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  #91  
Old Mar 4, 2010, 09:40 AM
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You're forgetting a fourth possibile candidate:

4. English title from the album (when it is present)

I however would prefer to go with the first candidate (romanized from the spine) whenever possible.
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  #92  
Old Mar 4, 2010, 09:49 AM
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Well, yeah, I was just talking about this album.
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  #93  
Old Mar 4, 2010, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
a likely outcome will be sticking with discretion on an album-by-album basis.
This is sensible - however, without a general rule I think several album will be edited and re-edited endlessly

edit: you mean the KICA-7760?
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  #94  
Old Mar 4, 2010, 12:08 PM
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The display should be what people will most easily recognize and in this case most of our traffic is western (or seems to be, Gigablah or Secret Squirrel, confirm/deny?) It's rather presumptuous to expect people to be familiar with romanizations and as stated by others we have the option to change how items are displayed. Personally I'm usually comfortable with romanized names, but if I did a search for a franchise I'm not too familiar with and got a bunch of names I don't recognize I know I would be confused and forced to sort through the results to figure out what is what and find what I'm looking for (you may be able to search for alternate titles, but the display is what's going to show up in search results.) Doing this kind of extra research isn't a bad thing, I like knowing this kind of stuff, but it's still inconvenient when you just want to find what you're looking for. Above all I believe we should be making the information accessible to people (part of why I continue to advocate for using information that may not be exactly what is printed on the album, but is more commonly used.)

To reiterate, because we have the option of changing how names are displayed the default should be what is most accessible.
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  #95  
Old Mar 4, 2010, 01:52 PM
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But the big question here is, would you go with the Akumajo Dracula X ~Nocturne in the Moonlight or Castlevania: Symphony of the Night.

I think I know what you'll answer, but the source of the name is still rather sketchy: we probably need to see it to make sure it doesn't say something like Devil's Castle Dracula X: Nocturne in the Moonlight, as implied by wiki.
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  #96  
Old Mar 4, 2010, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
But the big question here is, would you go with the Akumajo Dracula X ~Nocturne in the Moonlight or Castlevania: Symphony of the Night.

I think I know what you'll answer, but the source of the name is still rather sketchy: we probably need to see it to make sure it doesn't say something like Devil's Castle Dracula X: Nocturne in the Moonlight, as implied by wiki.
It seems to only say "Dracula X" (yt). Note that it uses the same English text during the opening as the English version does, the only difference being that it says Dracula X instead of Castlevania at the end. The game begins after that video stops so it's not likely that there is any further title screen (certainly isn't in the English version).
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Last edited by seanne; Mar 4, 2010 at 02:54 PM.
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  #97  
Old Mar 4, 2010, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanne View Post
It seems to only say "Dracula X" (yt). Note that it uses the same English text during the opening as the English version does, the only difference being that it says Dracula X instead of Castlevania at the end.
Sorry. it's not at the beginning but rather it comes out at the beginning of the end credits: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P70CfHGNLrQ

That's the spot, but I didn't find the correct video, that one is for the US.

p.s. I would display Akumajo Dracula X ~Gekka no Yasoukyoku~ and I would be confident that everyone would reach the album just by typing Symphony of the night in the search bar.

I wouldn't translate Akumajo Dracula to Castlevania, since that would mean a loss of information for those titles which are called Castlevania in Japan. So if you want to avoid romanization at all costs I would go with Nocturne in the Moonlight.

Last edited by The Gambler; Mar 4, 2010 at 03:59 PM.
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  #98  
Old Mar 4, 2010, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Gambler View Post
This is sensible - however, without a general rule I think several album will be edited and re-edited endlessly

edit: you mean the KICA-7760?
I agree, actually. I'd rather concede and let a standard I don't necessarily agree with take over than see an endless cycle of edits on an album due to different opinions between members.

In my opinion, the most important thing is making sure all relevant information is presented rather than which order it's in.

This also ties back to my question about what criteria is necessary for the use of "fan translations" to be included (even if as just line 4+: Alternate titles). SS's answer was only applicable to the specific example I mentioned... unless we have someone going around the entire Internet fixing titles to conform to VGMdb. >_>
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  #99  
Old Mar 4, 2010, 04:54 PM
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I am getting lost, and you guys sure debate a lot..

