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  #1  
Old Mar 27, 2008, 08:15 AM
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Default Soundtracks directly from the game CD?

I apologize if this has been adressed in past topics, but I did a quick search and couldn't find a related thread.

My question is whether VGMdb considers actual game CD's for submission into the database? On older consoles (Saturn, PlayStation), the soundtrack could often be played directly from the game disc (Tomb Raider and Wipeout come to mind). Does this count as a soundtrack release of sorts?

Or is this considered an "enclosure / promo"?
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  #2  
Old Mar 27, 2008, 08:43 AM
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Currently soundtracks ripped from the CD (usually called Redbook Audio) don't qualify as soundtracks for display here., as out focus is on actual soundtrack releases.

A lot of people do seem to classify redbooks separately from game rips (because you can "stick them in a cd player"), but in essence they are the same thing. Back in the early days of CD gaming systems, the game code and graphics didn't really fill a whole CD, so there was plenty of room left for music tracks (and this was the only way to move beyond chiptunes.) Nowadays it makes more sense to compress the music (either lossless, or more likely lossy) and put it in the game data.

So, perhaps someday someone will make an attempt at cataloging every piece of music that has ever been in a game, but that's quite a daunting task, and I don't think anyone is currently working on it.
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  #3  
Old Mar 27, 2008, 10:00 AM
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Ok thank you!
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  #4  
Old Mar 29, 2008, 01:12 PM
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Not to complicate things, but I don't see why we couldn't expand to cataloging Redbook Audio. That's pretty valuable/interesting data that could make a great addition to the site and make it even more comprehensive, even without official track titles available. Just keeping a potential debate/re-analysis alive.
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  #5  
Old Mar 29, 2008, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liontamer View Post
Not to complicate things, but I don't see why we couldn't expand to cataloging Redbook Audio. That's pretty valuable/interesting data that could make a great addition to the site and make it even more comprehensive, even without official track titles available. Just keeping a potential debate/re-analysis alive.
Redbook Audio is just one specific form of digital audio. If we expanded to include redbook, we'd also need to include all forms of digital audio that could be extracted from a game.

I think that cataloging every piece of game music period is something that's worth doing, and if/when it is done, it makes sense for VGMdb to have some role in that, in whatever form that might be. For now though, we've got lots of work to do just concentrating on albums.
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Old Apr 6, 2008, 12:26 PM
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I have to politely disagree with your stance on Redbook Audio, SS. Redbook Audio is a very distinct category in my mind, and there's no reason why adding a category for RA would mean you'd have to add all forms of extractable digital audio (that idea seems quite silly, frankly). Also, I don't understand how RA is in essence the same thing as game rips. RA rips are essentially official - there's a set track time for each track, everyone's copy is the same, and RA for a game either exists or it doesn't. Rips are way more complicated - totally unofficial, multiple rips of the same game, different track names, different track lengths, ripper credits, plus there are tons more rips than there are games with RA.

I see a potential problem with what to name the tracks, sure, but I think that's something that could be worked out.
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  #7  
Old Apr 6, 2008, 01:01 PM
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The ogg vorbis files you find in the data directories of GemFighter Online are every bit as official as CD redbook tracks for all the same reasons you gave above. They are just in a different format.

I just don't see why game CDs with redbooks should be included in a database with official soundtracks just because you can stick them in a CD player and play them.

I do agree that Redbooks are a distinct category, but they are a distinct category of extractable game media, not official soundtrack releases. I'd venture a guess that most redbooks don't even have that much music on them. The majority of PC-Engine redbooks mostly consist of voice dialogue, and maybe a few vocals, while the in-game BGM is still synth, so there's no way that these were intended to be official soundtracks. Somebody should cover extractable game media including redbooks, but it should be a seperate database from the officials. I'm sure that VGMdb will play a role in whatever effort takes form.
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  #8  
Old Apr 6, 2008, 05:16 PM
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It could be possible for VGMdb to cover redbook audio, once we have the series/product database in place. The current structure hierarchy for entries is:

Album > disc > tracklist > track

The problem now is that a redbook CD can't be an album, since (by definition) it's a game CD. It all works out once we can do this:

Series > product > disc > tracklist > track

Redbook audio can happily share the same database with regards to disc, tracklist and track level data while being kept separate from albums. I suppose everyone is amenable to this arrangement?
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  #9  
Old Apr 7, 2008, 12:10 PM
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Yeah, after reading over VGMDB's "About Us" section, I understand what you're saying about only covering official releases. Though, you include doujins and some other CDs that aren't even really game music, but I guess you're going for any albums related to game music.
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  #10  
Old Sep 11, 2008, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
I just don't see why game CDs with redbooks should be included in a database with official soundtracks just because you can stick them in a CD player and play them.
And I don't see why a disc full of video game music should be excluded just because it doesn't have "OST" stamped on it.

