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  #1  
Old Sep 27, 2012, 07:54 PM
Xenofan 29A Xenofan 29A is offline
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Default Atonality in Video Game Music

Atonality is often used negatively, and in fact the term was invented in criticism as a derogatory one. People point to the music of modernist composers such as Schoenberg, Boulez, and Stockhausen and think that it's a kind of academic exercise or hoax, created with an anti-musical mindset divorced from expression or color. Some people use it as a synonym for "dissonant", which is not, strictly speaking, terribly accurate, although understandable. There is a certain level of dissonance in all music, but the less predictable it is, the more dissonant it seems to the ear, as one expects to hear typical resolutions to tonal "conflicts". The violent reaction among many to certain kinds of atonal music has led to their being used in movie scores to reflect danger or horror, and this usage has been passed on into video game scores as well, in games like Bioshock or Dead Space.

Exhibit No. 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-GzXp-Fzv4

Inspired by the style of: [Not for the faint of heart]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzOb3UhPmig

That's not what I'm interested in. Frankly, Penderecki-lite has become so routine in certain contexts that it has become predictable and not terribly creative, artistically.

I'm far more interested in creative uses of ambivalent, denied, or effectively eliminated tonal centers, a process which actually began far earlier than the 20th century, and reached an early apex in Impressionism, the odd modal inflections of which did not sit well with early audiences.

Exhibit No. 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5VZWMnY-BM

Inspired by:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y90wSPBUjjg

And as much as people may denigrate Schoenberg and the "Second Viennese School", he was a great composer and his twelve-tone method far less restrictive or mechanical than it has been made out to be by certain of his critics. And it too has had undeniable influence on video game music.

Exhibit No. 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM_MuYHzLr4

Yes, that opening line is a 12-tone theme, using all of the notes of the chromatic scale.

Inspired by:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mrhmaHv4ZQ

The following Dragon Quest example is even more explicitly Schoenbergian:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3rP7Hj4wuI

Is anyone else interested in this topic as much as I am?

Last edited by Xenofan 29A; Sep 27, 2012 at 07:57 PM.
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  #2  
Old Sep 27, 2012, 09:28 PM
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I'm interested. I like some abstract music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC0cvwnG0Ik
Crazy Bus Title Screen Music

That's probably the wildest music in a game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-1qkLltrMQ
Ganado 1 [Resident Evil 4]

I always found this music to be very unmusical. Now that I'm listening to it again it sounds cool. It's probably cause I've been listening to Silent Hill music non-stop.

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it's heavily inspired by the super mechanical type of music from things like say Eraserhead or Jacob's Ladder
to establish a feeling of oppression and inevitable hopelessness
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Old Sep 27, 2012, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Vert1 View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-1qkLltrMQ
Ganado 1 [Resident Evil 4]

I always found this music to be very unmusical. Now that I'm listening to it again it sounds cool. It's probably cause I've been listening to Silent Hill music non-stop.
Reminds me alot of the stuff from Yume Nikki and .flow. Good stuff.
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 08:55 AM
Xenofan 29A Xenofan 29A is offline
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Originally Posted by Vert1 View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC0cvwnG0Ik
Crazy Bus Title Screen Music

That's probably the wildest music in a game.
I had thought that might come up at some point...I don't know, that sounds like random notes to me, although I'll admit to have enjoyed the massively slowed down version floating around on Youtube for at least a little bit.

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Originally Posted by Vert1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-1qkLltrMQ
Ganado 1 [Resident Evil 4]

I always found this music to be very unmusical. Now that I'm listening to it again it sounds cool. It's probably cause I've been listening to Silent Hill music non-stop.
Industrial music is usually atonal, just as any piece created completely with (unpitched) percussion and/or sound effects is atonal, but that's a little different from what I was referring to above. There is plenty of atonal music in Silent Hill, though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_JhEhC7AI0
The chord progression just "floats" because it doesn't lead from one chord to the next in the normal manner. It could actually stop in any number of places other than the starting chord.

Last edited by Xenofan 29A; Sep 28, 2012 at 09:38 AM.
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 01:06 PM
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I could post vaguely atonal/dissonant songs I can think of, boss themes mainly, not symphonic though, if that's what you're asking for.

