albums will fall under the definition of featured work, too. Still, what's important is how the majority want the information to be presented (and I'm not ruling out separating the listings even further).
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#6
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I like the use of this feature to remove the doujins (both East and West) from the standard artist discographies. I'd rather not remove the other stuff - misc official arranges, compilations, since I think they are generally of interest to someone who is viewing a discography.
However, I'm not sure the term "Featured Works" clearly describes what is being listed, though I'm having trouble thinking about a replacement. |
#7
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I've changed the term to "Featured in", which should be a bit more indicative.
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#8
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Nice amendment, Blah! I definitely agree that doujin works should be put in the "featured in" section. As for stuff like Best of the Best compilations etc, methinks they should go in the discography section, otherwise things could potentially become quite messy and meticulous.
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#9
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Just a thought, doesn't "Featured On" make more sense?
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#10
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Blah, thank you very much for implementing this. I believe I was the first person to suggest this, so I want to personally thank you for doing this. I'm going to check it out now.
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hi~ |
#11
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I'm still weary about not using the "featured" field on albums that the composer had no new/direct involvement in, even if they are official soundtracks. Example: Mario RPG. I'm sure you could infer from the composer/arranger credits that Yoko was the one in charge of music and that she merely took some of Koji and Nobuo's stuff to arrange. However, looking on the artist page for Koji or Nobuo, all you see is a composer credit for Mario RPG. It wasn't as if they composed anything specifically for it. Rather their compositions were featured in it. I rest my case.
I think a fine solution for the people who want to segregate doujins and official albums in the artist profile is simply to filter out "featured" albums of the "doujin" type, rather than the sum of all "featured" albums.
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hi~ |
#12
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That reminds me, I need to update the javascript so that the discography filter works for the featured listing.
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#13
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I've been thinking about the artist page fields in preparation of opening up for public editing.
It would be nice to have a notes field, in parallel to the one on the Album pages. I know we put a lot of general info in the discussion, but there are undoubtedly some things that we'd like to condense out of that and display on the artist pages. Also, we haven't talked much about the biography field. I'd like to open this up as well, but since the discographies are the main focus of the artist pages, I'm thinking that we should limit the bios to something short, probably a paragraph tops summarizing the artist. It'd probably be ideal if these were all original too, instead of lifted from some other site. |
#14
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Sorry for bump this old thread, but since a long time I noticed that there is no consensus on some albums in the database.
I'd like to say that I disagree with the composers featured on several original soundtracks with reprises of games previously released, like Rockman 9, Seiken Densetsu 4, Super Mario RPG, Nintendo Allstar! Dairantou Smash Bros., Akumajo Dracula Judgment Original Soundtrack and some official arranged albums, like Final Fantasy Ukulele Solo Collections and Journeys on a Piano. In contrast, some composers are not featured on original soundtracks like Dissidia Final Fantasy (Nobuo Uematsu), Segagaga Soundtrack Collection Blue (Hiro and Masato Nakamura), Radiata Stories Original Soundtrack (Motoi Sakuraba) and several arranged albums. The main reason is written below, since currently there is no way to filter the doujin albums on featured works: Quote:
Hiroki Kikuta and Yoko Shimomura didn't compose new music specifically for Dawn of Mana. Even is a game original soundtrack, the tracks from Secret of Mana, Seiken Densetsu 3 and Legend of Mana are arranged, like so many other tracks of arranged albums without the involvement of composers in database, but doesn't have composers assigned as featured. For instance, Dragon Quest Best Dance Mix – obviously Koichi Sugiyama didn't compose new tracks specifically for this CD. In my opinion, use the featured option only in original soundtracks and not in arranged albums is inconsistent. Another example: Dairantou Smash Brothers DX Orchestra Concert, which has arranged tracks of Super Smash Bros. Melee. The composers of old Nintendo games was assigned as featured. But I removed this featured because, in practice, are arrangements of old Nintendo tracks like any other Nintendo arranged album. When