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  #1  
Old Oct 18, 2017, 05:53 PM
ᄐv๑–X² ᄐv๑–X² is offline
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Default Discussion on Scope

So since when did we start hosting superhero movies? I haven't seen this movie but is it heavy on animation or something?
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  #2  
Old Oct 18, 2017, 06:31 PM
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Michael Giacchino has some game albums in his discography. I guess that's why..?
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  #3  
Old Oct 19, 2017, 01:10 AM
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So what? This opens a wide door for Film score soundtracks if this is here. If it was a "best of Michael Giacchino" CD and it featured some music from the film okay that's different.

This is a mainstream film score soundtrack.
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  #4  
Old Oct 19, 2017, 02:44 AM
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As we’ve allowed live action adaptations of franchises with manga as its root we have to apply the same standard when deciding on the eligibility of the same situation arising from franchises born out of comic books.
It actually has nothing to do with the composer as he is no longer in the video game realm and I rejected a submission last year when his Star Wars score was added to the database.
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  #5  
Old Oct 20, 2017, 08:43 AM
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I believe this one is here because Giacchino arranges the theme from the animated show, and music from animation is allowed.
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  #6  
Old Oct 20, 2017, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ᄐv๑–X² View Post
So what? This opens a wide door for Film score soundtracks if this is here.
The horror...
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  #7  
Old Oct 22, 2017, 05:15 PM
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I remember a comment or two on this a few years back. Why can't this place just feature the person's video game soundtrack rather than including that person's film soundtracks? Seems unnecessary. I also don't want this place to open the door to include mainstream hollywood film soundtracks. Though it may not look like it now, and it may never go this way, I have seen stuff like this eventually lead to stuff like that, so something like this does indeed rub me the wrong way.
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  #8  
Old Oct 22, 2017, 05:29 PM
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It has been already said this doesn't have anything to do with Giacchino himself (right here in this thread). I suggest reading it a bit more thoroughly, thank you.
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  #9  
Old Oct 22, 2017, 05:50 PM
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I admit i was a bit livid at first and didn't catch a thing or two. I at first thought this place was going to start including mainstream hollywood film soundtracks. Like it would have a thing or two based on some reasoning, and then would eventually lead to this place turning into a general arts and entertainment soundtrack page. I personally am not keen on this place including things outside of video game soundtracks overall, leading into anime and especially comic books/hollywood film. But I am not the owner of this place, plus I don't have to search that section, and it's not dominant either, so I've no reason to complain. I have just seen things in the past start doing things, and then it not only leads to more of it, but also gets overrun with that new thing that completely changes what that place was originally about. But coming back with a more rational mind i think i see what the deal is here, so very well.
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  #10  
Old Oct 23, 2017, 11:07 PM
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It's the never ending "scope creep" that continually gets brought up. SS said earlier this year "We definitely aren't going to cover Sentai or Kaiju" and then not even 1 month later started allowing literally every Sentai album.

If the person behind the wheel isn't willing to put on the brakes, then what's the point in even having brakes?
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  #11  
Old Oct 24, 2017, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by nextday View Post
It's the never ending "scope creep" that continually gets brought up. SS said earlier this year "We definitely aren't going to cover Sentai or Kaiju" and then not even 1 month later started allowing literally every Sentai album.

If the person behind the wheel isn't willing to put on the brakes, then what's the point in even having brakes?
Even though to the defense of what this site stands for you could always just filter your main page to only view liable VGM.But at the end of the day it, this entry just doesn't sit well with me and its ripple effects on the future of this site.


Just a couple of years ago i remember we could'nt link artists without scans. Entry quality, relevance and integrity should be our top priority here. I'd hate this place to turn into a discogs carbon copy, a big pile of shit with incomplete and ubiquitous databases...
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  #12  
Old Oct 24, 2017, 09:05 AM
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Interesting you mention entry quality and such things - I think this is pretty top notch here especially compared to other sites featuring film music releases for example. From what I see we have a community who also really cares about the accuracy of information. And because of that, I wouldn't mind expanding the site to allowing "mainstream" film scores for example - this site here has a quality which I don't find elsewhere, and I'm a fan of both video game scores and movie/television scores... Personally I don't have the fear that quality of information will decline by allowing motion picture-stuff.

