#61
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Also I'm not sure if this has been touched on, but when romanizing titles I think proper casing should be used unless it's explicitly written in an alternate way (glorious upper case etc.)
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#62
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I'm beginning to think it would be easier to have separate fields for all these different types of titles (e.g. "English Original", "Japanese Original", "English Original Substituting Official Game Titles", "Romanized", and so on), and then have the display field selected programmatically and based on user options.
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#63
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Yeah, it searches all of them. Quote:
By these new guidelines, the 1st and 4th line would be swapped. I forgot about this one. It turns out that the macron is part of the official title in English, so technically we should include it everywhere. I think the European accented characters are part of the latin character set, though I think we have a precedent of exchanging ß for ss. |
#64
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Anyway, some examples would be helpful to illustrate. How would you title this album as it appears on Lantis' site. Compare to our entry here. (Note, this may be a trick question, in that it's debatable whether Lantis is actually trying to communicate a title here. Their format looks more like Platform Category "Game" / Classification. Still, it's what we've got) One other point: quite a few albums -- possibly the majority -- don't have an official mention on a current publisher's webpage. I'd be curious to see some more examples. I'm not against it, and there have been times that I liked the title on the official site better (especially when it was more descriptive), but I don't know where to fit this in, generally. Quote:
Two things that concern me:
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#65
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All that is to be ironed out in the hierarchy now is how things like capitalization and title sourcing (from where we should take certain titles; e.g. publisher's site, obi, etc.) should be handled. Small topic: When I changed the title for the Aria/Dawn of Sorrow OST, I had no idea that it actually had the Romanized title printed on the spine (thus again, making me contradict the point I initially made about the Circle of the Moon OST). In this case, would we list this title only under the Romanized title section rather than in the Alternate title section? I think my only support for fan translations over Romanizations is the fact that a large majority of our tracklists are handled this way (and thank God, too).
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hi~ Last edited by Kaleb.G; Mar 1, 2010 at 08:10 PM. |
#66
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Edit: also this search for that title gives 104 results whereas searching for the title in the database gives us 14 results (both result counts are without omitted results.) I can't think of too many off the top of my head, they're out there however (you presented one more.) Quote:
Last edited by Ira; Mar 1, 2010 at 08:23 PM. |
#67
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Here's another. Character Song & Drama CD vs Character File. Here is a TV Anime "D.C.~Da Capo~" Hatsunejima Best: D.C. ~Da Capo~ Best Selection. This one is an ... Original Soundtrack Original Soundtrack. I wonder if we should go with the wording "Best choice of [Front Cover, Side, Obi, Website]", and leave it up to discretion, since no single one manages to work for all cases. It's fine because the character set we are using allows searches with or without the macrons. Try searching on Ōkami and see. (Probably not fine for ß) |
#68
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Ah, well that simplifies things then. |
#69
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Tracklists get translated, but we still Romanize names in them. 東京 becomes Tokyo, not Eastern Capital (which we could get by translating the kanji one-by-one.) |
#70
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So could you determine what's the official and best capitalization of kimikiss and amagami?
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#71
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#72
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This album is another case where I can't break the capitalization that well. Last edited by Cedille; Mar 1, 2010 at 09:43 PM. |
#73
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#74
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TVアニメ『キミキス pure rouge』 <- Platform 『Game Name』 キャラクターソングアルバム <- Album Title, without Game Name Basically, official sites and vendors don't always provide correct information, as given on the album packaging. Both titles, tracklists and other information can be wrong since they don't necessarily have the same quality control (and anal-ness) we do - additionally information can be put up on sites before the album is finalized, and then never corrected. It just seems illogical to follow such 'third-party' information ahead of what the album actually gives us. When we have products up though, and when it comes to choosing how to display the name for a given product, then I think we can use the official site and such to determine what would be most fitting. |
#75
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#76
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The order of priority we've been using: 1. obi/spines 2. other parts of the album packaging <- if no obi/spine info is available 3. official sites, vendors, release lists, fan sites (etc) listing the album <- if no scan/physical album info is available. can often be considered "better than nothing" or "for the time being" since it may be; based on non-final info, merely of a descriptive nature (we see this on release lists a lot), not otherwise a reflection of 1 or 2. |
#77
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I'd rather think this is Front vs Obi/Spine/etc. rather than Front vs websites. TV anime "Kimikiss pure rouge" is printed on the Obi, and possibly somewhere else (like the spine) and I assume the official site and vendors were based on such.
And "Amagami" on the official site also can just be one stylistic form Personally, if "amagami" is consistently printed on the albums, I'd go with it, but it's of course my preference. |
#78
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I chose KimiKiss Character Song Album as an example, because all of those sites miss the "*" that is clearly on the cover, and which we've included on our title.
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#79
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#80
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What if we use this guideline: Use the title verbatim if it's printed in clearly discernable Latin font (anywhere on the package, priority going to the cover and the obi); if it's a stylized font or logo graphic, use what's closest to an "official" transcription. Even if the album version of the product title differs from the official transcription, we'll still have the product field to compensate for it. My earlier stance might have given a bit too much emphasis to the product trademark -- after some consideration, I'm now of the view that the album title field is for the album rather than the associated product, so if the album publisher chooses to print the title differently, we'll just go along with it (within the bounds of common sense). (Just to clarify; the above pertains to albums that don't already have official transcriptions provided by the album publisher) |
#81
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#82
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Wait, that's right. I was thinking Display #1 states to have it replaced with the official English game titles.