Sorry for re-opening old wounds, but this thread concerns a question I've wanted to ask and I didn't want to start another thread. How can this place be "a database of videogame music" when you effectively exclude half that music?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel
So, perhaps someday someone will make an attempt at cataloging every piece of music that has ever been in a game, but that's quite a daunting task, and I don't think anyone is currently working on it.
We're all working on it. It's spread across many different websites in at least two different languages. Moby Games, Wikipedia, that one Japanese site that lists almost every composer ever except it's all in Japanese, SNESmusic.org, Project 2612, etc. You have the opportunity to include and unify that information here, but you won't because of some stubborn view you maintain towards the legitimacy of a soundtrack.

Why not open artist pages to include text-only amendments (as in, not full-fledged album entries) so that we might flesh out the artists' discographies / game-ographies?

Let's look at Lords of Thunder for PC-E. We know Satoshi Miyashita, a member of T's Music (both of which already have artist pages), composed the soundtrack. What's to keep us from adding "1993 - April 23 - Lords of Thunder - Composer" to the top of his discography? We even have enough information to tie each track to an in-game event, so we could create an album entry if we wanted but we don't even have to do that. Noting this work on the artist's page would be more than enough for the time being.

And if you desperately need these entries to be categorized as something, consider adding an Original Game Audio, Redbook, or Music from Cartridge/Disc category. This last category could even open the door to Scene releases and music disks, like those from YM Rockerz. They're certainly not that much different than the doujin releases you already cover.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel
For now though, we've got lots of work to do just concentrating on albums.
Wouldn't you say we've got a pretty firm grasp on that already? At any given time on the Updates page, there are about 8 or 9 different names that come up. They're adding an old release here and there, but more often than not they're just adding the ever-growing list of new releases. The 8 or 9 of you have an extensive grasp on obscure soundtrack releases, and no one's doubting that. I'm also very thankful that you're able to neatly organize and present the upcoming releases as well. Meanwhile, there are members like myself with the knowledge to help grow the site in a direction that you admittedly want to take it in, but are unable to help due to a subjective decision.

The About page claims "the true expertise exists out there in the collective masses of our audience, so all of you are invited to participate in growing and shaping this database so that it might reach its full potential", but you've limited that potential by driving this arbitrary wedge between what you deem legit and illegitimate.

Please consider allowing users to edit artist pages to include the artist's full work.
And please excuse me if any of the issues I've brought up have been covered in other threads; I haven't read through the entire board's history.
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  #11  
Old Sep 11, 2008, 10:41 PM
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This issue is probably more due to historical circumstance than anything. A large part of it has to do with the database schema, which was drawn up somewhere around 2003-4, and the focus was somewhat different from what we envision now.

Currently the site is built around the "album" as the primary entity. As I mentioned above, game discs with redbook audio aren't technically albums, which is why the database excludes them. It's something that doesn't sit too well with me, either. The solution here is to make some extensive changes to the database structure (the crucial addition being a new "media" table) which would take some time, but I believe I've got the details hammered out. I'll put forth a proposal this weekend for you guys to look over.

As for artist works, text-only entries can be possible (and it could even be useful for "placeholder" entries that can be expanded into a full album entry later), and game-ographies will be possible when we get the series/product database up, but there's also the possibility of data sharing with other sources that provide such information (which admittedly we haven't explored extensively yet).
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  #12  
Old Sep 14, 2008, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge Ito View Post
You have the opportunity to include and unify that information here, but you won't because of some stubborn view you maintain towards the legitimacy of a soundtrack.
This is not what I wanted to see upon returning home.

I think we've been very open to input here. For those places where we have been rigid, it's because we feel it will degrade the quality of what we present. Being stubborn is a virtue in this regard.

