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  #121  
Old Jul 1, 2010, 12:32 PM
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He meant that something like this:
Quote:
04 Katamari on the Swing
Singer: Shigeru Matsuzaki (松崎しげる) Lyrics: NAMCO (Yu Miyake / Yoshihito Yano)
Composer: NAMCO (Yoshihito Yano / Yu Miyake) Arranger: NAMCO (Yu Miyake)
should be written like this:
Quote:
M04
Singer: Shigeru Matsuzaki (松崎しげる) Lyrics: NAMCO (Yu Miyake / Yoshihito Yano)
Composer: NAMCO (Yoshihito Yano / Yu Miyake) Arranger: NAMCO (Yu Miyake)
Because if someone submits a new translation, the track titles in the notes field won't be automatically updated.
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  #122  
Old Jul 1, 2010, 12:58 PM
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Yeah, and doesn't that also mean we shouldn't use a translated track name for the album title because if someone submits a new translation, the track title in the album field won't be automatically updated?
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  #123  
Old Jul 1, 2010, 01:03 PM
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I don't think so, because the title in the album title is still necessary. The title in the notes is not necessary, as something like "M4" is sufficient. Also, if someone uses the titles in the track-by-track credits, a complete translation could require 30-60 title edits in the notes, but the title is just one line, so it's much easier to fix.

I think we can ask people to change the album title if they re-translate the headline track, but asking them to edit all of that repeated information in the notes is a lot of unnecessary work. (Unnecessary because a format like "M4" is more concise and preferable.)

There may be other reasons not to use a translated OP/ED title for the album title, but this isn't a good reason.
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  #124  
Old Jul 1, 2010, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
I don't think so, because the title in the album title is still necessary. The title in the notes is not necessary, as something like "M4" is sufficient.
Well, only one title for the display line is absolutely necessary, and with an average Japanese J-pop single, we already have Japanese and Romaji titles, so I don't think a translated title is necessary (for instance, nobody has added "Isn't it Wonderful?" to this album yet, even though it's our current translation).

But yeah, I don't intend to argue about it at all. In fact, I've also sometimes used translated titles for the display line, but just wanted to know if that policy on the note field would also apply to the title field. Sorry for the confusion.
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  #125  
Old Jul 1, 2010, 02:37 PM
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It's ok. The notes field thing is really to help with maintainability. It's more of a guideline than a policy I think.
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  #126  
Old Jul 1, 2010, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
We don't literally translate a game's name, because we consider it a sort of proper name. Should we treat the titles of OP and ED themes the same way, and leave them in Romaji (particularly when it shows up in the album title)?
I think this is an important point as well; I think it's better to refrain from translating titles of pop songs (just like we don't translate the names of groups) based on the precedent set in the mainstream music industry, and the confusion it could cause. I don't really see any benefits with doing it either.

Imagine if everyone referred to 'Yellow Submarine' by the equivalent words in their own language.
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  #127  
Old Jul 1, 2010, 02:55 PM
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That's a pretty big change though, because it amounts to leaving most vocals in romaji.
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  #128  
Old Jul 1, 2010, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
That's a pretty big change though, because it amounts to leaving most vocals in romaji.
I think it would be mostly important for album titles, so it would affect j-pop singles mostly. If we have an English translated tracklist I guess it could be reasonable to translated even such titles, even if it sounds and seems a bit awkward to me.
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  #129  
Old Jul 2, 2010, 01:08 AM
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For singles in album titles I'd prefer them in romaji, it's easy to mistranslate and these names spread fast and never leave. Most sites/shops will have romaji so I'd just go along. We don't use "Demon(Devil? Satan's?) Castle Dracula" anyway.

However I dislike romaji in English tracklists, we have 'romaji' tracklists for that. If we are going to translate JP titles (meanings), we should be consistent without selective "translate this, but not that".
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  #130  
Old Jul 17, 2010, 02:26 PM
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Btw....

Based on the past discussion, how the album title of Ar Tonelico series should be? For Castlevania, the series where subtitles virtually serve as the main titles of each game, I remember we basically decided to remove fan translations. While there are still some albums with translated subtitles, is it no longer eligible to translate them?