is clear that the composer participated of the album as an arranger, we don't assign as featured. This isn’t accurate in my opinion because if we use rigorously the same criterion that we use on original soundtracks that I mentioned before, the same album should appear twice in the discography of some artists, which I really don't like, with the composer credit on the list of featured works and arranger credit in regular discography. For example, in the Gyakuten Saiban Orchestra Album there are four tracks that Noriyuki Iwadare originally composed for Gyakuten Saiban 3 – three tracks was arranged by Iwadare himself and one by Kaori Komuro. Moreover, very often the composer was involved on arranged album and isn't explicitly credited. In the album Echoes of War, composers Matt Uelmen, Tracy W. Bush, Derek Duke, Glenn Stafford are assigned as featured composers, but in this interview Hiroaki Yura said: " We have worked with Derek Duke and Glen Stafford from the music department. Our arrangers have been to Blizzard HQ to discuss and receive a tour of the games”. About Super Mario RPG, Koji Kondo appears in Special Thanks list and Nobuo Uematsu in Extra Special Thanks list of game credits. How will we know if they really had no involvement in the soundtrack? Finally, I think it's almost impossible for us to know exactly which composers participated directly in concert collections like PLAY!, VGL or Game Music Concert series and unnecessary try to find out for this purpose. I would like to restrict the featured option only for: 1 - Doujin albums without the involvement of original composers (in other words, without the license for the IP rights of the compositions) 2 - Classical composers 3 - Licensed music. This include arranged tracks of songs originally composed for another purpose (movies, original work etc.), like covers of mainstream music in Bemani albums or Disney songs in Kingdom Hearts. |
#15
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Here's the credits for proof of their duties: http://www.themushroomkingdom.net/ss...its-full.shtml Everyone else should be featured because their works is, in fact, being showcased through the efforts of the HAL Laboratory music staff. They, themselves, had no part in composing or arranging the music, so they should not be on the same level as Shogo Sakai and Hirokazu Ando. I think this is an example of number 3, as the many Nintendo composers are letting their work be arranged by HAL, just as Disney let its music be arranged by Squaresoft. This, of course, applies to the other Smash Bros. titles as well. I also don't think being both active and featured on the same album is a problem; I'm sure it's perfectly possible for an arranger to arrange someone else's compositions (active arranger; light blue) but not arrange their own compositions, instead handled by someone else (featured composer; dark blue) and also not have any new compositions of their own on the album (no other reason for the featured composer to upgrade to active). I believe I've heard of something like that, but I'll have to tell you after I remind myself of what that was. Got it. Chiptuned Rockman. On there, Akari Kaida arranges Naoshi's composition (Opening Stage) but not her own (Groundman Stage), which was handled by Hiroki Isogai. Kaida also doesn't have any new compositons of her own on that album. This makes Kaida both a featured composer (through Hiroki) and an active arranger (through herself in arranging Naoshi). Naoshi, then, would only be featured on that album due to not arranging anything himself for the album. Lastly, all of the tracks on Chiptuned Rockman are from old games and are not at all new compositions; it is an arrangement-only album; there is nothing new composed, so all the composers in the field would then be featured. Doujins work exactly the same way, and all the tracks in Smash Bros that aren't original compositions would follow that logic as well. Hypothetical example: Say all the music arranged exclusively for Melee and Brawl were each released in CD Sets (Why don't they do it already!?) The same thing happens: no new music, just arrangers. The composers would then all be featured as well unless it was, in fact, the original composer would made the arrangement (ex. Sector 1 by Minako Hamano, Overworld Theme by Koji Kondo, Donkey Kong by Hirokazu Tanaka et al., etc.) Sorry Revoc, but I think the wrong idea was put in your head today. It was Shogo Sakai after all who did everything involved with Mach Rider (to name an example) in this game, not Akito Akatsuka; they had absolutely no active role in the production. They're just... featured here. Last edited by kyubihanyou; Mar 9, 2010 at 10:09 PM. |
#16
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This is the way I'd prefer to use the Featured artist too.
I think 3 would also include anime songs used on Super Robot Wars soundtracks. We might also want to extend it to apply to game music that is way outside of its franchise, like if the Mario theme was borrowed for use in a Final Fantasy soundtrack. |
#17
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About anime soundtracks, I’m in doubt because the anime albums will be covered in the database. I think these albums can still be interesting for who wants to see in regular discography, especially the anime soundtracks with tracks originally composed for games, like Blue Dragon the Animation (Nobuo Uematsu) and Arc The Lad TV Animation (Masahiro Andoh).
