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  #31  
Old May 25, 2010, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dag View Post
Could you elaborate what you mean? I see it used when tracks are called "x's remix", even if they could be classified as arrange anyway (ex). Also traditionally in the west "remix" is used like "arrange" is in the east (tweaked track based on another). I don't really get the distinction.
The case between a "remix" and an "arrangement" I've learned over the years is rather subjective. To me a remix samples from the original source, while an arrangement is sort of like a "revised" version of the original (and by that I mean different instrumentation and such).
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  #32  
Old May 30, 2010, 12:32 PM
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Getting back to refining our classifications, here's what I think we've got so far.

Quote:
Original Soundtrack - Music that accompanies some audio, visual, or printed work.
Arrangement -
Vocal - Any music that includes vocals
Drama - This covers stories, monologues, and radio shows where everyone is in character
Live Event - Music recorded at a live event
Remix - A derived work that uses samples of the original
Original Work - Music that has no connection to any of VGMdb's categories
Talk- This should only be used for tracks where the actors or composers are speaking, but are not in character
Remaster -
Image / Prototype - Music that is related to any of VGMdb's categories, but was not used in it. Image albums and image songs qualify.
Licensed -
Unused - (maybe this should be incorporated into Image/Prototype somehow)
Sound Effect - Also includes voice samples
Silence -
Data -
Video -
I'm not so sure about keeping "Licensed." I know it is meant to cover vocals that also appear on artist albums, but is this the proper term for that kind of arrangement? Is a license signed in this case? What about other cases for certain VGM compostions?

I still need to work on instructive text for the rest of these.
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  #33  
Old May 30, 2010, 01:56 PM
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What will we have to choose .. let say if an album have 1 track of each of these classifications above?
All of them?

In other words: how many tracks of each classifications needs to be on the album to make a clear choice ?

This is probably a very good idea for track by track details.. but it's probably too much for a "general classification".
Voice Samples, and often vocals (OP & ED) are part of the "original soundtrack" of one game most of the time.
I am also chocked to have to choose "Silence" as a classification because there's 1 track of silence before an hidden track.
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  #34  
Old May 31, 2010, 01:50 AM
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I think there's still some confusion about how to use the classifications. If we should continue to use a general, one per album, classification based on "what kind of album it is", or if we should add them based on each individual track? I'm seeing both systems used.
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  #35  
Old May 31, 2010, 03:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
Original Work - Music that is not part of a soundtrack.
Since the same is also true of "Arrangement", perhaps we should add one more attribute such as 'having no connection to products we cover' (it's game, anime or something oriented from either). The definition of "Arrangement" may not be easy, but one point I'd want to see emphasized is that a piece of music that is an arrangement of something should still be considered "Original Soundtrack" as long as it's used in the game. I think this policy is consistent with the way we've classified soundtracks like Dissidia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
Drama - Includes monologues and dialogues
Talk- Interview or discussion with real people
Like the definition you gave a little while ago, I think it'd be better to emphasize that the biggest difference is whether people in character or not.
Quote:
Classification
Talk - This should only be used for tracks where the actors or composers are speaking, but are not in character.
Drama - This covers stories, monologues, and radio shows where everyone is in character.
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  #36  
Old May 31, 2010, 03:06 AM
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I don't like using one classification. If anything, classify each track or at least add all classifications that apply to the tracks on an album. In my opinion the classification that decides color coding and similar should be the one featured on the most tracks.

The only issue I can see if there's a CD with each sound fx as a separate 0:01 track. That'd cause some issues
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  #37  
Old May 31, 2010, 03:22 AM
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Thanks, I forgot I had already defined Talk and Drama.

Classification is done on a track basis, so if the album contains one drama track, then we include Drama in the classifications.

The way we formerly used this field was inconsistent. While we only used vocal for "Vocal Albums", we marked an album as Arrange even if it only had one arrangement. Classifying the album based on any track returns us to consistency.