I don't see why the previous idea by SS was not adopted:
Quote:
Display
1. English title that appears on Front Cover (or Obi) with game name corrected if official game name differs, and other minor corrections permitted.
2. English localized game title + best translation of the rest of the title, if the game has an official English equivalent.
3. Romanized game title + best translation of the rest of the title, if there is no official English title for the game.
So if we apply SS proposition for KICA-7760:

There is no english title on front & obi covers! (yes there is one but it's on the back cover little spines.. so we will discard it and clearly state on our guiline that we are only using Front & Obi texts)
Is there an english localized name title? Yes, it's Castlevania: Symphony of the night.

So the whole KICA-7760 entry should be like
Castlevania: Symphony of the night Original Game Soundtrack
悪魔城ドラキュラX~月下の夜想曲~ ORIGINAL GAME SOUNDTRACK
Akumajo Dracula X ~Gekka no Yasoukyoku~ Original Game Soundtrack
Akumajo Dracula X ~Nocturne in the Moonlight~ Original Game Soundtrack


EDIT: i tryed to do a full synthese myself with the remarks so far.. it's big so pardon me but i made it as complete as possible!
Quote:
# Display

1. English album title that appears on Front/Obi cover + best translation of the rest of the title
2. English album title that is used on publisher/distributer websites + best translation of the rest of the title
3. English game title + best translation of the rest of the title (if the game has an official English localization)
4. English game title + best translation of the rest of the title (if the game has no official English localization but an English title was used in the game)
5. Romanized album title as displayed in on Front/Obi cover + best translation of the rest of the title
6. Romanized album title used anywhere in the album package + best translation of the rest of the title
7. Romanized album title used on publisher/distributer websites + best translation of the rest of the title
8. Official romanization of Asian titles + best translation of the rest of the title [doesn't have to conform to VGMdb's romanization scheme]
9. Best full romanization of Asian titles if one is not available + best translation of the rest of the title [conforms to VGMdb's romanization scheme]


# Original

1. Album name exactly as it appears on Front/Obi cover (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank)
2. If everything is English, album title as it appears on Front/Obi cover with no correction (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank)


# Romanized

1. Romanized album title as displayed in on Front/Obi cover + best translation of the rest of the title (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank)
2. Romanized title used anywhere in the album package + best translation of the rest of the title (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank)
3. Romanized album title used on publisher/distributer websites + best translation of the rest of the title (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank)
4. Official romanization of Asian titles + best translation of the rest of the title (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank) [doesn't have to conform to VGMdb's romanization scheme].
5. Best full romanization of Asian titles if one is not available + best translation of the rest of the title (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank) [conforms to VGMdb's romanization scheme].


# Alternate

1. English album title used in other part of the package + best translation of the rest of the title (skip that unless there is any)
2. English album title used on publisher/distributer websites + best translation of the rest of the title. (skip that unless there is any or if it is the same as the Display title)
3. English game title + best translation of the rest of the title (skip that unless there is any or if it is the same as the Display title)
4. English game title + best translation of the rest of the title (if the game has no official English localization but an English title was used in the game, skip that unless there is any or if it is the same as the Display title)
5. Fan translation of Game Title + best translation of the rest of the title, for those albums for which it is appropriate (skip that unless there is any)
6. Japanese official title for a Japanese works released with only English titles on the album. (for searchability)
Most important things:
There is a big difference with "Album Title" & "Game Title".
Maybe we need to make a choice of order between the Front & the Obi cover as they often does not display the same thing (obi is more complete most of the time)

Last edited by Myrkul; Mar 5, 2010 at 01:06 AM.
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  #100  
Old Mar 4, 2010, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrkul View Post
# Original
1. Album name exactly as it appears on Front/Obi cover (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank)
2. If everything is English, album title as it appears on Front/Obi cover with no correction (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank)
Well summed up but I have a couple questions.

In Secret Squirrel's draft, there was guideline on which was preferentially seen as the Original when both English and Japanese titles were printed, but don't you like that idea?