For this album, I guess we have roughly three options;
Quote:
Display: Ar tonelico 2 ~Sekai ni Hibiku Shoujotachi no Metafalica~ Original Soundtrack
Original: アルトネリコ2 世界に響く少女たちの創造詩 オリジナルサウンドトラック
Alternate: Ar tonelico II: Melody of Metafalica Original Soundtrack
Or
Quote:
Display: Ar tonelico II ~The Girls' Metafalica that Echoes to the World~ Original Soundtrack
Original: アルトネリコ2 世界に響く少女たちの創造詩 オリジナルサウンドトラック
Romaji: Ar tonelico 2 ~Sekai ni Hibiku Shoujotachi no Metafalica~ Original Soundtrack
Alternate: Ar tonelico II: Melody of Metafalica Original Soundtrack
Or
Quote:
Display: Ar tonelico II: Melody of Metafalica Original Soundtrack
Original: アルトネリコ2 世界に響く少女たちの創造詩 オリジナルサウンドトラック
Romaji: Ar tonelico 2 ~Sekai ni Hibiku Shoujotachi no Metafalica~ Original Soundtrack
Alternate: Ar tonelico II ~The Girls' Metafalica that Echoes to the World~ Original Soundtrack
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  #131  
Old Jul 18, 2010, 01:21 PM
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These are some convoluted subtitles... I'd leave them untouched for now, but prefer 1. 3 is ok but might be confusing (there are US albums with that name)
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  #132  
Old Jul 19, 2010, 06:17 AM
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So, is 'The Girls' Metafalica that Echoes to the World' some kind of fan translation? It's not even that great of a translation. Too clunky in English.

I'd go with 1.
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  #133  
Old Jul 19, 2010, 07:42 AM
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I am for the 1st choice too.
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  #134  
Old Jul 19, 2010, 09:30 AM
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Same as with Castlevania albums, the display title should mirror the region of release. So for Japanese releases I agree option 1 is the best choice.
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  #135  
Old Jul 19, 2010, 06:58 PM
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Thanks for feedbacks, so these fan translations should be removed, but is this decision applicable to all the albums on this database, rather than specific to Ar tonelico? Shouldn't we translate a game's subtitle by ourselves and only when it's officially used somewhere (like "Nocturne in The Moonlight") could we use it as the alternate title? I remember we nearly decided the same thing in the Castlevania discussion, but since then I've sometimes seen what looked like a fan translation being added, so I'm not sure what's our policy is right now.

Also, when we want to add the alternate title to the album, the 3rd line of which is blank, should we leave the 3rd line and use the 4th? Or can we add the alternate title to the 3rd line instead? I've noticed it differs in submitters (I think SS mostly does the former).

Quote:
Display: Ar tonelico 2 ~Sekai ni Hibiku Shoujotachi no Metafalica~ Original Soundtrack
Original: アルトネリコ2 世界に響く少女たちの創造詩 オリジナルサウンドトラック
Romaji: (Blank)
Alternate: Ar tonelico II: Melody of Metafalica Original Soundtrack
Or
Quote:
Display: Ar tonelico 2 ~Sekai ni Hibiku Shoujotachi no Metafalica~ Original Soundtrack
Original: アルトネリコ2 世界に響く少女たちの創造詩 オリジナルサウンドトラック
Romaji (Alternate): Ar tonelico II: Melody of Metafalica Original Soundtrack
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  #136  
Old Jul 19, 2010, 07:12 PM
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Always put the alternates in the 4th line, even if it means leaving the 3rd line blank, so that the alternate title isn't displayed when the Title Displays are in Romaji mode.

If you want to move through and start removing the fan translations, I think it's a good idea, but the best thing to do would be to discuss them each individually. I'm never completely sure whether some translations have official sources somewhere that I have overlooked. Also, I really want to start officially encouraging submitters to post some kind of rationale whenever they alter data submitted by somebody else (and in theory accepted by the community).
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  #137  
Old Jul 20, 2010, 07:17 AM
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Sure, I'll post a question in the thread before removal (currently the only albums I target at are some of recent Mega Man albums, though).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
Also, I really want to start officially encouraging submitters to post some kind of rationale whenever they alter data submitted by somebody else (and in theory accepted by the community).
Yeah, it's definitely helpful.
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  #138  
Old Dec 27, 2010, 06:52 AM
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I wonder if we could get back into the debate ..
And include animation now.