As for Stockhausen et al, they worked with sound more, it isn't a hoax or an anti-musical mindset or lack of color or whatever else, it just isn't in the domain of tuned/pitched music for the most part. It's a different thing - academic, sure, though everything is academic to begin with. I wouldn't listen to it either but I'm not gonna deny its legitimacy.
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 01:13 PM
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Xanadu Next - The Eternal Maze

One of my favourite dungeon themes, although not too sure if atonal. Is it?
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 01:21 PM
Xenofan 29A Xenofan 29A is offline
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Originally Posted by Blitz Lunar View Post
I could post vaguely atonal/dissonant songs I can think of, boss themes mainly, not symphonic though, if that's what you're asking for.
No, not at all. That's just what I'm familiar with, that's all. I'm interested in all kinds of atonal music. (And all kinds of music, for that matter.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitz Lunar
As for Stockhausen et al, they worked with sound more, it isn't a hoax or an anti-musical mindset or lack of color or whatever else, it just isn't in the domain of tuned/pitched music for the most part. It's a different thing - academic, sure, though everything is academic to begin with. I wouldn't listen to it either but I'm not gonna deny its legitimacy.
Stockhausen's not my thing either. I do enjoy bits of Varese, but Stockhausen, Cage, and Xenakis are too far out for my taste.

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Originally Posted by jdkluv
One of my favourite dungeon themes, although not too sure if atonal. Is it?
Sounds pretty clearly tonal to me, though with a few odd twists that are more passing notes than anything else. Also, the instrumentation is very abnormal.
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Xenofan 29A View Post
Sounds pretty clearly tonal to me, though with a few odd twists that are more passing notes than anything else. Also, the instrumentation is very abnormal.
I see. I've heard it being referred to as atonal, but probably because of the mood of the music, rather than the actual definition.
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 01:40 PM
Xenofan 29A Xenofan 29A is offline
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I see. I've heard it being referred to as atonal, but probably because of the mood of the music, rather than the actual definition.
That happens a lot. People often use atonal when they simply mean dissonant or unsettling, or even simply "something I don't like". It doesn't help that the definition of "tonality" is used to mean several things as well.
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Old Sep 29, 2012, 12:30 PM
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Alright here's some I can think of. They might not be completely atonal/they may have tonal centres but they're generally chromatic and wtf-y anyway.

Alien Soldier~Blacksheep http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOWmV2gcNzI
Alien Soldier~Lurk!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCeyxOUX4oE
probably other Alien Soldier as well.
Seiken Densetsu 3~Black Soup http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0Vf4kVvE2Y
Super Bomberman 2~Bomber Battle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Diliy2Lxbik
Jewel Master~Demon King http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhY7Y058YTc
Shining Wisdom~Distorted Reality http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k9j-N1t_i0
Secret of Mana~Danger (probably obvious!) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5FR_i-EbDc
Ogre Battle~Dark Matter http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5m-9cm4UB8
E.V.O~Unnatural Threat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQZ8NgsOvgM
Granhistoria~The Machine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPwGrfq5wzk

Need moar boss themes like these. Dunno if they truly qualify as atonal but it's more or less my understanding of the term. See what you think.
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  #11  
Old Sep 29, 2012, 02:37 PM
Xenofan 29A Xenofan 29A is offline
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Many of them emphasize certain pitches (by staying on a certain bass note, for instance), but that doesn't in and of itself establish tonality. All of your examples (which are great by the way) have very overt chromaticisms, akin to fusion or prog (not surprising given that half of them are Takenouchi, and another by Matsuo). I don't know if they'd qualify as "atonal" under stricter definitions than mine, but they're certainly not "tonal" in the normal sense. Thanks for the reply!
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Old Sep 30, 2012, 02:05 AM
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Yeah there's a lot of sticking on bass notes, and semitonal transpositions/chromatic movement, so it definitely doesn't stay in any one place and it probably is impossible to really say these songs are in a specific key signature. I guess it's straddling the line between atonal and tonal. I might not have heard anything that's definitively called atonal so I might not know what to look for, but if there is anything more atonal in the stricter sense I'd be interested in hearing it. Also need to find more composers who write this kind of thing... all the composers listed (Takenouchi, Matsuo, Fukuda, Hanzawa) specialise in this kind of thing.

