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  #31  
Old Jul 23, 2012, 02:00 AM
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layzee layzee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phonograph View Post
it's not a reason to start saying people are stupid simply because they have different opinions
There's nothing wrong with having different opinions but I suppose it could be argued (which LiquidAcid may or may not be doing) that one could say that people are stupid for having uninformed opinions, or finalising an opinion based on non-facts.

For example, here are a couple of possible scenarios for this particular album (SD2 Arrange) and my opinion on whether that opinion is stupid or not:

Scenario 1
Pre-listen: "What? An SD2 Arrange album? I look forward to it!"
Post-listen: "It turns out that this album is a synth-upgrade style of arrange. And I think this album is good!"

This opinion is valid.

Scenario 2
Pre-listen: "What? An SD2 Arrange album? I look forward to it!"
Post-listen: "It turns out that this album is a synth-upgrade style of arrange. This album is shit!"

This opinion is valid. Although the phrase "This album is shit!" sounds like a statement of fact, I trust that this forum is educated enough to treat that phrase as an opinion, so the acronym "IMO" (in my opinion) is not required.

Scenario 3
Pre-listen: "What? An SD2 Arrange album? I can only assume that it will be a Guilty Gear-style heavy metal arrange because all arrange albums involve guitars! I look forward to it!"
Post-listen: "It turns out that this album is a synth-upgrade style of arrange. This album was not what I was expecting, therefore it sucks!"

The album is what it is and should be treated on its own merits or demerits. One's own pre-conceptions or expectations of what the album is like or should be like is irrelevant. This opinion is invalid and stupid.

In my opinion, of course.

Last edited by layzee; Jul 23, 2012 at 02:14 AM.
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  #32  
Old Jul 23, 2012, 02:26 AM
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That makes sense, though it is curious that he's doing this now (and more crucially, only with a limited number of songs) rather than years ago close to the game's release with all of the songs. For instance the OST album could have been something like this in the first place. Not knocking it, just strikes me as an unusual release both in premise and timing.
Exactly. I don't have a problem with this approach in concept, but it strikes me as odd timing and marketing. What's more, it's incomplete...

Regardless of the site description, the simple title 'Secret of Mana Arrange Album' is somewhat misleading and is bound to raise expectations.
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  #33  
Old Jul 23, 2012, 06:06 AM
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They are doing these Seiken Densetsu arrange albums to celebrate the 20th anniversary of the series. Although techically, this year celebrates the 21st anniversary, but the arrange series project began last year.
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  #34  
Old Jul 23, 2012, 11:11 AM
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Of course these two were "disappointed" because the movie wasn't exactly your typical dance film. I'm calling that simply stupid, because you could figured that out which a bit of Google magic (or _asking_ prior to joining the group). You also can't go into "Transformers" and then complain that it wasn't about gay cowboys.
You might have a point if people bought this album then complained, but you're comparing paying money to see a film to listening to promotional audio clips. You can't compare like for like in that way. That makes no sense.
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  #35  
Old Jul 23, 2012, 01:33 PM
LiquidAcid LiquidAcid is offline
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It makes perfect sense. The absence or presence of money is totally irrelevant to this point.

EDIT: In case my point isn't clear yet. When you're disappointed then this is only because you had a certain expectation about an event (watching movie, listening to music, meeting someone on a blind-date, etc.).

Basing these expectations on non-factual or entirely made up information is what I call stupid. In this case it's better to not have any expectations about the event at all.

Last edited by LiquidAcid; Jul 23, 2012 at 01:53 PM.
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  #36  
Old Jul 23, 2012, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidAcid View Post
Don't want to offend anybody, but the people now voicing their "disappointment" about the album being just a synth quality upgrade are those that didn't do their research properly in the first place. Like Zana pointed out (again) it was crystal clear from the beginning what the purpose of this album was.
Well, this isn't really true, or at least not if you apply this to this scenario. Last year, Square Enix announced arranged albums for the Seiken Densetsu-series, and it was known soon, that Ito, Kikuta und Shimomura would do them. So, the first we got was of course Ito's album. Is it really so stupid to expect the other arrange albums to be something similar? And I'm not talking music-wise, of course I'm aware that these composers have their own styles and preferences, but I mean production-value wise. Let's say I assumed that each album/composer would get a similar kind of budget and/or approach or something. So, sometime later it was announced what this album would be "really" and from that point on I was somewhat dissappointed. I don't see what's the big deal here, and I also fail to see what's stupid in that. Well, if you are looking forward to the album, well, I say, great. I'm not trying to convince you that you have to dislike it.