Ultimately I'm neutral to this though... I love this site for what it is, at foremost it's about VGM, but it did expand and expand in the past, so all I'm saying I'd love to see this - but if not, no problem either.
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  #13  
Old Oct 24, 2017, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by FPI View Post
I wouldn't mind expanding the site to allowing "mainstream" film scores for example
Well who/what decides what doesn't get added if we allowed only "mainstream" film scores? I think this is better for a separate sister project.
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  #14  
Old Oct 24, 2017, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by dissident93 View Post
Well who/what decides what doesn't get added if we allowed only "mainstream" film scores? I think this is better for a separate sister project.
Agree with that one 100%. The idea of this place including mainstream hollywood film scores doesn't set well with me. As said before, by me and by others, it could lead this place down an ugly and unrecognizable path. I don't want it to be the case of "Video Game Music Database" yet it starts including all these mainstream hollywood film scores, and then the site and forum starts getting an influx of film buffs, and possibly a more casual user base compared to what it is right now. I don't know what it could do, and I am not the one that leads the site, and who knows, maybe it won't, and maybe I don't know better, but still, practices such as this are very tricky. I am not 100% keen on comic and anime soundtracks, but I can tell you right now I can tolerate an anime soundtrack inclusion better than a mainstream hollywood film or even western comic book, because the comic book geekdom is kind of a thing at this moment, and hollywood film, well, is a notable thing. I think the biggest problem with including anime of this caliber is that it appears that can cause this place to lead to something like mainstream hollywood film soundtracks. I think at some point, they need to hit the breaks. It totally feels like it could pave the way for this site seeing a massive sellout, and it could lead this place to becoming too professional, and too casual. Before we know it, the site may end up having a totally different look, may behave different, and it could lead to this place not living up to its name. Only keeping the word 'VGMdb" for recognition purposes, but it will end up standing for nothing. It will just be letters. Perhaps I am stretching things too far, or I have a wild imagination, but you can't deny stuff like this has happened before, and has happened more times than it should have. It's an example of what happens if you have no restraint. But then again, I don't run this site, and I don't have much experience with what it is like dealing with this, so what do I know?
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  #15  
Old Oct 24, 2017, 08:58 PM
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There's around 38,000 album entries which have only 'Game' category selected.

There's 24,000 albums with 'Animation' category only. A certain number of albums with mixed content exists too.

Stopping right here for just a moment and would you honestly say VGMdb is still exactly the same compared to its roots? Even the slogan had changed to "the music of visual arts and games" (and that didn't happen recently).

There are ever present soundtracks of live-action series, movies, documentaries (and so on) that aren't based on anything in particular. They're here because the composers (or rarely vocalists) involved are relevant in the primary fields this database covers so those other albums serve as an example of their "outside" work. Some people are important (or honestly popular) enough that almost all of their discography is present here. Even if some aren't the exact match for the criteria, most "out of scope" albums do get accepted (assuming they're not totally empty/badly submitted entries).

Another category which exists is (print) publication. Around 900 album entries there. For example image albums of manga or novel series that may or may have not received any sort of adaptation to another media format.

Albums that appear dark blue don't have associated category and that's where everything else resides. All the live-action movies, series are there as well. Some of the live-action music albums have the video game as the franchise source (the only kind that was allowed in the beginning). Most of them with manga/(light) novel as the source though. Some that actually have the animated work as the source. Super-sentai music (in broader terms tokusatsu). Also albums not containing music for any media project (no category, no represented product). I guess most of you are not seeing them and only get alarmed on Spiderman and the likes.