As for Silence, yeah maybe we should drop that one. It's only specific to a subset of media (CDs and DVDs).
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  #38  
Old May 31, 2010, 10:17 AM
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I think the Licensed classification could be applied to songs that weren't composed especially for the games. But if you think that this classification may be confused with covers of pop songs, like in GuitarFreak series, I have no objection if you prefer to exclude it. I don't think the Licensed classification is essential, as well as Silence.
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  #39  
Old May 31, 2010, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrkul View Post
This is probably a very good idea for track by track details.. but it's probably too much for a "general classification".
I agree, it ends up telling us less about an album instead of more.
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  #40  
Old May 31, 2010, 06:28 PM
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Well, the alternative is to pick one classification per album, but which would you pick for an album that has one original disc and one arranged disc?
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  #41  
Old May 31, 2010, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
Well, the alternative is to pick one classification per album, but which would you pick for an album that has one original disc and one arranged disc?
That seems like a false dilemma, since we already can specify separate classifications for each media associated with an album. So, we could assign 1 per disc. That said, I see no reason we can't have separate criteria for certain classifications (as we do now.)
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  #42  
Old Jun 1, 2010, 03:04 AM
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Oh, so you mean a separate criteria for Vocal, namely that on a soundtrack, we only use it for vocals that aren't OP/ED/IMage. Conversely for albums that are entirely vocal, use "Vocal" even if all tracks are OP/EDs from various sources.
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  #43  
Old Jun 1, 2010, 06:38 AM
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I don't mind selecting as many classifications as possible, on the condition that we can ultimately present the classification ratio, but I do think there are some cases where a single classification works more (a J-pop, a live event CD or a best of/a compilation album).

Another concern about "Vocal" is when to select it, in the first place. Should more classical chorus works (OWA) be included? Do we have to select "Vocal" if Haruka Shimotuki is credited, even when her voice only briefly appears in the harmony of a few bars? Without real vocalists, I think Miku Hatsune counts as Vocal, but other software such as QLSC also can sing the words. ...I think we may need to narrow down the definition of "Vocal" so that this classification won't be inflatedly used.
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  #44  
Old Jun 2, 2010, 06:59 PM
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I don't know where to draw the line on defining a vocal. If someone just sings a couple of words in the middle of a track, it's hard to call that a vocal, but on the other hand, someone is credited as a vocalist.

What kind of rule could we come up with to prevent over saturation of the vocal classification? Would we use something like "OP+ED Themes don't count as vocals if they are on an original soundtrack" and maybe "Image songs count as Image/Prototype and not Vocal unless they span more than X% of the album."
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  #45  
Old Jun 3, 2010, 06:03 PM
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Okay, I've added 4 new classifications, so now the new instructions look like this:

Quote:
Original Soundtrack - Music that accompanies some audio, visual, or printed work.
Arrangement - Arrangement of music that accompanied some audio, visual, or printed work
Vocal - Music that includes vocals
Drama - Stories, monologues, and radio shows where everyone is in character
Live Event - Music recorded at a live event
Remix - A derived work that uses samples of the original. Only use for valid VGMdb categories
Original Work - Music that has no connection to any of VGMdb's categories
Talk- Dialogues where the actors or composers are speaking, but are not in character
Remaster - A modified or improved work that overcomes limitations in the original recording or hardware. Only use for valid VGMdb categories.
Image / Prototype - Music that is related to any of VGMdb's categories, but was not used in it. Image albums and image songs qualify.
Sound Effect - Sound effects and voice samples
Data - A data track that appears on the media
Video - Any video work
One problem though, the instructions now overlap the bottom of the page.

Anyway, these have been integrated everywhere (I think.) We can still discuss any further changes.
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  #46  
Old Jun 3, 2010, 11:27 PM
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For confirmation, is a character song included as "Image/Prototype"? If so, perhaps it'd be better to mention it in the instruction message because I guess the number of character song albums would easily surpass that of an image album (much more that of prototype albums).

While "Unused" could stand as a different classification than "Image/Prototype", I also start thinking it doesn't hurt to separate "Image" from "Prototype". I do see similarity between "Image" and "Prototype", but "Prototype" and "Unused" also have some attributes in common, as below.

Unused -> Music that was supposed to be on a product, but eventually not.
Prototype -> Music that was supposed to be on a product, but eventually replaced by the final versions.
Image -> Music that is not supposed to be on the product itself but composed for other purposes.

So it may be not fair to merge only "Prototype" and "Image" of the three classifications. Or rather, I'd merge "Unused" and "Prototype" instead, even if it's still flawed.