Also, I still don't understand how much of discretion is allowed for the capitalization and the usage of spaces (which is one of the major causes of cyclical editing, but I feel like we're leaning toward all caps if it's printed).
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  #101  
Old Mar 4, 2010, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigablah View Post
(Just to clarify; the above pertains to albums that don't already have official transcriptions provided by the album publisher)
I forgot to ask for clarification on this, does this mean if there is an official transcription that it should be used for original or display, or what?
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  #102  
Old Mar 5, 2010, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
(yes there is one but it's on the back cover little spines.. so we will discard it and clearly state on our guiline that we are only using Front & Obi texts)
Huh? excuse me, but is there a particular reason why the text on the obi and on the front / booklet is any more significant than text on the back / sides of the case? Doesn't make much sense in my view?

Quote:
Is there an english localized name title? Yes, it's Castlevania: Symphony of the night.
These are Japanese soundtracks of Japanese games, released in Japan. Why would we want to give away the false impression that these are soundtracks of the English localized games? There are several cases of soundtracks getting a western release (even KICA 7760, if I'm not mistaken, is now available in the west in digital download format), so why we should call the Japanese soundtracks in a way that misrepresent them for what they are not?

Why this album: http://vgmdb.net/album/4772 should be displayed in a way that leads people to think it's something else, for example this album: http://vgmdb.net/album/12151

Last edited by The Gambler; Mar 5, 2010 at 09:47 AM.
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  #103  
Old Mar 5, 2010, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Gambler View Post
Huh? excuse me, but is there a particular reason why the text on the obi and on the front / booklet is any more significant than text on the back / sides of the case? Doesn't make much sense in my view?
Yeah i forgot to edit that in my sum list.. i should add it since you'r right, it's stupid to ommit it, but front & obi should have higher priority.

Quote:
These are Japanese soundtracks of Japanese games, released in Japan. Why would we want to give away the false impression that these are soundtracks of the English localized games? There are several cases of soundtracks getting a western release (even KICA 7760, if I'm not mistaken, is now available in the west in digital download format), so why we should call the Japanese soundtracks in a way that misrepresent them for what they are not?
I think this is fine if the original game & the localized one use the same music, that could be a major mistake to give an english title to a foreign game that have exclusive music.

What do you suggest? To use Romanized title for every Japanese release?
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  #104  
Old Mar 5, 2010, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ira View Post
I forgot to ask for clarification on this, does this mean if there is an official transcription that it should be used for original or display, or what?
If official transcriptions are available in two language versions, technically they should both be "original" with another field to denote their languages. But that's for a future improvement to our title system. For now we just map the transcriptions to the equivalent language lines.

Naturally there should be some discretion involved -- titles may sometimes be misprinted on albums, but it's just as likely for a title to be misprinted on an official website. I've even had cases where titles were inconsistent across the album booklet, the back of the album, and the website. (Though websites can also be the source of official corrections by the publisher)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ira View Post
most of our traffic is western (or seems to be, Gigablah or Secret Squirrel, confirm/deny?)
The amount of traffic we get from Japan is almost equal to the traffic from America.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ira View Post
Above all I believe we should be making the information accessible to people (part of why I continue to advocate for using information that may not be exactly what is printed on the album, but is more commonly used.)
I think this is more of a searchability issue. We don't necessarily have to display album titles that are tweaked to be accessible to a Western audience, as long as the Akumajo Dracula albums show up in searches for "Castlevania" and so on. However, I believe this can be mitigated by having the "associated product" field integrated with the multiple language title system and displaying it alongside search results. (That's a job for our future product database).
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  #105  
Old Mar 5, 2010, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigablah View Post
However, I believe this can be mitigated by having the "associated product" field integrated with the multiple language title system and displaying it alongside search results. (That's a job for our future product database).
That would certainly be the best of both worlds. I can get behind this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigablah View Post
The amount of traffic we get from Japan is almost equal to the traffic from America.
Interesting to know.
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  #106  
Old Mar 6, 2010, 02:58 AM
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This is getting complicated...

Quote:
(Myrkul's list)
# Romanized
Romanized album title as displayed in on Front/Obi cover + best translation of the rest of the title
Shouldn't these just be romanized without translating anything? If the display title already has the best translation... And the CAPS, an explicit mention would be good too.

