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  #31  
Old May 10, 2010, 09:43 AM
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It's probably easier to find out information and credits for western animations anyways. Given it's all in english, it has to be somewhere. Most non-western releases are most likely going to be a mix of english/japanese/??? and will need a translation of sort somwhere.

At least vgm encompasses all of vgm, so I don't have to feel like I'm being a hypocrite against animation soundtracks, but anime soundtracks seem to have a lot more than I've heard in some western soundtrack release. I just notice they usually have vocals that stand out strong. Maybe just a Disney thing.
I'm not really against it, but then I'd hope we'd have a way to distinguish anime soundtracks from it.
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  #32  
Old May 10, 2010, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
I'm not sure about the answer to this question. It depends on what anime music fans want, once we build up a community here. For now, I think we should stick with non-mainstream Western stuff (i.e., Moomins is fine, but don't add all the Disney/Pixar albums until we have defined our role.)
What do you mean with all the Disney-Pixar albums? It's not like that I would like to add every Disney Neoteenie album to the archive.

My suggestions would be Disney Albums, like the official TaleSpin Soundtrack, The Disney Afternoon Vocal CD and the Lion King Bootleg OST. The first two ones are even for today standards incredible rare. On the other hand, what's with these another animated classics from Don Bluth? I think "An American Tail" would be a worthy addition too.
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  #33  
Old May 10, 2010, 01:37 PM
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I think it's time to give a proper definition to what "anime" is and in fact which kind of album can fit in the database..
I see you talk about "non-mainstream", but what is it exactly?
Are you talking about what i could call "Cartoons" too ?

I have little to no knowledge on anime, but disney/dreamworks/pixar etc.. are called differently in France, it's "Dessin Animé" and not anime.

The word "Anime" was not really used before the mid 90's, when "Mangas" invaded us.

For now, only Japanese albums could fit?
Must be OVA or films?
Origin of the series must be from Japan or something..?

What about series like the following ones to help me out and give me an idea.. ?
"Space Pirate Captain Harlock" (called Albator in France)
"The Mysterious Cities of Gold" (called Les Mystérieuses Cités d'or in France)
"The Littles"
"Candy Candy"
"Thundercats"
"Saint Seiya"
"City Hunter"
"Yu-Gi-Oh"
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  #34  
Old May 10, 2010, 01:56 PM
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anime != animation, at least for me.

So that excludes everything from Disney, Pixar and Dreamworks that was drawn, rendered, etc. - and probably anything else that doesn't fit into the typical "japanese anime" category.

If we allow all types of animation then we're facing huge problems. "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" e.g. - the Wiki describes it as "live-action/animation hybrid" <- so how should be deal with that soundtrack?
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  #35  
Old May 10, 2010, 02:54 PM
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"anime" is the japanese term for animation from Japan, it's a official name for the whole branch. In the western regions/countries we always called it "cartoon" or for high quality productions "animations".

On the other I'll have to notice that in the case of Disney Afternoon Series most of the classic ones have been done by TMS. They also did some other wellknown shows you know, just check the link. We don't have to add everything but it would not hurt us to expaned the database at last with the most important CDs. VGMdb is the best archive for such things, I don't see no reason for holding back - as long as we have some kind of "cartoon"-rules.
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  #36  
Old May 10, 2010, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucy View Post
after AcidBeasts suggestion I think I should ask you about the submissions for american produced animation series/films.

Are we allowed to add them to the database?
Anime != cartoon.
It's easy enough to find information on western stuff. And most cartoons don't have any music worth mention anyways.
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  #37  
Old May 10, 2010, 11:53 PM
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@Lucy: That's how the term is used by the japanese themself. They use it for their own animation and everything that comes from the outside.

If you ask the generic european or american what an 'anime' is, the answer is probably going to be something like 'cartoon series/movie from japan'.

"Lion King", "The Beauty and the Beast" - that's not anime for me. It's a "Zeichentrickfilm" (animated feature).