The problem I mostly have with the album is that it seems like a cheap err, "effort". Producing this album must have cost a lot of time and money. If it would be "complete", I would probably love that approach. Something like a two disc-set, all tracks looping and with "high-quality"-samples? Hell, yes! Awesome! But unfortunetely it seems just to be some sort of "best of", and well, to call it an "Arrange album"... uh, yeah... it's like a selection from an OST from an imaginary DS-remake.
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  #37  
Old Jul 23, 2012, 07:44 PM
Xenofan 29A Xenofan 29A is offline
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It's pointless to compare this to Ito's album, because Hiroki Kikuta has a far better ear for instrumentation than Ito ever had. Ito always sticks with a few simple templates for arranging: piano, check, strings, check, flute, check, and you're good to go! Kikuta, in a single score, provided more diversity than Ito is even capable of. I like what I've heard of the samples for this album so far, and I'm looking forward to its release.
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  #38  
Old Jul 24, 2012, 01:16 AM
LiquidAcid LiquidAcid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FPI View Post
Is it really so stupid to expect the other arrange albums to be something similar?
Yes, it totally is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FPI View Post
And I'm not talking music-wise, of course I'm aware that these composers have their own styles and preferences, but I mean production-value wise.
Production-value is such a fuzzy term. What should it mean it this context? Are you implying that Ito's album has "more" production-value than the upcoming Kikuta album? How do you measure this?
I can just as well claim that it's the other way round.

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Originally Posted by FPI View Post
Well, if you are looking forward to the album, well, I say, great.
My personal opinion about the album is completly irrelevant here.

Again, requoting myself:
Quote:
When you're disappointed then this is only because you had a certain expectation about an event (watching movie, listening to music, meeting someone on a blind-date, etc.).

Basing these expectations on non-factual or entirely made up information is what I call stupid. In this case it's better to not have any expectations about the event at all.
Like you say yourself, you extrapolated non-factual information on the basis of the first album, because you wanted it to be similar. You tricked yourself.



Quote:
Originally Posted by FPI View Post
I'm not trying to convince you that you have to dislike it.
And I'm not trying to convince you that you have to like it. But there's a huge difference between being disappointed with a product and simply not liking it. Because the former is based on having the wrong expectations.

And that's all from me concerning this matter.

Last edited by LiquidAcid; Jul 24, 2012 at 06:50 AM.
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  #39  
Old Jul 24, 2012, 03:56 AM
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Perhaps for SD3, this concept would be more warmly accepted. Some people might be intrigued by how it would sounds like if 8 channels were allocated.
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  #40  
Old Jul 24, 2012, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by LiquidAcid View Post
Yes, it totally is.
Well, then I guess we simply disagree on that one.
Overall, I don't understand why I should believe that expectations in general are supposed to be a bad thing as soon as there's a chance to get dissapointed in the end. Being dissapointed isn't the end of the world. I rather get excited about an announcement instead of saying "Uh!! No! I don't want to get excited - I could be dissapointed! And that's super bad!! Hope I find some facts in Google before I go out of the house today!" Whatever - if this approach works for you, that's fine with me - it don't even want it to work for me. Maybe during my next life, when I'm a robot or something. Or a Vulcan. Or Micky Mouse.

Quote:
Are you implying that Ito's album has "more" production-value than the upcoming Kikuta album? How do you measure this?
Oh, I simply would assume that creating a new arrangement based on an existing track would be more work than simply taking an existing file and applying different synthesizers to it. And, as I said before, it probably would also cost more money.