As recently told, "out-of scope" entries aren't the problem "as long as their percentages were appropriate". Poor submissions aren't covered (submissions which lack a substantial amount of information). Bad submission can be easily rejected if the reviewer doesn't want to spend the time filling in the blanks.

There's an idea to make portals (which will likely group the game related content again). When's that happening - anyone's guess.

If anything, anime submissions have overshadowed the game ones to a certain extent.

Last edited by Efendija; Oct 24, 2017 at 09:01 PM.
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  #16  
Old Oct 25, 2017, 01:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efendija View Post
I guess most of you are not seeing them and only get alarmed on Spiderman and the likes.
I suppose it is alarming to people like me because I view VGMdb as a niche database. Game music is niche, anime music is niche, doujin music is niche, Hollywood is mainstream. It sticks out like a sore thumb.

I think there needs to be a community discussion about what we want VGMdb to be. The db has become rather large now - 72,000 entries at the time of this post. The main page is pretty much unusable for anyone who came here looking specifically for game music. This can be fixed by changing your preferences, but the average person isn't going to know about that option. Segmenting the db with portals seems like a decent option that wouldn't be too hard to implement. I'd still like to hear other ideas, though, which is why there needs to a proper discussion.
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  #17  
Old Oct 25, 2017, 02:19 PM
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I think nextday pretty much sums up why I am cool with anime music over hollywood and western comic book related soundtrack. The niche. It seems the logic here is "that person may have been involved elsewhere" but I think it may be better off just to deal with their vg soundtracks. Maybe have an 'also worked on' section or list if you really want to detail those. I don't think I agree with having a full page dealing with mainstream hollywood soundtracks. Even if some musician that did video games either worked on it, or it was based on an anime and even worse, a comic book. I actually disagree that including a film based on a video game should be included. I would hit the brakes at a game based on a movie. I feel like this lax attitude is what could eventually lead this place astray. I know there is mention that the subtitle was not a recent addition, I am aware. It may have been there when I came, but I am not 100% certain. But even so, saying that comes off as MTV in the late 90s saying "Oh no, our addition of reality shows among other programs is not a recent addition. It is still mostly music videos. Hell, look, one of our other programs even features music videos in them. Calm down." and look where it's at now.

Again, I am not saying it even will head toward that path, I am just saying that such a lax attitude could very well lead this place down that path. Part of the reason I came to this place because it had that very niche feel that I take to, and it seems nextday either might, or at least he feels this place should stick to its roots. I don't want this place to start feeling crowded and attracting a big mainstream and casual crowd.
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  #18  
Old Oct 25, 2017, 09:14 PM
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We should revise our content limits for sure its getting out of hand. To be honestIy I''ve personally placed entry's here to add for my collection which consisted of solo works featured (but still relevant to arcade releases) that really shouldn't be here. It was only approved for having it completely catalogued to my defense.

So to use as an example (my submission) could it be that there is added entries here to add to members collections number count solely?


Either way at the risk of sounding like a weebo I'd honestly say,

Fuck western comic book movie scores and that added sentai garbage, it has no relevance in this place...
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  #19  
Old Oct 25, 2017, 10:17 PM
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I think a segmentation of the database would be my preferred option. Remaining niche is all well and good but we don’t want to stray into elitism either. Honestly, there are times that the recently updated page of this site must look impenetrable to a casual visitor who just wants to browse some VGM and I think it puts a good number of people off. If we’re not looking to have more people visit, and crucially, feel empowered to contribute to the site then what’s the point?

I don’t want mainstream film scores to end up here on the site as it is and I actually don’t think that will happen but I wouldn’t be against a separate portal linked to VGMdb. Visitor traffic and moderation issues aside, as a film music fan I feel the internet could do with a movie music database that held itself to the standards set here but it couldn’t, let alone shouldn’t, happen within the existing framework.
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  #20  
Old Oct 25, 2017, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimby View Post
I think a segmentation of the database would be my preferred option. Remaining niche is all well and good but we don’t want to stray into elitism either. Honestly, there are times that the recently updated page of this site must look impenetrable to a casual visitor who just wants to browse some VGM and I think it puts a good number of people off. If we’re not looking to have more people visit, and crucially, feel empowered to contribute to the site then what’s the point?