While I love the scores for both movies (Hans Zimmer and Alan Menken) it's not something I think should belong in VGMdb.
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  #38  
Old May 11, 2010, 12:13 AM
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When asked I thought that american/western scores for animes (like DBZ) are the topic of discussion, not western animation. I don't like the idea of having all those western scores in the database, I'd rather have it limited to japanese animation only. Although, people sure might argue "if animation, then all animation" since vgmdb is not only restricted to japanese video game music but also includes western scores.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrkul View Post
What about series like the following ones to help me out and give me an idea.. ?
"Space Pirate Captain Harlock" (called Albator in France)
"Candy Candy"
"Saint Seiya"
"City Hunter"
"Yu-Gi-Oh"
No question about these since they're original all-japanese productions.

Quote:
"The Mysterious Cities of Gold" (called Les Mystérieuses Cités d'or in France)
"The Littles"
"Thundercats"
Unlike those three candidates. Some were produced in Japan, some co-produced, some only directed by japanese ppl but wholly produced in e.g. the USA. So, what makes anime anime? The production cast, the drawing style etc. etc.? We're really in need for a watertight definition.

By the way, we already have such a moot case in our database: Alfred J. Kwak
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  #39  
Old May 11, 2010, 12:57 AM
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i feel similar to you guys about this. i don't think western animation soundtracks really fit on the site, but i can't help thinking that rejecting them is a double standard - the banner image uses the vague term "visual arts" as opposed to "anime" more specifically. maybe that needs to be changed?
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  #40  
Old May 11, 2010, 04:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidBeast View Post
Some were produced in Japan, some co-produced, some only directed by japanese ppl but wholly produced in e.g. the USA. So, what makes anime anime? The production cast, the drawing style etc. etc.? We're really in need for a watertight definition.

By the way, we already have such a moot case in our database: Alfred J. Kwak
And that's the whole point what you guys are missing. Take Alfred J. Kwak as example: It's an european character made as animation in japan. So, what should we do now? Is it a anime or not? According the japaneses it is one but here in europe it's not. Even Herman van Veen doesn't consider it as anime, just as a cartoon. And was it to you guys now, hmm?

I think it should be allowed to add them here with some individual restrictions. And I disagree with you all on the term, that there're enough sites our there for american soundtracks. Most of them are not well enough listed or just a stupid copy-paste work with no informations to the CD itself and just the cover or a hasty tracklist.

Edit:
LiquidAcid: Your argumentation is a bit fishy. For example, let's take the old well known cartoons from our local tv, like Biene Maya, Nils Holgersson, Wickie - and so on. These are basically european productions from Arena and japanese companies. Nnobody really cared about their origins until the anime boom started in germany - and suddenly they've been famed to be real animes...?

Last edited by Lucy; May 11, 2010 at 04:18 AM.
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  #41  
Old May 11, 2010, 04:44 AM
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Your examples are what I consider to be cartoons. What most of us consider Anime is very different in style and that's where we should draw the line.

I don't have a problem with your cartoon soundtracks being added, but I want to be able to filter them out.
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  #42  
Old May 11, 2010, 06:59 AM
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@Lucy: I actually didn't know that Wickie, Biene Maya and a lot of other series were produced by japanese animation companies. Taking that into consideration you're absolutely right about classifying them as anime (from my POV).

This makes drawing the line even harder. I have to admit that I wouldn't know where to draw it. Distinguishing by style is something very subjective, I doubt you can write a good ruleset for this...
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  #43  
Old May 11, 2010, 07:18 AM
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Just because it was produced by a Japanese animation company doesn't mean they used a Japanese style, and actually if you ask me there is a night and day difference between what I consider Anime and what I consider cartoons.

It's pretty easy to put a ruleset up actually, if it looks like a cartoon don't submit it..



vs



Oh you're right it's so similar, I'm having trouble figuring out which one should be considered Anime.
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  #44  
Old May 11, 2010, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowe View Post
Just because it was produced by a Japanese animation company doesn't mean they used a Japanese style, and actually if you ask me there is a night and day difference between what I consider Anime and what I consider cartoons.

It's pretty easy to put a ruleset up actually, if it looks like a cartoon don't submit it..



vs



Oh you're right it's so similar, I'm having trouble figuring out which one should be considered Anime.
Keep it down for a second, please..