...Or, given the fact soundtracks like FFXII still doesn't fall under any classification available, perhaps I'd stretch the definition of "Prototype" to catch them.

Unused: A catch-all classification for music that is supposed to be on a product but not.
Prototype/Unconverted: Music that is composed for a product but replaced by the final version.
Image: Music that is not supposed to be on a product itself but composed for other purposes. Commercial, Character song is included.
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  #47  
Old Jun 4, 2010, 02:53 AM
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Isn't an "image album" basically a prototype used for storyboarding? Maybe it's not a prototype of individual tracks as such, but it is a prototype of style, tone, and the composer's capabilities.

Character songs are a bit more tricky. If they were used in the work, then they wouldn't be image at all. I see what you mean about the broad definition "music created for a work but not used in it" might cover too much stuff, but with this division, the Image Album doesn't really fit under the same definition of Image Song.
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  #48  
Old Jun 4, 2010, 03:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
Isn't an "image album" basically a prototype used for storyboarding? Maybe it's not a prototype of individual tracks as such, but it is a prototype of style, tone, and the composer's capabilities.
I'm not sure about this. Several image albums from Studio Ghibli like what seanne introduced are, yeah, basically prototypes as the official site states.
Quote:
イメージアルバムとは、音楽の発注を受ける際、宮崎監督が久石譲に作品の内容を伝える為に渡す、詩、散文な どをもとに、久石譲が作り出すデモテープ的音楽をCD化したもの。

However, if an image album is created after the release of the game, it's hard to call it a prototype. Most tracks of The Entrance Ogre Battle Image Album weren't used in the game because the game was already released, but the composers still made them for the world and characters of the game, so "Prototype" doesn't fit this case. "Unused" can apply, but I think those tracks are, the likes of a commercial song or a character song that isn't used in the game or anime, so my preferred way is to group them together under "Image". Those Studio Ghibli albums can be classified as Prototypes, despite their names.
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  #49  
Old Jun 4, 2010, 03:38 AM
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That's why I didn't split up Image and Prototype - because most Image Albums won't be classified as Image, which is confusing.

That does leave a lot of image and character songs which we don't know what to do with. Maybe this is what Vocal should be used for -- character songs, image songs, commercial songs -- but not in-game vocals like OPs or EDs.
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  #50  
Old Jun 4, 2010, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
That's why I didn't split up Image and Prototype - because most Image Albums won't be classified as Image, which is confusing.
Indeed, but still, if the current "Prototype/Image" classification is intended to cover "a prototype of individual tracks, style, tone, and the composer's capabilities", it's possible that fewer Image Album won't be classified as Image, so I think our current state may be already confusing in that the literal album title and our selected classification don't always match. For instance, this database has 40~50 official image albums, and 5~6 image soundtrack, but I think at least 11 of them can't be classified as "Prototype/Image" anyway (the number can grow, with more investigation).

Street Fighter II Image Album -G.S.M. CAPCOM-: looks like "Arrangement".
Samurai Spirits Image Album: If the obi is correct, it's "Arrangement".
Breath of Fire V Dragon Quarter Mini Image Soundtrack: it's basically the same as FFXII. We currently don't have any classification that fits this.
World Heroes 2 Image Album : If the obi is correct, it's "Arrangement".
Image Album Ys V: Kefin, The Lost City of Sand: based on the Obi and back, "Original Soundtrack + Arrangement + Vocal".
Garou Densetsu Image Album: If the obi is correct, it's "Arrangement".
Art of Fighting 2 Image Album: if the flyer is correct, it's "Arrangement".
World Heroes 2 Jet Image Album:If the obi is correct, it's "Arrangement".
Fate/Zero Original Image Soundtrack "RETURN TO ZERO": looks like "Original Soundtrack"
Usotukiha tenshino hajimari Image Album: If the obi is correct, it's "Original Soundtrack" + "Vocal"
Rockman 10 Image Soundtrack: looks like "Arrangement".