If we use featured option when the music is from a different franchise, I think it may cause some inconsistencies. For example, in Super Mario RPG, Nobuo Uematsu should be assigned as featured, but not Koji Kondo, since the game is part of Super Mario franchise. And both appears in game credits. |
#18
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Personally I'd always separate when composers are somehow involved in an album or it directly represents a product, and when their music is just reused/arranged/featured for other purposes (doujin or official). In the Smash Bros example now it may seem like all the composers worked on the albums, or that their compositions are meant for the game, that's a bit disinformative.
Then just separate the discographies in several lists, like "featured on - reused music" and "featured on - doujins" (since there are so many of them they deserve their own list) or such. |
#19
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I think it has to be handled on a case-by-case basis, but usually (I feel) that if an artist appears on an album but has no actual involvement (that is, their tracks were only reused or arranged) they should be linked as featured. If they are involved with the album in any way they should not be linked as featured for any credit (because this will result in the album being listed under 'featured on'.)
You can already tell what kind of release it is by the color, not hard to skim through and see. |
#20
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I agree we can handle this on a case by case basis, but I'm personally not a big fan of using 'Involvement' as the standard, because this kind of information is hard for us to get, and even if available, how to treat it is still very subjective. More importantly, I'm not a big fan of seeing one official release on the artist's main discography and the other official release on the featured on discography with Doujin albums, when both albums seemingly has no new composition from the composer anyway.
On Nobuo Uematsu discography, it's safe to say Uematsu was involved in FFIII DS because he gave the arrangers advises according to the interview, but not sure he has any involvement in Dissidia, but I don't like to push Dissidia into the crowd of orange albums while the status of both albums for casual Nobuo Uematsu fans are not so different. I don't think FFIIIDS is a perfect example because one can argue Uematsu must have had the involvement in the arranging and recording session of the opening FMV track or the BLM track, but that's not my point. It's obvious the classic composers aren't involved in any VGM releases, but only a fine line exists between being dead and being retired. I can swear Yasunori Shiono isn't involved in Estpolis Original Soundtrack because Shiono had already retired and he and his wife even didn't know about the announcement of the remake until they were told by his fan. I think we can prepare another rationale on why classic composers have to be set to 'featured' (e.g. from the other genre) other than because they passed away long ago (although I know some people have problem with subsequent additions to the dead composer's discography having after the death). |
#21
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As discussed elsewhere before I think the whole issue is best solved once there is per track credits as well as being able to set tracks as being original or arranged (linking to the original). Then the whole composing, arranging, featuring credits of albums can be generated based on that.
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#22
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#23
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If we follow this criterion, all composers in arranged albums should be marked as "featured", which I don't think is good. What is the difference between Dairantou Smash Brothers DX Orchestra Concert and Game Music Concert series? Both albums contains Nintendo orchestrated tracks in the same way. For example, in the first The Black Mages album, Nobuo Uematsu should be marked as featured because there is no new music from him on this, but I suppose that fans want to see it in regular discography. In the case of the Disney / Squaresoft is different because the songs were originally composed for movies. It's the same as the Ennio Morricone in MGS4, since "Here's to You" is a song originally composed for "Sacco and Vanzetti" movie. For me, the ideal basically would be something like this for the third topic. I'm still in doubt with the songs of anime in games and vice-versa, but I find it interesting to keep especially in cases where the same franchise as the Dag said (which is not the case of Super Robot Taisen): Movie composition -> game soundtrack (featured discography) Original work -> game soundtrack (featured discography) Anime composition -> game soundtrack (regular discography) Game composition -> anime soundtrack (regular discography) Reprise -> game original soundtrack (regular discography) Game composition -> official game arranged soundtrack with or whithout the involvement of the composer (regular discography) Moreover, I agree that every album should be considered on a case by case basis, especially for albums like this. Quote:
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#24