Quote:
My personal opinion about the album is completly irrelevant here.
But still my personal opinion about the album seems to be a problem for you - wouldn't it be helpful or informative to let me know about what you think about it? Or are you still in that modus where you don't have any expectations, because it could be a "wrong" expectation and you don't want to be dissapointed?

Quote:
Basing these expectations on non-factual or entirely made up information is what I call stupid.
I probably missed it, but where's the non-factual or entirely made up information? As soon as it was clear what this album was about I was dissapointed about the approach. And the dissapointment didn't have all that much to do with what I expected or wanted it to be - if it would have been indeed crystal clear from the start what this album is about, I would have been dissapointed sooner. That's the only difference.

Quote:
In this case it's better to not have any expectations about the event at all.
Yeah, as I commented on that earlier, I feel different about being dissapointed. I haven't seen the new Batman movie yet. Since basing of it's quality on the previous two movies is out of the question (I learned that's stupid) I don't know what to expect right now. Of course I could use Google, and read all kind of stuff to be prepared... maybe I watch the movie as preparation, because why should what other people think about it apply to me? I better decide myself what I like and what not.

Quote:
Like you say yourself, you extrapolated non-factual information on the basis of the first album, because you wanted it to be similar.
A Kikuta-album to be similar to an Ito-album is really the last thing I want, seriously. Uh.

Quote:
But there's a huge difference between being disappointed with a product and simply not liking it. Because the former is based on having the wrong expectations.
And when is the point reached to have the "right" expectations? Now that it is clear what the album is about? Now that some samples are released? Can I have a right expectation based on that? You stated earlier, that Ito's album had inconsistent quality. So, that could of course happen here and that could mean that some of the tracks here are super awesome. Or lackluster. Hard to know in advance - if that would be so easy you probably would have avoided Ito's album right from the start, unless you like listen to something you consider crap.

That aside, all this could still mean that I end up liking this album, of course. But right now, that doesn't matter - I don't know the album... I only have expectations - right ones, wrong ones... hm. I can live with that. ^^
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  #41  
Old Jul 25, 2012, 02:50 AM
Zorbfish Zorbfish is offline
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4 more samples up My only surprise was that I was expecting a more modern upgrade of the synth set, for example like PANDORA'S VOX, but this works too.
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  #42  
Old Jul 26, 2012, 10:25 AM
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Go ahead and count me in the disappointed camp. What an utter waste of time.

Ya wanna know why people are disappointed? Because Ito's album(whether you liked it or not is irrelevant) was actual arrangement. It required some actual original thought and effort; "production value" or whatever you wanna call it. This is just "remastering," if that, and lazily upgrading synths(he couldn't even do live instruments? Really?) isn't "arrangement" any more than FFIV DS was arrangement, and even that was at least the whole soundtrack. It's artistically and creatively bankrupt, and that is inarguable fact. Painting a green house a slightly brighter shade of green does not require talent.

Perhaps LiquidAcid's willful obtuseness would make an iota of sense if anyone was actually comparing this to Ito as if style had anything to do with the argument, but that's just missing the point. The only thing I'm comparing this "arrange" album to, the metric by which it fails to measure against, is every other arrange album ever made, including ones Kikuta himself contributed to. Kikuta's style is quite different from Ito's, as it should, but that does not give him carte-blanche to cop out and call this glorified remastering "arrangement" and sell it as an album, nor is it even indicative of his usual approach to music. Kikuta has done proper arrangement before, even of this very series.

So why the laziness here? Kikuta's style is irrelevant. If he was going to call it an arrange album, ARRANGE already. It's practically false advertising. And yes, I saw the Japanese description of what the album would be before. Sucked ass then, sucks ass now.

The music is still just as great as it always was and everything, and hey, if bumping up synths note-for-note and calling it a day is really all it takes to please you, fine. Your prerogative. But to me, this album represents an enormous missed opportunity and has no clear reason to even exist. Ooh, a tiny fraction of this cool soundtrack sounds slightly better. Whoop-dee-doo. Kikuta absolutely dropped the ball on this one.