Quote:
That does leave a lot of image and character songs which we don't know what to do with. Maybe this is what Vocal should be used for -- character songs, image songs, commercial songs -- but not in-game vocals like OPs or EDs.
The problem is what if image and character songs are instrumental - I don't think there are too many, though.
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  #51  
Old Jun 4, 2010, 06:30 AM
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Maybe we should just change Image/Prototype to Protoype/Unused, and refrain from using the problematic word "Image". Then, we can come up with another name for a category of peripherally related music (commercial songs, etc.)
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  #52  
Old Jun 4, 2010, 08:50 AM
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I agree 'image' is a problematic classification since it's a pretty broad concept which could, at its broadest interpretation, include pretty much everything (since even original music for a product is created based on some manner of information about its contents).

But staying within reason I guess it could be divided into two types - music made and released before the product, and music made and released after the product.

The first would include 'image albums' and 'image singles' such as the ones made by Hisaishi and Studio Ghibli. I really have no idea why they make and release these albums - it seems pretty meaningless - unless it's intended to create hype or something. Anyway, image singles will typically not be used in the finished product at all, while at least some tracks from an image album will be, though perhaps in a slightly different form/arrangement.

For the second type I would include any and all albums related to a given product which features all-new music - this is to disallow your typical arrange or vocal album. So examples would be for instance the kind of voice-actress solo albums Konami likes to release (e.g. My Sweet Valentine / Shiori Fujisaki).
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  #53  
Old Jun 4, 2010, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
Remaster - A modified or improved work that overcomes limitations in the original recording or hardware. Only use for valid VGMdb categories.
So for clarification, all "OSTs" with sound design significantly diverging from what's used in-game should be using this classification? I'm still considering a remaster (as in mastering process in music) something different than what's effectively changed instrumentation. Maybe call it Revamp then?
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  #54  
Old Jun 4, 2010, 11:54 AM
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Should we change the category to Remaster/Revamp? I think the main purpose of the classification is to warn the user about soundtracks that don't sound quite sound like any of the game versions, so I don't think we would need two separate categories for remaster and this "demaster". I'd rather figure out a way to combine them.
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  #55  
Old Jun 4, 2010, 10:25 PM
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Although I know we shouldn't make submitters overwhelmed by the number of classifications to select, part of me also wonders that we should combine multiple classifications so quickly if there is a moderate difference (that wasn't the case with pre-order bonus and early purchase bonus). We can merge unused and prototype, or remaster and so-called demaster later if we realize it's hard to make a decision on which it is. However, I guess prototype is a kind of sub-class of unused, and criterion for making a decision will be from liner notes, track names, or our ears judgement, so I think merging is fine.

As for revamp or demaster (without a satisfactory command of the English language, I'm not the best person to examine the words suggested, but does "revamp" fit how those soundtrack are created?), when I browse only a few of super-famous composer's discographies superficially and drop out something unclear, there are already 20++ albums. Considering that I'm missing quite lots, I feel the eventual number will turn out to be enough to justify having a separate classification for it.

And I honestly merging remaster and demaster is confusing (e.g. if remaster/revamp tag is added, couldn't potentially some people have a wrong idea that the reprint of Vagrant Story features unconverted music like some of Sakimoto's other soundtracks?).

http://vgmdb.net/album/204
http://vgmdb.net/album/608
http://vgmdb.net/album/925
http://vgmdb.net/album/1156
http://vgmdb.net/album/1531
http://vgmdb.net/album/1684
http://vgmdb.net/album/1989
http://vgmdb.net/album/2156
http://vgmdb.net/album/4418
http://vgmdb.net/album/4421
http://vgmdb.net/album/4454
http://vgmdb.net/album/4598
http://vgmdb.net/album/4772
http://vgmdb.net/album/4877
http://vgmdb.net/album/4913
http://vgmdb.net/album/5681
http://vgmdb.net/album/6949
http://vgmdb.net/album/7190
http://vgmdb.net/album/8057
http://vgmdb.net/album/10018
http://vgmdb.net/album/11992
http://vgmdb.net/album/13537
http://vgmdb.net/album/15943
http://vgmdb.net/album/17639
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  #56  
Old Jun 5, 2010, 12:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedille View Post
And I honestly merging remaster and demaster is confusing (e.g. if remaster/revamp tag is added, couldn't potentially some people have a wrong idea that the reprint of Vagrant Story features unconverted music like some of Sakimoto's other soundtracks?).
Personally I think your average user doesn't really care where the difference comes, just that it's different. You could add it to the notes, and I doubt there are many cases like VS post-remasterings anyway. The original VS OST sounds different from the game but right now is "Original Soundtrack", that may get people the wrong idea more than 'remastering'.