I don’t want mainstream film scores to end up here on the site as it is and I actually don’t think that will happen but I wouldn’t be against a separate portal linked to VGMdb. Visitor traffic and moderation issues aside, as a film music fan I feel the internet could do with a movie music database that held itself to the standards set here but it couldn’t, let alone shouldn’t, happen within the existing framework.
I don't think remaining niche will guarantee elitism will spawn from it. As for the casual visitor, if you mean someone who just found out about this place and wants to look at game scores and is not into getting into forum discussion, then that type of casual is fine. It's this place broadening the audience, drawing in people fans of that other thing that the site does not suggest in its title but aren't into the main subject that's the problem. I would also think the site remaining true to its name would work better for a casual visitor as well. When I casually want to browse a certain thing, my first thought is, if a site promises that, then that's what it will give.

Unless you mean something else with this, this place has included mainstream hollywood film scores. That's precisely what we're talking about. If I mistook what you were saying, scratch this.

The concern here is that there seems to have been a gradual descent going from video games, then anime, which then lead to film adaptations, whether it be japan or hollywood, and that somehow lead to comic books, which leads to even more hollywood film scores. If it keeps up, along with the lax attitude, the place could very well start including more film scores, and thus broadening the audience, drawing in film buffs who may know nothing about vg music.
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  #21  
Old Oct 25, 2017, 11:38 PM
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What I’m talking about is a centralised hub where VGMdb is just one offshoot - and that particular database would be for VGM and VGM alone. Anime, sentai etc. are given there own portals. The scope creep is a concern purely because it muddles things and waters down the original vision for the site. I personally have no interest in half the stuff on here and I don’t think I’m alone on that. By partitioning the site it allows the information to be more focussed and serve the user base that much better.

I was then making the point that film scores could conceivably have its own separate section potentially.
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  #22  
Old Oct 25, 2017, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimby View Post
What I’m talking about is a centralised hub where VGMdb is just one offshoot - and that particular database would be for VGM and VGM alone. Anime, sentai etc. are given there own portals. The scope creep is a concern purely because it muddles things and waters down the original vision for the site. I personally have no interest in half the stuff on here and I don’t think I’m alone on that. By partitioning the site it allows the information to be more focussed and serve the user base that much better.

I was then making the point that film scores could conceivably have its own separate section potentially.
Yeah, I am aware with the last part. Everything else, thanks for clearing that up. IMO, I think they should be separate sites altogether. Plus they should all have their own forums. It's either that or stay vgm entirely, even anime with some restraint.
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  #23  
Old Oct 26, 2017, 04:42 AM
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Personally if it wasn't for the all the hard work people have done for anime stuff, a lot of my personal rips of my CDs would have far less correct info (of course true for VGM as well).

The idea of separate portals is an interesting one, especially if there WERE one for film scores as well -- as mentioned above, there's NOTHING like the database here for them, with all the info and scans, etc but obviously that would be a huge amount of work.
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  #24  
Old Oct 26, 2017, 04:45 AM
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Portals/hub approach is indeed an excellent idea. Still thinking a live-action category should be created in order to filter out this content to begin with (movies, TV shows, sentai, documentaries, stage plays - we're getting these ones too). Maybe as a stopgap or better yet simultaneously with the hub (when that happens, quite a number of albums would require the live-action category applied, several hundreds of the active entries at the moment). There's literally no way to exclude live-action material at the highest level of presentation because the live-action category doesn't exist. Not without applying some more filters in the advanced search each time. No separate forum section is problematic as well, every discussion ends up in the game section, obviously interfering with the genuine game album topics.