As for whether using localized/romanized in display (when there is no English printed and such), I think this is best set case-by-case using localized only when it's appropriate, nobody will fully agree on certain titles but in like 90% of other albums nobody cares so go with romanized as a base, like it is now more or less (easier standard). When is appropriate it's up to debate (and I do think some albums are better with localized names), but when is *not * and just to clarify I'd go with:
- the localized name isn't well known/minor series/comes too late/too different/not really the same game (Gyakuten Saiban [GBA] -> Ace Attourney [DS])
- the localized name is terrible/dumb/causes problems (Sengoku Basara > Devil Kings, Tales of Eternia > Destiny II)
- the original name is clear enough for the user (Genso Suikoden > Suikoden)
- the localized name changes between games (Yuusha no kuse ni > Holy invasion of provacy Badman > What did I to deserve this, my lord)
- the locallzed and original names clash (some "Akumajo" albums were released as Castlevania in the US and Japan)
- long series with some games not being released in the US (Jinguji Saburo -> Jack Hunter)
And so on (this is just about display, you can always add US names to 3th+ line). No point in forcing all-localized-when-available and not necessarily the US name is more popular to the site's audience IMO. Plus I'd like to think the average user isn't going to flip out if searching for Castlevania shows Akumajo results...


Also about JASCII in original titles like in this entry. I think we should convert them to ASCII, unless there is proof they are used in the publisher's website/printed/etc but this is rare. Maybe somebody knows if they are genuinely used, they all look like regular ASCII to me. To help Japanese users you could make that JASCII would be converted ASCII in searchs, so they actually show results. Ex.- searching for SAMURAI in JASCII gets few results.
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  #107  
Old Mar 6, 2010, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Unless the front or obi indicates otherwise, a main title and a sub title should be separated by a colon ( : )
Do this cover the case where both the album's own name and the more descriptive name (e.g. Game Title + Original Soundtrack) are printed without any separator? Those are the types of albums I'm taking about;

AriaPrythem Skyprythem OriginalSoundTrack
Mstyle Leaf Arrange Sound Track
Sakura Note ~Ima ni Tsunagaru Mirai~ Oto no Okurimono

We may have to follow the spine or the Obi where the separator can be found (like this album), but that's not always the case, and I think there are various ways we normally handle this kind of albums, and which comes first varies by the submitters. Then again, sorry if this is the very case we should use a colon (I just wondered if it was mostly intended for separating the game's subtitle).
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  #108  
Old Mar 8, 2010, 12:37 PM
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I agree that the colon as a separator would look odd in those cases. I think it's intended more for game subtitles. Also, we should use existing separators on the cover or obi.

Also, I apologize for not moving things forward on this topic; I just don't have an answer that I'm satisfied with yet.
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  #109  
Old Mar 8, 2010, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
Also, I apologize for not moving things forward on this topic; I just don't have an answer that I'm satisfied with yet.
Which specific questions are still up for debate? The discussion is pretty verbose right now, so it's a bit hard for me to follow.
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  #110  
Old Mar 12, 2010, 01:10 PM
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I believe you're going a bit far by considering any localized titles as the "best display name", these albums were NOT released under those titles so they should NOT be considered the main display name, just like any translated tracklist should not be considered the main tracklist.

romaji titles really aren't the main titles either but it is romaji and using it would make much more sense than any translation or localization choice

Last edited by lgb; Mar 12, 2010 at 01:14 PM.
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  #111  
Old Mar 12, 2010, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lgb View Post
just like any translated tracklist should not be considered the main tracklist.
But at VGMdb, they usually are, which I am in support of. (Not to be confused with the original tracklist.)

The Original and Romanized album title options are already there. Why you want to eat your cake and have it too, I don't know.

