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  #1  
Old Jul 29, 2015, 12:53 AM
VyseLegend VyseLegend is offline
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Default "Harukanaru Toki no Kanata e" translation research efforts

I came. Pre-order'd.

Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross Arrange Album / "Harukanaru Toki no Kanata e" (This title will be released on October 14, 2015.)

My tentative translation;

"Toward the distant time long past/on the other side/over yonder"

Last edited by VyseLegend; Jul 29, 2015 at 01:07 AM.
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  #2  
Old Jul 29, 2015, 04:58 AM
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"Harukanaru Toki no Kanata e" is a track title from the original Chrono Trigger soundtrack, and there's apparently an official translation for it: "Outskirts of Time".
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Old Jul 29, 2015, 05:52 AM
VyseLegend VyseLegend is offline
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Oh yea, It occurred to me that I saw that subtitle somewhere before, guess that track was it. But if we are going by that title, the translation is incomplete. I think more accurate would be like "towards the outskirts of time", or "Towards the distant reaches of time".

Last edited by VyseLegend; Jul 29, 2015 at 06:16 AM.
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Old Jul 29, 2015, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by VyseLegend View Post
Oh yea, It occurred to me that I saw that subtitle somewhere before, guess that track was it. But if we are going by that title, the translation is incomplete. I think more accurate would be like "towards the outskirts of time", or "Towards the distant reaches of time".
It's still the official translation though, even if it's not literal or complete.
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Last edited by Illidan; Jul 29, 2015 at 09:30 PM.
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Old Jul 29, 2015, 11:55 PM
VyseLegend VyseLegend is offline
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It's still the official translation though, even if it's not literal or complete.
I don't see any evidence that there is an official translation of the title for this album. Previous Chrono Trigger albums notwithstanding, isn't it the prudent choice to go with the accurate translation rather than the truncated one?
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Old Jul 30, 2015, 12:00 AM
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I don't see any evidence that there is an official translation of the title for this album. Previous Chrono Trigger albums notwithstanding, isn't it the prudent choice to go with the accurate translation rather than the truncated one?
Personally I wouldn't include a translation at all, but since it has been added then I think it's better to go with the official one. The album title is clearly a reference to the CT track, I don't really think we should ignore that and make a new translation.
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  #7  
Old Jul 30, 2015, 12:09 AM
VyseLegend VyseLegend is offline
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Personally I wouldn't include a translation at all, but since it has been added then I think it's better to go with the official one. The album title is clearly a reference to the CT track, I don't really think we should ignore that and make a new translation.
The main problem is that the translation is not correct.
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Old Jul 30, 2015, 12:22 AM
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No fan translations among the album title lines, regardless of accuracy. Tracklists are a different matter, you can submit a literal translation for a complete tracklist if you wish, when it becomes possible.

Also yes, I've decided to add it, for help with the eventual searches based on an existing reference. If there wasn't one to begin with, no eng title at all should have been added.

Last edited by Efendija; Jul 30, 2015 at 12:31 AM.
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  #9  
Old Jul 30, 2015, 02:03 PM
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The official translation of the Chrono Trigger track that shares the album's name (though not necessarily a literal one) is "To Far Away Times": https://itunes.apple.com/gb/album/bi...07?i=324081819
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Old Jul 30, 2015, 04:10 PM
VyseLegend VyseLegend is offline
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The official translation of the Chrono Trigger track that shares the album's name (though not necessarily a literal one) is "To Far Away Times": https://itunes.apple.com/gb/album/bi...07?i=324081819
Thank you. That translation is accurate. Btw it wasn't myself who added the title to the entry to begin with, but I noticed it was there. I figure it should either be removed or replaced with something resembling what the title actually says, which is why I added "toward". But if you guys insist on maintaining some tendentious viewpoint in regards to "official" translations, this will end up confusing site visitors.

Last edited by VyseLegend; Jul 30, 2015 at 04:14 PM.
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  #11  
Old Jul 30, 2015, 07:02 PM
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That is what the alternate title lines are for, to assist with searchability.
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  #12  
Old Jul 30, 2015, 08:08 PM
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Oh yes, it slipped my mind there's that one too. Outskirts of Time's the earliest (also on The Brink of Time '95 arrange album if it means anything) but yes, the titles can be different and adjusted over the years, especially for older games even by the companies themselves.

If this particular arrange album maybe ends up with an eng title somewhere, it'll likely be one of these two.

Last edited by Efendija; Jul 30, 2015 at 08:20 PM.
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  #13  
Old Jul 30, 2015, 08:29 PM
VyseLegend VyseLegend is offline
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Is there any proof that Outskirts of Time is the earliest and therefore "official translation". I'm struggling to find out the real source of that phrase. It looks like it was in the PS1 sound test for the overseas release of Chrono Trigger, but does that really count as an official translation over the two official album releases we have?