Last edited by NaotaM; Jul 26, 2012 at 10:30 AM.
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  #43  
Old Jul 26, 2012, 02:37 PM
LiquidAcid LiquidAcid is offline
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Ohooo, now the people from ffshrine come over to lecture us about "production value" and talent. MUAHAHA, what an utter waste of time :P
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  #44  
Old Jul 26, 2012, 02:44 PM
NaotaM NaotaM is offline
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A post as worthless as this album. How apropos.
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  #45  
Old Jul 27, 2012, 06:17 PM
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that is inarguable fact
... no it isn't?

Much as I understand where you're coming from, you can't say things like that and expect to be taken seriously! It's very much in the domain of arguable opinion. There are very very few inarguable facts when it comes to creative fields, very little is black and white.

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he couldn't even do live instruments? Really?
He could but chose not to. This is also a pretty bogus attitude to me which I see all the time around videogame music fan communities; supremacy of orchestral/live or "real" instruments or whatever. If it's what you like then great, I do too sometimes! But it isn't inherently better. I can think of arrange albums which are also little more than sound upgrades and they're great. My only beef with this album really is that it's very incomplete. It seems to me that sound upgrades work better when the entire soundtrack is included... the number of songs is what lead me to believe this would be a more typical arrange album with remixed songs, so it's an anomaly in that sense.

Quote:
Painting a green house a slightly brighter shade of green does not require talent
I've never heard of people painting green houses...

Do you have experience writing music yourself? There is some artistry involved in something like this sound upgrade. To what extent/degree is another debate, but regardless, the point is it doesn't matter, who cares? It's irrelevant how much 'talent' went into making something, not least because different people have different ideas of what substantiates talent. All that matters is the bottom line, that the artist has made what they envisioned making and expressed what they wanted to express, and whether people enjoy it or not. Even ridiculous intellectualising musos like myself realise that music isn't a competition where we're trying to dicksize against eachother. Musicians are more than peacocks, as this release shows; Kikuta made what he wanted to make. That is FAR more legitimate than making music for the sake of flexing your musical muscles (not that they're mutually exclusive, but there is a case of priorities I feel.)
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  #46  
Old Jul 27, 2012, 06:41 PM
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It's been a little while since I last heard these tunes. Kikuta had such a unique style. Love it. Can't wait to hear Meridian Dance. At least the sample upgrades and production here sounds better than say Final Fantasy IV DS, which I absolutely hate. Should be a decent listen!
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  #47  
Old Jul 27, 2012, 07:16 PM
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I like ffiv ds ost, but I don't know if it's like what you can find on ds/psp
however, I must admit that my first listening hadn't convinced me

I relistened to it when I learned it was used for the psp remake (I deeply hate 3/ds)
pix and videos on youtube made me like it, but the after years "ost" didn't have the same effect

(note: sorry, speaking of ffiv in a sd thread)
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  #48  
Old Jul 27, 2012, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Blitz Lunar View Post
... no it isn't?

Much as I understand where you're coming from, you can't say things like that and expect to be taken seriously! It's very much in the domain of arguable opinion. There are very very few inarguable facts when it comes to creative fields, very little is black and white.
Except that you don't even try to argue it, so I'm not sure what the point is of wasting my time with semantics. But please, enlighten on how it's apparently totally artistically valid and unique to do nothing more to original music than upgrade the synth work? I'm waiting to hear this.

(And I'm listening to the samples as we speak and it fails even at it's intended purpose. The difference in sound quality is negligible at best; Fear of the Heavens may as well be the exact same track. It's all just louder, that's it. Nobody needs this.



Quote:
He could but chose not to. This is also a pretty bogus attitude to me which I see all the time around videogame music fan communities; supremacy of orchestral/live or "real" instruments or whatever. If it's what you like then great, I do too sometimes! But it isn't inherently better.
Why then? Why just stick to upgraded synth? That's just lazy and underwhelming? It's an arrange album. For a series anniversery. If this was all he was gonna do, he could do this literally any old time. I understand he works freelance now and is without the luxury of studio perks, but he could still have done SOMETHING interesting.