Here's a couple of others
Emerald Dragon~Boss Battle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hX7uKKS2ipQ
Emerald Dragon~Dungeon Battle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z47HCppRp8A
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  #13  
Old Sep 30, 2012, 11:04 AM
Xenofan 29A Xenofan 29A is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitz Lunar View Post
Yeah there's a lot of sticking on bass notes, and semitonal transpositions/chromatic movement, so it definitely doesn't stay in any one place and it probably is impossible to really say these songs are in a specific key signature. I guess it's straddling the line between atonal and tonal. I might not have heard anything that's definitively called atonal so I might not know what to look for, but if there is anything more atonal in the stricter sense I'd be interested in hearing it. Also need to find more composers who write this kind of thing... all the composers listed (Takenouchi, Matsuo, Fukuda, Hanzawa) specialise in this kind of thing.
In my mind, rather than a strict line between the two, there's a scale, and there's very little music written nowadays that doesn't subvert traditional, function-based tonality in some way or other (pop and rock contain lots of unresolved non-chord tones, for instance). Add to that the fact that writing "pure" atonality would require that one constantly use the entire chromatic scale, without emphasizing any pitch, and you will find that there is almost nothing that has been written that fits that extreme end of the spectrum. I, personally, can hear most "atonal" music leaning towards one pitch or another (if not a "key"), and I think that most composers would as well, at least subconsciously.

I can't find a Youtube link to them, but the "Impulsive Mind" tracks on Junya Nakano's Another Mind Soundtrack (all based on the same theme) are about as purely atonal as you can get. Some of the stuff in Dewprism and FFX he wrote is also atonal.

Also, some of Motoi Sakuraba's work is pretty close, at least.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PnVekEXJfk
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  #14  
Old Sep 30, 2012, 11:56 AM
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I think this fits the criteria
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQxFmgSt18I
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  #15  
Old Sep 30, 2012, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenofan 29A View Post
I can't find a Youtube link to them, but the "Impulsive Mind" tracks on Junya Nakano's Another Mind Soundtrack (all based on the same theme) are about as purely atonal as you can get.
So it can be (always is?) melodic but the melodic development is kind of non-obvious? Those "Impulsive Mind" tracks sound interesting, very melodic and not at all awkward (purely random notes often sound awkward to me), kind of like an upbeat set up with a creepy twist.

Personally I like the melodic development into broken chords in Valkyrie Profile 2's Divine View.

Honestly not sure about the definition of "atonal" myself, I think plenty people may mistake perfectly tonal compositions being atonal due to them being played using atonal instruments (some ethnic instruments, depitched rock organs, anything "unpitched" sounding like drums, bells, gongs, "industrial sound" effects etc. etc.).

Edit: Thanks for getting me to listen to Nakano's Another Mind soundtrack again, such a great one. ^^

Last edited by Datschge; Sep 30, 2012 at 05:23 PM.
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Old Sep 30, 2012, 08:43 PM
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What's this? No Rule of Rose in this thread?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt8eXsINH6I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcG2n...feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPGBB...1968E0CB416AD5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIrY2...1968E0CB416AD5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK-g-...eature=related


Bonus vids
Here's some Bartok for warm fuzzy feelings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNw_2auj1RQ

And some Stravinsky for pleasurable listening
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clcXXYLWSeQ

Had to analyze the last two pieces for class. But what's really fun to listen to is much of Ives...Love that guy.


For anyone who wants to practice their listening skills for kicks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnl9Wo3UexU


See if you can pick up a theme and run with it. It's like trying to pick out a conversation across the middle of a noisy room.
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Old Oct 1, 2012, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Txai View Post
I think this fits the criteria
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQxFmgSt18I
Great song. It's pretty tonal at the start, sticks in A to begin with then moves to Bb... the second section is full of transposy fun though
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Old Oct 1, 2012, 04:52 PM
Xenofan 29A Xenofan 29A is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhythmroo View Post
These remind me of Berg's lyric suite a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhythmroo
This is more like post-WWII avant garde.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhythmroo
This one reminds me of the Shadow Hearts insanity themes, like some of the more extreme kinds of electronic music out there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhythmroo
Bonus vids
Here's some Bartok for warm fuzzy feelings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNw_2auj1RQ
It's a really insane chromatic canon, right? I've seen the score. Great piece.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhythmroo
And some Stravinsky for pleasurable listening
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clcXXYLWSeQp
Oh you jest. Of Stravinsky's late period works (I'm a fan of anything Stravinsky), I'm particularly fond of Threni (which has yet to receive as good a recording as it deserves) and these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImuHgaS6TC0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQQ90PqlFWA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhythmroo
For anyone who wants to practice their listening skills for kicks:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnl9Wo3UexU


See if you can pick up a theme and run with it. It's like trying to pick out a conversation across the middle of a noisy room.
Ives was great. Probably my favorite American composer (among classical composers at least).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Datschge
So it can be (always is?) melodic but the melodic development is kind of non-obvious? Those "Impulsive Mind" tracks sound interesting, very melodic and not at all awkward (purely random notes often sound awkward to me), kind of like an upbeat set up with a creepy twist.
Atonality is associated with density and unpredictability, but that's not necessary. To be called atonal, music simply needs to avoid establishing a key center. And randomness has nothing to do with it. On the one hand, Schoenberg, Webern, and Boulez are notorious for their meticulous sense of order (which has led to criticisms like Ravel's "That is not of music, but of the laboratory"), and on the other you can bang around randomly on a keyboard, and it might come out sounding tonal just because you're emphasizing the white keys, and your ear will hear it tending towards C major or A minor (actually A aeolian).