Does this one little image count as an official translation of the new album?
http://vgmdb.net/db/covers.php?do=view&cover=41440

That album sucked anyway we'd be better off ignoring it.

I'd also like to point out another logical fallacy here. You guys claim this new album has an 'official translation' already, but in fact none has been given. An old translation published for a track of the same name doesn't really count as an official entry for the title for this new album. Whoever decided to add the fallacious translation to begin with is at fault here, imo.

Last edited by VyseLegend; Jul 30, 2015 at 08:55 PM.
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Old Jul 30, 2015, 09:10 PM
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I (or anyone else) don't claim this album has an "official translation" because it currently does not. All I did was adding a title (now titles) on alternate lines that can help with the searches and because of the popularity of CC/CT. If you want to call that a fallacy, I don't mind.

Also, localized titles can be added at any time on alternate title lines when the album doesn't have English title absolutely anywhere on the packaging so it still applies based on helping the searches.

Last edited by Efendija; Jul 30, 2015 at 09:17 PM.
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  #15  
Old Jul 30, 2015, 09:26 PM
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Vyse: http://vgmdb.net/album/2799

Regardless, "To Far Away Times" is also an official translation, since it appears on the DS tracklist (thanks Chris)

Anyway, the fact is none of them are "official" for *this* album, and thus it is simply a matter of trivia
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  #16  
Old Jul 30, 2015, 09:33 PM
VyseLegend VyseLegend is offline
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Yea, I agree its a matter of trivia until Square release an official album title for an English release. However I just wanted to point out that, that a title affixed to a track of the same name is not necessarily accurate. Its just misleading to throwing the term 'outskirts of time' out there like it applies when its just a poetic rendition of what is actually said.
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Old Jul 30, 2015, 10:18 PM
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Album titles are not necessarily beholden to literal accuracy. Just like track titles, poetic license can apply as well. Still, our policy is to always defer to official sources, so if Square for some reason decides to title this "Towards the Kanata of a Harukanaru Time" on their website, we'll put that as the title. In the absence of such, we can *refer* to previous translations in the appropriate context simply for the sake of consistency (and searchability, as mentioned).
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  #18  
Old Jul 31, 2015, 10:10 AM
RFGalaxy RFGalaxy is offline
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I don't tend to think of the English titles as "translations" of the Japanese titles, but rather, as alternate titles written in English. Call it splitting hairs if you will, but my point is that translating a part of an album yourself versus using something that's on the album's actual printed material are two different things and the former should not supersede the latter for the sake of some greater kind of "accuracy". Example: track 3-13 from Poison Pink is Kouk the Fire!! in English and 「胸いっぱいのククを」 in Japanese. Translating the Japanese does not give you Kouk the Fire!! ; there are no exclamation points or other emphasis characters and 胸いっぱい is not fire. Yet checking the booklet will give you both the titles for this track and thus they are both the actual titles in their respective languages. You can now translate the Japanese if you want, and as correct as your translation may turn out, it is a different title and does not supersede the given English title as "more accurate" somehow.

So no, "throwing the term" Outskirt of Time is not misleading, it has been applied to 遥かなる時の彼方へ in many instances and is a recognizable English title in the context of Chrono Trigger. Go to some other game that uses that same phrase and it may be different, but in the Chrono Trigger universe the two titles have been linked, proper translation or not

Last edited by RFGalaxy; Jul 31, 2015 at 11:18 AM.
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  #19  
Old Aug 3, 2015, 01:34 AM
VyseLegend VyseLegend is offline
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Im not even that big on literal accuracy of the translations. That's almost impossible considering the grammatical differences between Japanese and English.

BUT we have to take into account some things, in order to decide on the most appropriate approach.

The two original sources of any credibility (excluding Tokyopop, they were jokers) that I can locate for "Outskirts of Time" are the Brink of Time arrange CD, and the PS1 English Sound Test for Chrono Trigger from FF Chronicles.

Does either of these really count as an official, published source of the original source title? In my mind, they appear to be secondary, being not taken off of an official published OST for Chrono Trigger where the original title is "Harukanaru toki no kanata e", with one being an arrangement with no mention at all of the original CT track title, and the other being a hidden sound test rather than a officiated work or translation - one with no sourcing as to its methodologies nor a published work in and of itself.