Original game audio is not going into the albums database because it does not belong there. The argument for this is presented elsewhere, so I won't repeat it here.

Information about a game's music belongs in the games table. This isn't ready yet, and there's still some architecture that needs to be hammered out. There's also some stuff to work out with partners. It's going to happen though, and I know it seems like things take a long time, but the result is something that's been thoughtfully considered before implementation.

On the artist pages, the notes and biography sections are going to be opened up soon. I was hoping to generate some discussion on their content and use, and was waiting to hear some opinions before creating them.
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  #13  
Old Sep 14, 2008, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
We're all working on it. It's spread across many different websites in at least two different languages. Moby Games, Wikipedia, that one Japanese site that lists almost every composer ever except it's all in Japanese, SNESmusic.org, Project 2612, etc. You have the opportunity to include and unify that information here
I have to say, this idea is very exciting to me, especially considering that the information on the other websites you've mentioned cannot be scrutinised & corrected to the same degree as it can be here (so we end up with blanket composer credits and half-truths *yuck*).
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  #14  
Old Sep 14, 2008, 08:34 AM
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I've come up with a proposal in response to the points raised in this thread: http://vgmdb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1249
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  #15  
Old Sep 15, 2008, 03:24 PM
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I want to thank you for the replies, guys. If I sounded confrontational in my first post, I'm sorry -- it wasn't entirely intentional. I think we all see what a great thing the database can potentially become, and maybe I'm a little more anxious to see it happen than others.

SS and Gigablah, I do see what you mean now. I'm looking at the database as a few pieces working in tandem, where you're looking at it as if the albums section were a tree trunk and everything branches out from it. I can see why you would want the albums db and whatever new db redbook audio gets placed in to remain separate, but I still think there would need to be some crosstalk between the two (any further thoughts I have on this I'll save for Gigablah's proposal thread).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitz Lunar View Post
I have to say, this idea is very exciting to me, especially considering that the information on the other websites you've mentioned cannot be scrutinised & corrected to the same degree as it can be here (so we end up with blanket composer credits and half-truths *yuck*).
The fact that just about every other site lists the same Kenji Yamamoto scoring both the Dragon Ball games and the Metroid games comes to mind...
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  #16  
Old Sep 15, 2008, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge Ito View Post
I'm looking at the database as a few pieces working in tandem, where you're looking at it as if the albums section were a tree trunk and everything branches out from it.
You hit the nail on the head; the latter is the mentality we had originally, and ever since we made the first major addition to the database (the artist table) we've been gradually shifting towards a more modular system like what you said, different pieces working in tandem.
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  #17  
Old Oct 18, 2008, 10:48 AM
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Sorry this is a bit of a late addition to this thread, but doesn't TOSEC (The Old School Emulation Center) already have something similar to this? For instance, TOSEC has a complete cuesheet pack:

http://www.tosec.org/

I've seen lists specific to audio data before. Granted, this information isn't in an accessible database like on VGMdb, but a lot of it is out there already. I'm not saying that VGMdb shouldn't do something like this, just that some of the information may already be available elsewhere.

Personally, I think if the audio files can be extracted, then the original format would be those files. However, collections of things such as SPC data is different from a collection of albums. The reason for this is that the SPC, like redbook audio, is part of the CD. It can be great to have MP3s of it on your iPod or audio folder, but ultimately, because these files are associated with game data files, preservation of this type of digital data would fall under game preservation, not album preservation (but that doesn't mean it couldn't be included in a discography).

And besides, a complete database of game audio would be incredibly daunting to create, especially since the complete C64 .sid collection contains something like 18,000 audio playlists o_O
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  #18  
Old Oct 18, 2008, 11:26 AM
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I do understand the group who's wishing for a redbook-part on VGMdb, but on the other hand these CDs are not real official OST-Releases.