Last edited by Kaleb.G; Mar 12, 2010 at 01:51 PM.
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  #112  
Old Mar 12, 2010, 04:40 PM
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The upcoming improved system will be more language agnostic; it'll allow you to differentiate the original tracktitles from the "default" tracktitles (which just means the translation that displays by default based on the user's language preference). Same with album titles.
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  #113  
Old Mar 12, 2010, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigablah View Post
The upcoming improved system will be more language agnostic; it'll allow you to differentiate the original tracktitles from the "default" tracktitles (which just means the translation that displays by default based on the user's language preference). Same with album titles.
That sounds very good. I'm sure the Japanese visitors would like that (providing they can find the correct options). Are you going to intergrate it with vBulletin's multi-language functionality?
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  #114  
Old Mar 14, 2010, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaleb.G View Post
Why you want to eat your cake and have it too, I don't know.
it's "have your cake and eat it too", and why exactly would you have a cake without eating it? oh wait, the phrase itself is based on weird principles.
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  #115  
Old Mar 14, 2010, 07:56 AM
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Well, you can reword it as "eat your cake without losing it". Semantics schlemantics.
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  #116  
Old Mar 14, 2010, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lgb View Post
it's "have your cake and eat it too", and why exactly would you have a cake without eating it? oh wait, the phrase itself is based on weird principles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Have_on...and_eat_it_too

The way I phrased it is more like the original quote, which actually makes more sense to the casual reader.
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  #117  
Old Apr 16, 2010, 07:26 PM
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I've made a few adjustments to the instructions for title. I think we made good progress on this one, even if we didn't come to any consensus for a rigid set of guidelines defining each line. We attain some flexibility, and can always tighten the rules if it becomes necessary.

Quote:
Album Titles

There is support for multiple titles, separated by carriage returns (Enter key). Only the first line is absolutely required.

line 1: Display Name
  • This is the name that will appear as the title when the album is displayed.
  • Generally, the name for an album comes from the title on the Front or the Spine.
  • If the game has an official english name, you may use it instead of the romanized Japanese name (Art of Fighting instead of Ryouko no Ken).
  • If a game does not have an official English language release, don't submit a literal translation of the game's name. It is fine to translate other parts of the album title (e.g. Ongakushu -> Music Collection).
  • Never abbreviate to OST (unless the title really does include it, but this is rare).
  • All monospace characters should be mapped to the Latin charset equivalent, thus ~JASCII should be ~JASCII. Decorative symbols like ☆ are still permitted.
line 2: Original
  • Use this when the official name differs from the display name.
  • For Eastern releases, this will often require Unicode characters.
line 3: Romanized
  • Direct romanization of the original title. Note, don't include this if it's essentially the same as the Display title.
  • In particular, please do not literally transcribe loan words (i.e., no Orijinaru Saundotorakku)
line 4+: Alternatives
  • Any alternate titles can be added here. For albums whose titles and franchise names are typically rendered in English, Japanese titles may be included here to aid in searches.
Unless the front or obi indicates otherwise, a main title and a sub title should be separated by a colon (, and two titles of equal standing should be separated by a slash (/). A slash (/) may also be used at the submitter's discretion to include the artist's name on an artist album, as Title / Artist.
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  #118  
Old Jul 1, 2010, 03:52 AM
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Btw, if we should refrain from using a translated track name in the note field, isn't it even less preferable to use it as the display title? (unless it's already super popular among Internet and the translation will remain fixed). Now we cover anime, there're lots of J-pop singles to add.
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  #119  
Old Jul 1, 2010, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedille View Post
Btw, if we should refrain from using a translated track name in the note field, isn't it even less preferable to use it as the display title? (unless it's already super popular among Internet and the translation will remain fixed). Now we cover anime, there're lots of J-pop singles to add.
So, I guess what you are asking is this:

We don't literally translate a game's name, because we consider it a sort of proper name. Should we treat the titles of OP and ED themes the same way, and leave them in Romaji (particularly when it shows up in the album title)?

I haven't thought much about this problem, and I know that there are examples of these ways in some of our albums.
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  #120  
Old Jul 1, 2010, 12:22 PM
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Well, Dag suggested we should refrain from writing a translated track name in the note field, because the translation may be changed later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dag View Post
Done. May I suggest/ask (before I go editting stuff), when adding notes we shouldn't put track names, just numbers. Translations will change over time and it's a pain to sync/delete.
So I had to wonder if we shouldn't use a translated track name as the album title.
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