I've compiled another list of what i (personally) like the most, and have been nearly approved by everyone in the above posts..
But i defenitely want to debate and "set in stone" this guideline.

the display title should mirror the region of release
The most important debate here, is about using or not a Romanized title for a game or animation product that have been localized but that is not printed anywhere on the package.
I am clearly against using English localized titles because i think we should always try to see the original region of the release.
I still don't understand why are we using "Art of Fighting" as a display and not Ryuuko no Ken, while we use "Garou Densetsu" and not "Fatal Fury".. we'r not consistent here.

Also what should be clearly stated is.. what to choose as display if both English and Romanized titles are printed on covers but differs.


line 1: Display Name

[English Titles]
01. English album title that appears on Front/Obi cover + best translation of the rest of the title
02. English album title that appears on the rest of the package (back, spine..) + best translation of the rest of the title
03. English album title that is used on publisher/distributer websites + best translation of the rest of the title
[Non-English & Non-Asians Titles]
04. Album name exactly as it appears on Front/Obi cover [ex: Aus dem Original Soundtrack des Computerspiels Sternenschweif]
05. Album name exactly as it appears on the rest of the package (back, spine..)
[Asian Titles]
06. Romanized album title as displayed in on Front/Obi cover + best translation of the rest of the title
07. Romanized title that appears on the rest of the package (back, spine..) + best translation of the rest of the title
08. Romanized album title used on publisher/distributer websites + best translation of the rest of the title
09. Official romanization of Asian titles + best translation of the rest of the title [doesn't have to conform to VGMdb's romanization scheme]
10. Best full romanization of Asian titles if one is not available + best translation of the rest of the title [conforms to VGMdb's romanization scheme]


line 2: Original

1. Album name exactly as it appears on Front/Obi cover (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank)
2. Album name exactly as it appears on the rest of the package (back, spine..) (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank)
3. If everything is English, album title as it appears on Front/Obi cover with no correction (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank)


line 3: Romanized

1. Romanized album title as displayed in on Front/Obi cover + best translation of the rest of the title (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank)
2. Romanized title used anywhere in the album package + best translation of the rest of the title (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank)
3. Romanized album title used on publisher/distributer websites + best translation of the rest of the title (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank)
4. Official romanization of Asian titles + best translation of the rest of the title (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank) [doesn't have to conform to VGMdb's romanization scheme].
5. Best full romanization of Asian titles if one is not available + best translation of the rest of the title (unless this is the same as the Display title, in that case leave blank) [conforms to VGMdb's romanization scheme].


line 4: Alternate

1. English album title used in other part of the package + best translation of the rest of the title (skip that unless there is any)
2. English album title used on publisher/distributer websites + best translation of the rest of the title. (skip that unless there is any or if it is the same as the Display title)
3. English game/anime title + best translation of the rest of the title (skip that unless there is any or if it is the same as the Display title)
4. English game/anime title + best translation of the rest of the title (if the game/anime has no official English localization but an English title was used in the game/anime, skip that unless there is any or if it is the same as the Display title)
5. Fan translation of game/anime title + best translation of the rest of the title, for those albums for which it is appropriate (skip that unless there is any)
6. Japanese official title for a Japanese release with only English titles on the album. (for searchability)

Last edited by Myrkul; Dec 27, 2010 at 06:54 AM.
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  #139  
Old Dec 27, 2010, 11:13 AM
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"+ best translation" <-- like translating ongakushuu into music collection? (for instance)
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  #140  
Old Dec 27, 2010, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dag View Post
...

However I dislike romaji in English tracklists, we have 'romaji' tracklists for that. If we are going to translate JP titles (meanings), we should be consistent without selective "translate this, but not that".
but if there are songs like tv size/full size/etc.?
you should translate regardless?

(personally, I never translate songs)
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  #141  
Old Dec 30, 2010, 03:05 AM
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^^ Well, do what you think it's best as the translator, no hard rules here.

I always translate everything, to me English tracklist should give English meaning for people that don't understand Japanese. All tracks are equal to me.
(and for the record I used to leave songs untranslated)

Ongakushuu into music collection, yeah (words that aren't part of the "product" name).
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  #142  
Old Apr 27, 2011, 09:36 AM
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One of my submissions was rejected and first of all I would like to refer to this post http://vgmdb.net/forums/showpost.php...&postcount=130 , I would like to express that major retailers as CD Japan or Play-Asia have official, alternative or literal translations for titles. As a customer I would like to see the same exact title names as found there right here at VGMDB. It makes it easier for fans to find out their owned albums.