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Otherwise, for arrange albums that have a special/bonus track, those who have original game BGM (ex. Super Mario Land: http://vgmdb.net/album/1478) [no new compositions] or a completely new/not from the game composition for said bonus track (ex. Toshihiko Horiyama in this: http://vgmdb.net/album/15029, where he, being a composer/arranger for Powered Up allows him to ascend past Setsuo, Makoto, Yuki, and Yuko, who did nothing for either of the two games) upgrade from being featured to being a normal composer. The dark blue (Works) text exists solely to make these distinctions. Please check the bottom half of my previous rant post (aka my ace in the hole) for more. Also, why does Final Fantasy get special treatment? The Black Mages is not an OST, nor is it particularly "canon" in terms of arrange soundtracks. The Black Mages are really just a tribute/officialized doujin band and nothing more. MegaDriver would have essentially been SEGA's answer to that with just a few legal manuevers. Lastly, at the end of the day, the search bar - the one, true absolute - finds EVERYTHING. Quote:
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Original work -> game soundtrack (featured discography) ---> Yes Anime composition -> game soundtrack (regular discography) ---> Only if game and anime have a shared composer ala Kazunori Maruyama for Bomberman Jetters (the anime) and Bomberman Jetters Game Collection for the GBA (ported straight from his works). Game composition -> anime soundtrack (regular discography)---> No; game tracks are often arranged from their original form (ex. The Pokemon anime uses no original BGM; VG and anime composers are also not at all the same (Junichi Masuda does not equal Shinji Miyazaki) Reprise -> game original soundtrack (regular discography) --->Yes, if left completely alone; No, if edited by a later composer (I think the original composer would be left off that album at this point); Yes, if edited by a later arranger (as original theme is preserved) Game composition -> official game arranged soundtrack with or without the involvement of the composer (regular discography) -->With, yes; without, no Last edited by kyubihanyou; Mar 10, 2010 at 12:41 PM. |
#25
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I think the discussion is a bit cyclical because we disagree on many key elements. Again, I think Cedille summarize all I think about this issue.
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I know, but the difference is that movie soundtracks are not covered here. |
#26
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1 - when to add an artist as featured To me: always if the album reuses music not meant for it, even in arranges, it's an indication the composer didn't directly compose (ex. kyubi's Chiptuned Rockman) 2 - how it is displayed in the artist page. I think most people don't use "featured" because it sends albums into the Orange Mass. So, why not alter the artist page? Ex.- in "featured on" only featured doujins (or doujin + deceased composers, etc), in "discography" all other albums but write "composer -> featured composer" or such. To me, how it is displayed is less important (=can be altered anytime) than the info "the album reuses music meant for other game/album, the composer didn't do anything here". I guess the key disagreement is what "featured" means for each one... Quote:
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#27
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#28
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Seperating doujin and commercial albums is doable... but it tells you nothing about the artists involvement with a given album because there are many who are involved with both.
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#29
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Reissues are originals as well. The original tracks in the case of VGM come from games, so different recordings/masterings/lengths of that doesn't make one version original and the other fake or something. Think of the originals as products, they can appear on multiple media without ceasing to be originals. If there are multiple versions of originals collectors tend to prefer the oldest appearance, but this doesn't mean the rest is invalid. Last edited by Datschge; Mar 10, 2010 at 07:23 PM. |
#30
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For TBM2 since there it has new material I'd go with non-featured = shown in discography (or maybe 'both'?).
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If you'd link per track to FF originals (or mark them "arranged") = essentially "featured" ('old stuff') per-track = TBM1 would be listed (as of now) with doujins = people don't like that. That's what I mean the core problem is the same (also: there isn't always an original to link, you'd still mark 'arranged'='featured' some tracks). In doujins, artist "featured" = 'reused old stuff', so in regular albums it should mean the same imo. The dancing here is that right now it doesn't and we don't agree on it (mainly because of how it's listed I believe). You say the artist listing would be auto-generated and could be changed on the fly. So the current display style would have to be changed, which we are discussing as well... no? Quote:
Well... linking to originals/arrange marks per track = manually adding tags per track (but more detailed/harder), rather than per artist. The flexibility is the same, just on a lesser scale (either way you could know he did new stuff, just not which one on a glance). We all (?) agree having per-track info would great but until then... |
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