Also having FF12 as "Image/Prototype" is strange, since the description is "Music that is related to any of VGMdb's categories, but was not used in it. Image albums and image songs qualify". I don't think it conveys clearly that the music is 'tweaked/better' than in the game but still the same music.
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  #57  
Old Jun 5, 2010, 01:40 AM
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Quote:
Personally I think your average user doesn't really care where the difference comes, just that it's different. You could add it to the notes, and I doubt there are many cases like VS post-remasterings anyway.
I don't deny it. As long as they're informed it sounds different than the in-game music, whether it happened at the pre-recording stage or not may not matter. Then again I wonder if there aren't many cases like VS and can keep it in the note we need "remaster" to begin with (I guess we overlooked some entries like this), but if "remaster" has a separate classification, so does "revamp/demaster". We can merge them later like we did for "Independent". Just my opinion, of course.

Quote:
The original VS OST sounds different from the game but right now is "Original Soundtrack", that may get people the wrong idea more than 'remastering'.
Aside of "Ifrit", I for one don't think it sound as different as, say, FFXII, so I have no problem with labeling it as Original Soundtrack, but I know it's very subjective. A degree of difference is expected and there are some cases where the composers slightly modified the ultra popular soundtrack in a recording session (FFX-2 or some of Mitsuda) but are classified as Original Soundtrack and people have no issue.

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Also having FF12 as "Image/Prototype" is strange
Definitely agreed, and that's why I suggested "Prototype/Unconverted" instead, but it's still flawed.
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  #58  
Old Jun 5, 2010, 02:46 AM
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Now we have "Video", are we going to classify the content of each video? I think it inherently overlaps with other classifications... like "Vocal".

A DVD that contains a video of concerts -> Video + Live Event?
A DVD that contains an interview with artists -> Video + Talk?
A DVD that contains a promotional movie of an OP/ED theme -> Video + Original Soundtrack?

Aside of concert DVDs, I personally think it's too redundant and don't want to use it elsewhere. As a matter of consistency, I think maybe we should keep it "Video" alone every time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
Then, we can come up with another name for a category of peripherally related music (commercial songs, etc.)
To catch up commercial songs, trailer music, character songs or whatnot, how about "others"? (didn't we previously have it as platform or classification?) This classification can be used for music that is used outside of the product itself as well as miscellaneous music any other classification doesn't cover. I know it sounds too vague, though.
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  #59  
Old Jun 5, 2010, 03:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedille View Post
We can merge them later like we did for "Independent". Just my opinion, of course.
Well, I'm not against having more separate categories but they need to be worded in a way the the distinction is clear to avoid confusing the users. Since the concept of 'remaster' and 'revamp/demaster/etc' seems same-y ('different from the game') you need to be careful here.

And you are right, some mastering is normal and we should only use 'revamp' or whatever with clear cases, though I always thought the original VS OST's echo and channel balance was off and the remaster is closer to the game, but maybe it's just me.
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  #60  
Old Jun 5, 2010, 08:34 AM
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So, I don't know. My only argument about being more specific in classifying was trying to keep a "manageable" number of Classifications. If we relax that restriction, we are free to add a lot more. This might help with some of the objections to the use of the Vocal classification. I'll propose something to start discussion:

Remaster - music improved for the soundtrack release
"Demaster" - whatever you call this, where the music was downgraded, sequenced, after composition. I'd need Datschge to help come up with a name and a description for it.

Prototype
Unused
"Image" - Honestly, I don't know if this isn't covered by some others

Vocal Arrange
Synth Vocal - Vocaloids fit here
OP Theme
ED Theme
Character Song
Commercial Song
Image Song - I guess this is a catch-all for the rest, like the albums Seanne mentioned

Licensed
Unlicensed - (For illegal use of licensed work? Like the Ending Theme by Toto from the 1st Dune Movie, which can be found on one of the Farland enclosures
Derivative Work - Incorporation of older game themes, or classical music

Game-Related - For everything else vaguely related to games, but somehow miraculously not covered by all these categories.

Of course, I still don't know if one of these categories fits FFXIII.....
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