During my time, I've rejected some live-action series/movies albums that were connected to artists that don't really need to have them present here. Each rejection was a potential forum talk of why I did it when there was an artist A with an album B which was already included in the DB. It goes both ways: people can be passionate to exclude certain albums as well as include them. It's a tiresome task to defend certain guidelines with its integrity not fully in place because of various circumstances as the time goes on and which add to the inevitable blurriness. Needless to say I stopped moderating/rejecting such entries a long time ago. All this doesn't mean that certain standards don't exist, it means it gets harder to navigate through them.

So yes, segmentation would be the right solution in my opinion too. That would bring back the true focus on video game content exclusively without the events that single out other various content as good or bad or grey, more/less deserving, so to speak. A true video game music database shouldn't have anything else besides video game album (information) content. There isn't something more and something less tolerable so it can stick with the video game content long enough, up to the point where it's not that far off from becoming dominant, IMHO. At the same time, the non-video game content should be definitely moved to portals to keep things healthy so each can thrive in their own respective space. My two cents.
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  #25  
Old Oct 26, 2017, 05:42 AM
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First of all, this discussion should be moved elsewhere.

I am in this project since the beginning as i followed the adventure even before its creation, on SlightyDark and GamingForce forums.
I have been battling for the preservation of the original idea behind "vgmdb" for years but without avail.
Creators and first fans/submitters of vgmdb are now busy with other things in their life, and most of the intern realisation of the website is done by a couple of persons.

The whole problem is to find where do you want to stop being exhaustive.
We started with VGM but at the minute you start listing Japanese composers it also leads to Anime music, which then leads to publication or sentai music.
It is the same with western music, western composers will lead to western anime music and film music (i am looking at you, Michael Giacchino!).

A separation of the genres would be ideal, but can this be ever realised ? Separaring the website at least in 2 or 3 parts while keeping the connections of the composers, that would probably ask a huge amount of work.

For the moment i have completely disabled anything that is not game related because things are getting out of hands, and i truly regret that as a fan and active contributor since the beginning.
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  #26  
Old Oct 28, 2017, 05:22 AM
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For, historical perspective, this is the album that started it all, not so much here, but in the community years before VGMdb was around:

http://vgmdb.net/album/1917

And I might as well add my original design intent from 2005

Quote:
5. Content Tags
Really, this is just another field in the database to denote what the album is (see below), though I think that color coding search results based on the content tag might be worthwhile, and that it deserves it’s own toggles on the search panel.

I envision these tags:

Official – An album that was actually commercially sold.

Enclosure – An album that was included in a Game or Magazine, but not sold separately. Note that enclosure CDs sometimes have their own catalogue number.

Dojin – Unofficial album by a fan arrangement group (One-UP Studios counts as this, since it’s unofficial). The key should be that it was commercially released, so Overclocked Remixes do not count. The GMR community has taken a strong stand against Dojins appearing in the database, but in my opinion, they need to be catalogued too.

Works – An original album by a VG Composer that doesn’t come from a game. This includes solo works like Gikyokuonsou as well as omnibus albums like Ten Plants.

Game Animation – Invariably, some game-related anime albums will end up in the database, so this is here to accommodate that. GMR has quite a few anime albums listed, and there are examples of game-related anime soundtracks that are part of purely game catalogue number runs, so I think the category is necessary for completeness.

Demo Scene – This one is questionable, but there are some albums that qualify. Use it for albums of chip tunes or demo scene music, such as GMO Christmas Songs

I wouldn’t advise the inclusion of Game rips or recordings. There might be a case made for Redbook Audio, but I’d put that off until well in the future.

There’s probably a hierarchy that would be enforced here. For example, if an album contained 8 original works by a composer, and 2 from a game, I would probably tag it as an Official, simply because in my mind, Official is more important than any of the other categories.
The only major changes were part of the Visual Arts rebranding.

---------------------------

Addressing some more specific things, yes I am also concerned that we are covering too much here.