Well, what's about a compromise: Just add the albums which don't have a official OST-Release? I think we all would benefit from this much more.
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  #19  
Old Oct 18, 2008, 11:55 AM
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Would making a sister site to VGMdb for redbooks using the same system with slight modification work, if someone else took the responsibility of maintaining and hosting it maybe?
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  #20  
Old Oct 18, 2008, 12:16 PM
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no, doesn't make any sense in starting such familiar project again... there would be even a AnimeOSTdb better.
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  #21  
Old Oct 18, 2008, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akumu View Post
Would making a sister site to VGMdb for redbooks using the same system with slight modification work, if someone else took the responsibility of maintaining and hosting it maybe?
In the end, I think enhancing the artist pages to include full credits is the way to go. Compiling game discs using redbook audio, specifically, seems to be rather out of our scope. After all, there's little difference between a disc featuring redbook audio and a CD-ROM game disc with the music files in .wav format, easily accessible.
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  #22  
Old Oct 19, 2008, 04:23 AM
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I still dream of a website that would cover the subject of VGM at large, a kind of merging of all sites out there covering different aspects of it separately. It would be extremely awesome to browse; the "ultimate experience" in other words. However, this would require so much time and efforts to put up and then be almost as hard to manage, so it's difficult to imagine one person running it alone. Team work would be the way to go, yet I have this impression that most webmasters would be too prideful to let go what they did to be used in a common project, which is understandable on one hand, but too bad on the other.

In the end, I guess that if you would like to cover something that the current VGM websites don't, the most productive thing to do would be to do it yourself. A site gathering information about Redbook, or even better, about all music that was not published officially would be innovative and useful. It could be pictured as a light to shine on VGMdb's dark side. A giant, but possible task. Still, it would be yet another division of VGM information, fractionating it further...
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  #23  
Old Oct 19, 2008, 05:12 AM
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You might want to comment on this, in case you missed it: http://vgmdb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1249
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  #24  
Old Oct 19, 2008, 08:19 AM
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Sorry to bring that quote up so belatedly, only noticed it now...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge Ito View Post
Moby Games, Wikipedia, that one Japanese site that lists almost every composer ever except it's all in Japanese, SNESmusic.org, Project 2612, etc. You have the opportunity to include and unify that information here (...) Please consider allowing users to edit artist pages to include the artist's full work.
I asked SS in private before if he'd be willing to work toward automatizing this. At snesmusic.org we have a lot of data from different systems (SNES being the obvious one, but thanks to Knurek also pretty much everything supported by Hoot as well as some starts for NSF, GBS, HES and SFS) which I feel need some form of unified gateway listing artists' work across all systems. Since this is vgmdb (and not vgmalbumdb =P) I proposed to SS snesmusic.org (as well as other sites) could offer rss like db output of the artists for the different systems, allowing vgmdb to offer more complete works listings for the artists while linking to the diverse archives. Meanwhile everyone could continue working on their respective specialized coverage. (This could also be a solution to the redbook CDs issue mentioned in another recent thread).

I'm currently swamped with rl work, but would be very happy to help making this happen in a timely manner if it's wanted.
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Old Oct 24, 2008, 09:42 PM
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If this ever becomes a reality, I would love to help out in any way.

Last edited by Knoccafella; Oct 24, 2008 at 09:46 PM.
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  #26  
Old Oct 24, 2008, 09:51 PM
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Datschge: we'd be happy to incorporate that information. I'll get in touch with you soon.
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  #27  
Old Feb 9, 2009, 11:53 AM
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I hate to bump this thread, but I have a related question.

I have an old PC game ... I forget which one, but it's part of the Spy Fox series. The game CD itself tells you that the game's "original soundtrack" can be listened to in a standard CD player. It even included liner notes for these songs (all parodies of famous James Bond themes).

Now, I understand the distinction between in-game redbook audio, but as far as I could tell (without installing the game), these songs are not used in the game. They're included as a bonus.

Would such an item count?
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  #28  
Old May 24, 2009, 04:41 PM
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I am bumping this thread too, cause the last question wasn't answered and i found a similar title.

It's a game disc.. BUT the tracklist is printed on it, and the disc is even called "original game soundtrack".

It's still a redbook though.. could it fit ?
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  #29  
Old May 24, 2009, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrkul View Post
Noctropolis
I remember playing that game when I was a kid. Don't remember the disc though. In my opinion, I think it could be added to the site. It's a rather clever thing for them to do, actually.
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  #30  
Old May 25, 2009, 04:11 AM
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I'm thinking maybe we should hold off on this one until some of the product stuff has been implemented, and maybe even the classification system has been overhauled.

If this one is added, then what's the difference between a game redbook with a tracklist, and one without a tracklist?
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