So regarding this album http://vgmdb.net/album/4595 , "Ar tonelico II: Sekai ni Hibiku Shoujotachi no Metafalica Original Soundtrack" . I would consider that we should also add the "Ar Tonelico 2 Sekai Ni Hibiku Shojo Tachi No Sozoshi Original Soundtrack" as an alternative title name as you can see right here http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-...n-70-26f0.html and here http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=KDSD-10027 .
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  #143  
Old Apr 27, 2011, 09:58 AM
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It's also a matter of whether we should seek out and spread what's correct to other sites, or accept common mistakes. Reading 創造詩 as Sozoshi is wrong, as evidenced by the title logo, and I think if the difference is either Sozoshi or Metafalica, I suppose it doesn't bother customers that much. Ar tonelico II is less problematic, compared to some other games a bit too commonly recognized with a fan translation.

I think the best place to put unofficial translation /alternate reading is a brief introduction section in the product pages, as Wikipedia's game articles often inform how the game is literally translated while how officially it is.
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  #144  
Old Apr 27, 2011, 10:54 AM
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The title name in there is there for a reason, professional people work there 24/7. They may get the title name from official sources or professional translators as being a worldwide online shop / distributor. I think is a matter of taking it as a reference of that title name and place it as an alternative title, like I said that will help people in searches.
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  #145  
Old Apr 27, 2011, 11:13 AM
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We've made the decision to be a leader in presenting titles as correctly as we can according to our guidelines. We're not going to add incorrect titles to enhance searchability.
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  #146  
Old Apr 27, 2011, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metroid View Post
The title name in there is there for a reason, professional people work there 24/7.
Honestly, I seriously doubt that. IMHO the staff here at VGMdb has way more expertise in the VGM area than any of the people working at Play-Asia and CDJapan.

The main interest of resellers / distributors is to sell their stock and it's not to provide the most accurate information about the items they sell.
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  #147  
Old Apr 27, 2011, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
We've made the decision to be a leader in presenting titles as correctly as we can according to our guidelines. We're not going to add incorrect titles to enhance searchability.
This could be done by redirecting to the album. The information does not need to be visible there. Anyway, I'm asking to consider what is there and it should be used to help the search for the title.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidAcid View Post
Honestly, I seriously doubt that. IMHO the staff here at VGMdb has way more expertise in the VGM area than any of the people working at Play-Asia and CDJapan.
When they get the booklet right? Because that is the only way they can truly see if the information is accurate.

Quote:
The main interest of resellers / distributors is to sell their stock and it's not to provide the most accurate information about the items they sell.
The main information concerning what they mainly do is accurate. They could be sued otherwise. I would be the first one to sue them if I see catalogue number 1111, order it and then they sent me the item catalogue number 2222.
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  #148  
Old Apr 27, 2011, 01:43 PM
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As an aside, any "customer" coming here to look for their album to either add to their collection, research for track titles or anything else will likely just search by catalog number. That is the universally accepted way to find Japanese releases pretty much anywhere and that's understood by even the newest people to this as a hobby.
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  #149  
Old Apr 27, 2011, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dancey View Post
As an aside, any "customer" coming here to look for their album to either add to their collection, research for track titles or anything else will likely just search by catalog number. That is the universally accepted way to find Japanese releases pretty much anywhere and that's understood by even the newest people to this as a hobby.
Well concerning that album, first thing I would search would be the word "Sozoshi". I would likely to be redirected straight to the album, but yeah if it's a hobby then catalogue number would be the first choice, average users will most likely search for the title first.
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  #150  
Old Apr 27, 2011, 02:06 PM
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Searching albums by romaji would not be the best way here. In this case, it could be also "Souzoushi" or such. Personally, I'm pretty fond of searching albums by kanji/kana, since it's not discarded with only one character, but I know I'm at the minority side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metroid View Post
The main information concerning what they mainly do is accurate.
Both PlayAsia and CD Japan were wrong with the romanization of the very album we're talking about, although I do think retails are closer to the second source and generally trust them.
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