Also, there was a specific complaint that I went back on my statement that we weren't going to cover Sentai music here. I still stand by that statement, however this whole business reveals a flaw in our moderation system, in that trusted editors and staff can do almost whatever they want completely under our radar. Specifically, it looks like Depa added most of those albums in August when most of us in the United States were busy watching the solar eclipse. And then dealing with the normal deluge of crappy anime vocal albums in the regular-member moderation queue, it isn't hard for this stuff to slip through.

My first reaction would be go get rid of the Sentai vocal albums, because the requirements for a vocal album to be eligible as "works" are much higher, and few of those satisfy it. However, they are well submitted and accurate, and that always poses a dilemma because it is hard to find good accurate English language information on some of these. There is also the notion that staff and trusted editors are all leaders here, and many in this very thread have pushed the envelope here (e.g., Effendija with Western Animation).

Some specific ideas
----------------------

1. Portals
We've discussed this for a while, even back when anime was first added and proved disruptive. However, no clear design for this feature ever emerged. It is unclear how to make it work well.

2. Restrict non-anime/game submission
I've been considering restricting the ability to submit out-of-scope albums to trusted editors, or maybe just staff. This is an interface challenge though; I don't want someone to do a lot of work completing an album entry, and then push submit only to find out they can't proceed, so it needs a way to prevent it early. Also, this doesn't solve the problem of trusted editors and staff submitting them, like with the Sentai albums. At the very least, submitters should be required to defend their out-of-scope album.

3. Cull (or mass cull) the database.
I don't really want to do this, but it does get the message out there. But, what to delete. Nobody is currently shepherding all that happy hardcore music, which initially had some overlap with doujin music, so do we get rid of that? And the final arbiter should be: "are we better without this album?"

4. Community (or panel) voting on each out-of-scope album
Maybe, but could turn into a mess.

That is where my thoughts are currently, so don't have any solutions yet. I've rejected 3 out-of-scope albums in this weeks moderation cycle. And whatever else happens, please don't start submitting all the DC or Marvel universe soundtracks.
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  #27  
Old Oct 28, 2017, 06:07 AM
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personally, I see 2 portals (3 if you count vgmdb.net as a default portal)

default portal: vgmdb.net
-> all about game (any like jap or western), game movie, game jpop stuff, game-related live action stuff and composer stuff
1st portal: anime/visual/whatever.vgmdb.net
-> all about anime (any like jap or western), anime movie, anime jpop stuff, anime-related live action stuff and composer stuff
2nd portal: doujin.vgmdb.net -> anything about doujin, demo scene etc.

anything else (that doesn't enter in those categories) should be removed from the site or not submit
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  #28  
Old Oct 28, 2017, 10:04 AM
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2. Restrict non-anime/game submission (to editors/staff)
We're currently part of the problem, so I'm not sure that would work.

3. Cull (or mass cull) the database.
It would be a lot of work to determine what "deserves" to stay. Plus, it would be a waste for lots of well submitted albums to be deleted.

4. Community (or panel) voting on each out-of-scope album
Communities aren't able to moderate themselves. That's why moderators exist.

Which leaves us with...

1. Portals
The original idea and the only real option unless someone comes up with a better idea. The next step would be determine the what and how.
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  #29  
Old Oct 28, 2017, 02:39 PM
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Dag Dag is offline
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My two cents:

VGMdb had a clear, small-ish scope that made contributing fun; now it feels like drops in an ocean.

I don't mind other albums types at all but the lack of organization/separation hurts the site.

I love vgmdb dearly and put many, many hours in it but I feel I have little more add, it was fun times tho.

So I think user retention should be a more pressing concern.
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  #30  
Old Oct 28, 2017, 03:37 PM
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Datschge Datschge is offline
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I honestly don't see the issue. But then again I mostly browse by composer/artist and don't really care in what area they worked, I always prefer completeness of the coverage then.
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