Oh, and sorry, but live instruments are "just better" than synth alternatives, barring such case that the performers are lobotomized. Sorry, but it's true. Composers only use midi in the first place when they have no other choice. But again, feel free to point out these apparent albums that only upgrade synths and manage to be great and not just lazy tripe.

Quote:
Do you have experience writing music yourself? There is some artistry involved in something like this sound upgrade. To what extent/degree is another debate, but regardless, the point is it doesn't matter, who cares?
No there isn't. Calling a synth upgrade, and a barely noticeable one at that, an arrange album is pathetic and boring and requires no talent whatsoever. Technical skill with audio equipment, yes. Musicianship, absolutely not. Even the amateurs at OCRemix turn our more compelling stuff than this. If they really had announced this was all Kikuta was gonna do with this at Day 1, instead of months and months and months after the announcement, during which a far more interesting album was released, that'd still be dumb but at least I wouldn't get my hopes up and could ignore it. This has no value. If you have the original, you've heard it all before. If you don't...find it. This is less than half the music and it sounds exactly the same.

I'm done arguing. The album's just a huge letdown and there's no excuse for it. Kikuta arranging his own, best work should've have been something special, and all he wants to do is slap some sheen on classics. Yawn. Enjoy it all you want, but I gotta say; when Kenji Ito outperforms you on literally every level, it's time to reevaluate your capabilities.
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  #49  
Old Jul 28, 2012, 01:12 AM
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Except that you don't even try to argue it, so I'm not sure what the point is of wasting my time with semantics. But please, enlighten on how it's apparently totally artistically valid and unique to do nothing more to original music than upgrade the synth work? I'm waiting to hear this.
I did argue it, but ok, I'll repeat myself.

Quote:
It's artistically and creatively bankrupt
Firstly, making a big claim like that should put the burden of proof on you rather than me. Nonetheless...

Timbre and sound production are aspects of writing music. To some people, the superficial gloss is very important and can make or break the listening experience and their enjoyment, because it constitutes the sound itself. But it isn't just that. It isn't like there's just one way to do a sound upgrade. The artist is faced with infinite choices about what sounds to use, what effects to use, how to mix it and so on. And where there is choice, there is creativity. So how can it be creatively bankrupt? Creativity is part of that process.

What it boils down to is this: if it's at all conceivable that someone would prefer these versions of the songs to their SNES counterparts (and it is easily possible), then it's artistically valid. It is that simple. What you are saying is that it's lazy, and I don't particularly disagree. The intellectual prowess (or lack thereof) that went into it is important to you. The idea that people might want to hear essentially the same songs but "better" or "different" is trite to you, because you've evolved and refined your taste in music. Fair enough if that's what works for you, but through speaking in such objective black and white terms you've failed to understand that there are other people with different value systems to yours.

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Technical skill with audio equipment, yes. Musicianship, absolutely not.
This is fallacious as I just explained because they can't be separated, the humanity and personality cannot be divorced from music writing/production. Doing something like this album isn't a matter of procedure. Okay it's a good deal MORE procedural than completely re-arranging the songs, but picking out the sounds you want to use for a song is musicianship by itself, it's part of the process and the vision. It's weird to me how you don't "get" that, because it's beneath you or whatever, idk.

Quote:
This has no value. If you have the original, you've heard it all before.
If that's what you think, fine, but you can't claim that universally. What if someone doesn't like the "sharpness" of the original SNES songs? What if someone thinks the samples were ugly and made it difficult for them to enjoy the music? I've heard that criticism of SoM before. This isn't hard to understand. That alone gives this album value.