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#83
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I think that romanization should probably prevail in most cases for Display#1, even on higher hierarchy than the english text found on CDs.
This is because romanized is 100% accurate (provided you romanize it correctly), while english text found on CDs is often full of typos or even less than accurate when it comes to translations. Case in point: KICA 7760. Display#1 should be the actual third line ("Gekka no Yasoukyoku") We have english text here http://vgmdb.net/db/covers.php?do=view&cover=33097 as Gekka no Nocturne, but I'd prefer to go with the romanization, since english clashes with other sources (ie from the game: "Nocturne in the Moonlight"). |
#84
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These Dracula albums are all starting to run together, but where does that "Nocturne in the Moonlight" come from? It doesn't seem to be on the scans.
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#85
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It was from the text in the game's intro (japanese one iirc). If you greenlight me, I'm submitting changes ^^
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#86
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It seems like they missed an "X" when they wrote the Romanized title on the spine.
What does everyone think about these kinds of official titles that come from the Japanese game title? I hadn't considered that as a possible source for anything. |
#87
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I think that if they are interesting and / or well known, they may be a good fourth line (Alternative). Useful for search purpose.
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#88
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I've been too indecisive and meandering with my discussion thus far, so I'm going to tone it down to the essentials.
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If the Display title is attempting to make an easy read for English speakers, then it shouldn't be a Romanized title unless there are no other reasonable English alternatives. Most English speakers can't make sense of many Romanizations. Sure, they can read it (and maybe even even pronounce it), but it's gibberish to them. How will any typical English-speaking game music fan know that "Gacha Mecha Stadium Saru Battle" is actually "Ape Escape: Pumped & Primed"? Likewise, I've never heard of "Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow" referred to as "Akumajo Dracula Sougetsu no Juujika". It's just inconvenient. And again, I am all for maintaining official information. But when we already have the Original and Romanized fields used up, what's left to use the Display for?
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#89
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I'll try to reply each relevant point to clarify my stance (to myself, then to others). "Of course, it can't be complete accuracy, because the Original title is the most accurate." Yes, Original is the most accurate, but it requires the use of foreign (non-latin) alphabet. Therefore I think a good goal for the Display line would be "the most accuracy possible" without recurring to foreign alphabets. "If the Display title is attempting to make an easy read for English speakers, then it shouldn't be a Romanized title unless there are no other reasonable English alternatives." "If" - but this criteria loses some of its importance if, as Squirrel says, the search function does search in all the four title lines. In other words, if I am able to search "Castlevania" and obtain the "Akumajo Dracula" albums, it's not so vital that the Display line does look for English alternatives to romanization. If I search Ape Escape and I obtain Sarugecchu CDs, I most likely will have a look at them, learning something in the process. "Most English speakers can't make sense of many Romanizations. Sure, they can read it (and maybe even even pronounce it), but it's gibberish to them." I appreciate the idea to keep the site entry-level, although, let's not lose perspective. The average reader here has already a quite advanced knowledge of one or more of these fields: videogames, videogame music, videogame series, localization issues, and such. We are talking of a community geared towards obtaining soundtracks which, for the most part, are on the grey import market. I'm pretty sure the average Joe here has heard of Sarugetchu, and if he hasn't, it won't take long for him to go around that. Am I advocating then to stay "obscure" and "niche" just for the sake of it? No, not at all - it's good to provide easy read and as many possible translations and options. But since it's a database focused on gathering information, it would be better to stay a little more strict to the album's information. Likewise, I've never heard of "Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow" referred to as "Akumajo Dracula Sougetsu no Juujika". It's not so uncommon, actually - at least in CV forums. But continuing on the example, I've never heard of someone calling the "Akumajo Dracula Best" albums "Castlevania Best". The majority of these albums has never reached officially west (think on the so many Castlevania related cds that are not specifically soundtracks) - it's a bit of a stretch to apply to these Japanese albums the official English name of the games they are based on. I am all for maintaining official information. But when we already have the Original and Romanized fields used up, what's left to use the Display for? In my view, Display should be basically Romanized. Either that, or based on English text already present on the album. I can reverse your question and say: when we have a fourth line for "alternative" titles (english translations, games' titles etc.) why do we have to mess around with the first Display line? That's my two cent so far, although I still have some doubts myself. ^^; Last edited by The Gambler; Mar 3, 2010 at 05:22 PM. |
#90
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We are spinning in circles here, which means a likely outcome will be sticking with discretion on an album-by-album basis. We might be able to adopt pieces of this, as the disagreement is really only on the Display title.
It's useful that we are looking at specific cases to test this problem out. In this case, we have these candidates for Display title:
Title 2 was used in our community, presumably before title 3 was known. The guideline I proposed above would rank title 1 as the Display title by virtue of it being the only English title on the album. The modified guideline I mentioned to Ira would give the submitter discretion to choose the best title from multiple sources, and would also probably end up with title 1, unless the Japanese game loading screen is added to the list of sources that can be used to build the best possible title. |
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