Most of these series were joint- or commissions projects. And yes, Wickie can be considered as a Anime according the ANN Database Entry.

And just for history lessons, the very first anime and mangas were not on the standards of today:





Let's go back to the topic. I really think it would hurt if we add wordwide animation soundtracks to the db. In my eyes some of you are just to ignorant and nitpicking about it. Actually I can use the same gretchen-question for the doujin albums, and argue with the point that american doujin albums are not real authentic japanese ones and should be banned from VGMdb. And the first ones should be the TheOneUps. ;>

I think you know what I'm try to point out, or?
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  #45  
Old May 11, 2010, 08:05 AM
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I don't see why this category should have different grounds for eligibility than our other categories. Why should our intention be to catalog japanese animation specifically?
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  #46  
Old May 11, 2010, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanne View Post
I don't see why this category should have different grounds for eligibility than our other categories. Why should our intention be to catalog japanese animation specifically?
Truth. We're not covering Japanese VGM only for example. As long as people are willing to add, why not?
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  #47  
Old May 11, 2010, 08:30 AM
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Well, anosou you don't like Anime in the db at all, but luckily for you, you can just filter it out. However, if all that crap from Disney starts polluting the Anime side of things and there is no way to filter it out... ugh.
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  #48  
Old May 11, 2010, 08:30 AM
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OK, then what about "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" example? How much animation does a movie need so the soundtrack becomes "worthy" for inclusion in VGMdb?

Another question: Are rendered (see Pixar) animation movies considered 'anime'?

@Lowe: Could you stop calling Disney compositions crap. Just because you don't like their scores / soundtracks doesn't mean it's crap.

Last edited by LiquidAcid; May 11, 2010 at 08:32 AM.
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  #49  
Old May 11, 2010, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowe View Post
Well, anosou you don't like Anime in the db at all, but luckily for you, you can just filter it out. However, if all that crap from Disney starts polluting the Anime side of things and there is no way to filter it out... ugh.
It's not just a "disney-thing" we could so many rarities to the db, like the Futurama OST or the limited Transformers Movie Soundtrack (uh... Anime, gotcha). This would be really cool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidAcid View Post
OK, then what about "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" example? How much animation does a movie need so the soundtrack becomes "worthy" for inclusion in VGMdb?

Another question: Are rendered (see Pixar) animation movies considered 'anime'?

@Lowe: Could you stop calling Disney compositions crap. Just because you don't like their scores / soundtracks doesn't mean it's crap.
I would add Roger Rabbit to the db, regardless of it's status. But on the other hand we really should let the computer animated soundtracks untouched. I think that's a whole new approach.

Last edited by Lucy; May 11, 2010 at 08:38 AM.
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  #50  
Old May 11, 2010, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidAcid View Post
OK, then what about "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" example? How much animation does a movie need so the soundtrack becomes "worthy" for inclusion in VGMdb?

Another question: Are rendered (see Pixar) animation movies considered 'anime'?

@Lowe: Could you stop calling Disney compositions crap. Just because you don't like their scores / soundtracks doesn't mean it's crap.
Note that re: VGM it only needs to be vaguely associated to VGM and we even accept original work by VGM composers. How's THAT for a standard
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  #51  
Old May 11, 2010, 08:40 AM
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Then does the soundtrack to 'Avatar' belong here? Large parts are rendered on hardware, so if we consider rendered scenes 'animation' then it does belong here.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not against adding more albums to the DB, but I think we should at least figure out some boundary where animation begins and where it ends. Otherwise you could just add anything here that includes only the tinyiest bit of animation - I'm not sure if that's what we want.

Well, in the end the admins and mod have to decide it

@Lowe: Further simplify animation quality and background picture quality from Laputa and you end up with something similar in 'style' to Wickie. So IMHO you're comparing animation quality here, not style.

Last edited by LiquidAcid; May 11, 2010 at 08:44 AM.
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  #52  
Old May 11, 2010, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidAcid View Post
Then does the soundtrack to 'Avatar' belong here? Large parts are rendered on hardware, so if we consider rendered scenes 'animation' then it does belong here.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not against adding more albums to the DB, but I think we should at least figure out some boundary where animation begins and where it ends. Otherwise you could just add anything here that includes only the tinyiest bit of animation - I'm not sure if that's what we want.