In the case of the "Impulsive Mind" tracks, they start off with a relatively regular-sounding harmony, but nothing that follows grounds it as tonal center, and you could end the track just about anywhere without it seeming arbitrary, as it inevitably would in a tonal composition. As for "melodic", people generally hear things as melodic if they move primarily by step (up and down the scale) or by "perfect" fourths, fifths, and octaves. Sevenths or intervals larger than an octave are always striking in effect, but if used frequently, they can be hard to follow, especially in a dense polyphonic texture.
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Old Oct 1, 2012, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenofan 29A View Post
These remind me of Berg's lyric suite a bit.

Ives was great. Probably my favorite American composer (among classical composers at least).
Yeah, and to think he came after the 2nd New England school? I did an independent study for Music in American from 1800-1920s, ending on Ives--loved all of it, of course --and it was Ives that ended up as my final's paper focus, along with Arthur Foote and George Chadwick. Love the Ives <3

Here's some more stuff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O35Pt...feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSp61...feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppqjB...feature=relmfu (Intro stuff really)
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Old Oct 12, 2012, 08:16 PM
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Certain tracks from Drakengard might qualify.

"Twilight", from FFX?
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Old Oct 13, 2012, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhythmroo View Post
Yeah, and to think he came after the 2nd New England school? I did an independent study for Music in American from 1800-1920s, ending on Ives--loved all of it, of course --and it was Ives that ended up as my final's paper focus, along with Arthur Foote and George Chadwick. Love the Ives <3
Yep, America went from its best composers being people like MacDowell and Beach to having a real innovator in a single generation. Pretty amazing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by OpaOpa
"Twilight", from FFX?
Definitely. No tonal center that I've ever heard in that one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OpaOpa
Certain tracks from Drakengard might qualify.
Yeah, but that's because of the process they used. None of the pieces they sampled from were atonal (as I remember). Still, that's also a good choice.
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Old Oct 13, 2012, 09:28 AM
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Now that Rule of Rose is mentioned, Yutaka Minobe in general seems to be fond of atonality, judging by his various event themes in Sega games, although I'm not overly familiar with his works.
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Old Oct 13, 2012, 09:57 AM
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Came in here about to post some Junya Nakano, but I see he's already been covered. Junko Tamiya has a few atonal pieces sprinkled throughout her soundtracks. It's hard to find links on youtube.

Strider - Introduction 1 & 2
Strider - Capture (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUMSR...RzUbH0I#t=155s)
Bionic Commando - Introduction Part B
A few tracks in Street Fighter 2010: The Final Fight

Streets of Rage III - Bad Ending (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikFFaieNr1o)
Streets of Rage III - Fateful Meeting (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH831upULq0)
Streets of Rage III - Kama de Coco (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cge_M7Iss5I)
And I guess most of Koshiro's SoRIII tracks in general, but mostly because of the experimental nature and use of automated sequencing

I don't know, would this be considered atonal?
Castlevania: Harmony Of Dissonance - Luminous Caverns (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-qHCZHDBh4) I have no idea what I would base the key off of. Perhaps the boss theme, too. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-mOTc_O0aY)
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Old Oct 13, 2012, 02:24 PM
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Good call on CV: HoD. I think several other of its tracks could be included as well, although none of them exceed the "uhhhh" factor of the boss theme.

SoR3 is such a weird soundtrack -- at the very least because, afaik (noting that Kawashima had a hand), Koshiro's done nothing else like it.
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Old Oct 31, 2012, 07:53 PM
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Abyss, from Final Fantasy XII.
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Old Oct 31, 2012, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpaOpa View Post
SoR3 is such a weird soundtrack -- at the very least because, afaik (noting that Kawashima had a hand), Koshiro's done nothing else like it.
He used a similar automatic sequencing technique on Beyond Oasis and a few other soundtracks around that time period. Some of the tracks on Vatla sound like they came straight out of SoR3.
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Old Feb 22, 2017, 03:33 PM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qpUKUL02P8
The Pink Panther Passport To Peril - Camp Chilly Wa-Wa (Day 4)

Does that count? It is disturbing enough.
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