Quote:
Oh, and sorry, but live instruments are "just better" than synth alternatives. Sorry, but it's true.
I realise I'd likely be outnumbered on this one, but there is more to sounds/samples than how much they resemble a real instrument with a real instrument being at the top of the pile. Sounds are unique. You know people these days write using SNES soundfonts and things, and that isn't out of compromise, it's because the sounds speak in a way that large sample libraries and recorded instruments wouldn't, there's a dimension to the music that wouldn't be there otherwise. They convey an idea or a feeling or whatever. You know if you record a flute you'll always get the sound of a flute. But sampled flutes... they'll always sound different, unique, possibly even bespoke to the song/soundtrack. It comes down to intention as well. If you're intending the obviously fake samples to be used as a replacement for real ones then it's going to be bad most likely. If you work with the sounds themselves with the full understanding that they're fake, the results will likely be much better, and depending on what you're doing, maybe more suitable than live instruments.

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feel free to point out these apparent albums that only upgrade synths and manage to be great and not just lazy tripe.
a few I can remember off the top of my head. I gave the first four 5 stars.

http://vgmdb.net/album/2145
http://vgmdb.net/album/5920
http://vgmdb.net/album/2091
http://vgmdb.net/album/15305
http://vgmdb.net/album/798 (partially)
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  #50  
Old Aug 2, 2012, 03:20 PM
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Interesting tweet?
http://twitter.com/Hiroki_Kikuta/sta...13531636625408
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  #51  
Old Aug 6, 2012, 05:16 PM
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I like the samples. Since the SNES had (has) superb sound quality, anything similar is very interesting to my ears. Of course, I have a strong bias, since I grew up playing SNES games.

I also want to mention I am appreciative of "slightly upgraded" albums, like the recent remaster of Streets of Rage. While not jaw-dropping, it does sound better than the original Mega Drive versions. This Secret of Mana album is similarly improved upon the SNES/SFC originals, based on the samples.
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  #52  
Old Aug 8, 2012, 01:01 PM
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I bought this album mostly to support Kikuta-san and have a collectable, but I'm in the same boat with Jodo Kast in that I liked the sound of the SNES and synth upgrades are nice, much like with the Remastered Tracks Rockman Zero and following albums.
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  #53  
Old Aug 11, 2012, 10:03 AM
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I'll take Kikuta's synth upgrades over Ito's recent arrangements anyday ...

(eventhough I worship his snes work era)
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  #54  
Old Aug 15, 2012, 04:31 PM
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Wow, what a shit storm.

Anyway, if you like Secret of Mana's soundtrack there's no reason you won't like this album. This release is all about nostalgia. With game music being more available now, it makes sense that Kikuta would want to put something out there similar to the original for fans of the original who probably never picked up the soundtrack. Don't really feel this is marketed to hardcore fans of GAME MUSIC, but rather fans of GAMES.

Necessary for us? Probably not. But I bet this will sell a ton to mainstream gamers because the game and soundtrack are so loved.
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  #55  
Old Aug 15, 2012, 10:36 PM
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you are all crazy
like, really legit crazy
okay
thanks
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  #56  
Old Aug 17, 2012, 12:47 AM
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Nothing wrong with debate.
I think it'll make more sense if there's a volume II or something later. I dunno if even three volumes would cover all the songs though. too bad
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  #57  
Old Aug 21, 2012, 11:43 AM
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Our English tracklist had track 12 as "Machines". It should be "Machineries". I fixed it.
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Old Aug 21, 2012, 11:53 AM
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Also, shouldn't the English track name translations be consistent with the OST? Seems like we're using outdated translations here.
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Old Aug 21, 2012, 12:00 PM
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I listened to it and I must say I'm disappointed (I maybe expected too much)
I don't know whether it's my speakers but that prophecy track has really something wrong like the sample used for it had "noises" or something
even after several listenings, I can't happen to like it as I like other arrange albums (i.e. som+)
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Old Aug 23, 2012, 10:47 AM
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Definitely of one the worst releases this year, IMHO. At least from Square Enix.
The concept was clear from the beginning, neverless, as Chris said, the title "Arrange Album" is absolutely misleading and irritating.
Apart from this, many tracks are TOO LONG with NO new or original material within. Just listen to the three minutes of "Prophecies" and you'll get mad by any means! (oh and the "noise" apparently are thunder sound effects, aren't they?)

One of the best things about this album is easily the sweet cover art

Last edited by Mac_Tear; Aug 23, 2012 at 10:49 AM.
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