Well, in the end the admins and mod have to decide it
(hence why it should stay video game music database, OH SNAP!)

I agree, but it's really hard. Anime/animation is a sub-genre of movies while games are more of a top-level genre.
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  #53  
Old May 11, 2010, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidAcid View Post
OK, then what about "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" example? How much animation does a movie need so the soundtrack becomes "worthy" for inclusion in VGMdb?
This seems like a borderline case. How many cross-over films like this would you say that there are?, I can't imagine there are very many. Personally I'd consider films like this one as live-action featuring a degree of animation - not really enough for it to warrant inclusion in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidAcid View Post
Another question: Are rendered (see Pixar) animation movies considered 'anime'?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucy View Post
But on the other hand we really should let the computer animated soundtracks untouched. I think that's a whole new approach.
This is also a tricky subject, and perhaps eligibility would be best judged on a case-by-case basis. While I don't see a problem with including newer Pixar films (they are still Disney/Pixar style animation films, just using a slightly different technique) or the Final Fantasy movies, I don't think we want to add stuff like Avatar.
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Last edited by seanne; May 11, 2010 at 08:59 AM.
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  #54  
Old May 11, 2010, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
@Lowe: Could you stop calling Disney compositions crap. Just because you don't like their scores / soundtracks doesn't mean it's crap.
I don't even have a problem with the actual uh.. music. Hell, I don't even have a problem with it being added to the db. All I wanted was a way to filter the Disney stuff out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidAcid View Post
@Lowe: Further simplify animation quality and background picture quality from Laputa and you end up with something similar in 'style' to Wickie. So IMHO you're comparing animation quality here, not style.
Break almost anything down to it's basics and it will be similar so I don't really agree with that arguement.
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  #55  
Old May 11, 2010, 09:09 AM
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Luckily it's pretty clear by inspection what was meant to be "animation" and what is live-action. Neither Avatar nor the latest made-for-Scify-Channel CGI monster movie would qualify for that.
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  #56  
Old May 11, 2010, 09:17 AM
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I think if we consider "anime" like simple cartoons, every form of animation (Disney, japanese, western, ecc...) should be included in the database.
Do you really want to include every tons of native anime compilation on mcs, vinyls, cds of EVERY country of this world? I think it's not simply madness, this is megalomania.
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  #57  
Old May 11, 2010, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by depa View Post
I think if we consider "anime" like simple cartoons, every form of animation (Disney, japanese, western, ecc...) should be included in the database.
Do you really want to include every tons of native anime compilation on mcs, vinyls, cds of EVERY country of this world? I think it's not simply madness, this is megalomania.
That sounds like a challenge. Don't forget you are talking to the people who researched and added almost 19,000 albums just because of their relation to video games.
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  #58  
Old May 11, 2010, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by depa View Post
I think if we consider "anime" like simple cartoons, every form of animation (Disney, japanese, western, ecc...) should be included in the database.
Do you really want to include every tons of native anime compilation on mcs, vinyls, cds of EVERY country of this world? I think it's not simply madness, this is megalomania.
Nah, we will be fine. And nothing tops the japanese anime market anyway.

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  #59  
Old May 11, 2010, 09:59 AM
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@SecretSquirrel: What about Casshern, Immortal and 'Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow' (all released in 2004). Animation of not?

@totally off-topic: Is there any relation between Casshern and the anime series 'Casshern Sins'???

Last edited by LiquidAcid; May 11, 2010 at 10:01 AM.
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  #60  
Old May 11, 2010, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigablah View Post
http://vgmdb.net/game
http://vgmdb.net/anime
http://vgmdb.net/home (for agnostics)
I like this idea. Most of the time I just want to look at game music, but some times I may want to look at anime music, and it's kind of annoying to have to change the filters back and forth every time I want to switch.

We also could make separate branding, subdomains, or even domains while maintaining everything in the same database... Similar to some other sites.
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