As I hinted, on the Brink of Time arrangement CD, there is no Japanese title for the track "outskirts of Time' anywhere on the back cover, or - as far as I can tell - anywhere inside the booklet, which leads me to think that there is a chance that this rendition of the title is is simply a poetic re-arranged turn of phrase for the original title "harukanaru toki no kanate e" rather than official translation, in the same vein as the music is arranged compared to the original. Thusly, if true, it shouldn't be taken as genuine translation of the phrase pertaining to "SQEX-10501"s' title, if in fact that title is in reference to the original track off the Chrono Trigger OSV.

I would also like to point out that there is a real possibility that the translators of the PSX FF Chronicles CT sound test simply copied-and-pasted this translation off of the Brink of Time booklet or a listing somewhere on the internet referring to this track as "Outskirts of Time" based solely on this poetic-license driven rendition disseminated via the Brink of Time CD, as early as June 1995.

And I don't take Tokypop's release (http://vgmdb.net/album/2799) as a serious source of any translations because they may as well have made everything up on the spot given their captive, pilfered audience in desperate need of more affordable (but still overpriced) domestic releases of highly expensive imported Japanese game OSTs at the time. Who's to say they did not copy and paste the title off of either the PSX sound test or the Brink of Time CD, or a misinformed internet listing for that matter.

But I digress - does anyone know of any evidence of a translation, citing the original "harukanaru toki no kanata e" as "Outskirts of Time" predating the June 25, 1995 release of the "Brink of Time" arranged CD? (http://vgmdb.net/album/298) Because that would go a long way in resolving this debate.


2. There are at least two, official published sources originating from Square Music/Square Enix themselves which translates the original, official Chrono Trigger Soundtrack for its English release - and in each case it is given as "To far away/far off times" and in neither case is it given as "Outskirts of Time."

Sources:

A. https://itunes.apple.com/gb/album/bi...07?i=324081819 9 (SNES vers.)

B. https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/ch...ck/id324080907 (DS vers.)


In conclusion, I have seen a variety of "translation" of the original title as "Outskirts of Time", with none being apparently official or direct. This is why I think the title "Outskirts of Time" is, until a title is officially given out by Square Music, absolutely "unofficial" compared to "to far away times."

And whats the likelihood of a mistranslation becoming officiated anyhow?

Thanks. For the reasons explicated above, I seriously think the title "Outskirts of Time" should be expunged from the listing for the time being.

Last edited by VyseLegend; Aug 3, 2015 at 01:43 AM.
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  #20  
Old Aug 3, 2015, 02:12 AM
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Originally Posted by VyseLegend View Post
As I hinted, on the Brink of Time arrangement CD, there is no Japanese title for the track "outskirts of Time' anywhere on the back cover, or - as far as I can tell - anywhere inside the booklet, which leads me to think that there is a chance that this rendition of the title is is simply a poetic re-arranged turn of phrase for the original title "harukanaru toki no kanate e" rather than official translation, in the same vein as the music is arranged compared to the original. Thusly, if true, it shouldn't be taken as genuine translation of the phrase pertaining to "SQEX-10501"s' title, if in fact that title is in reference to the original track off the Chrono Trigger OSV.
http://vgmdb.net/db/covers.php?do=view&cover=41439 (top left)

Quote:
Originally Posted by VyseLegend View Post
I would also like to point out that there is a real possibility that the translators of the PSX FF Chronicles CT sound test simply copied-and-pasted this translation off of the Brink of Time booklet or a listing somewhere on the internet referring to this track as "Outskirts of Time" based solely on this poetic-license driven rendition disseminated via the Brink of Time CD, as early as June 1995.
That's not really for us to judge, nor we have a way to know. Again, the fact that a translation is not literal, incomplete, or just downright wrong doesn't make it any less official.
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  #21  
Old Aug 3, 2015, 02:13 AM
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As I hinted, on the Brink of Time arrangement CD, there is no Japanese title for the track "outskirts of Time' anywhere on the back cover, or - as far as I can tell - anywhere inside the booklet
It's actually on the obi: http://vgmdb.net/db/covers.php?do=view&cover=41439

It's not like we're trying to preserve the sanctity of the translation or anything -- after all this same album gave us "Secret of Forest" -- but it is a valid alternate title.
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Old Aug 3, 2015, 04:19 AM
VyseLegend VyseLegend is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Illidan View Post
http://vgmdb.net/db/covers.php?do=view&cover=41439 (top left)


That's not really for us to judge, nor we have a way to know. Again, the fact that a translation is not literal, incomplete, or just downright wrong doesn't make it any less official.
The reasons I claim its unofficial is that the PSX Sound Test is not an official publication, more like a snippet of code within a game. I don't see how it signified an official title of anything.
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Old Aug 3, 2015, 04:21 AM
VyseLegend VyseLegend is offline
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It's actually on the obi: http://vgmdb.net/db/covers.php?do=view&cover=41439

It's not like we're trying to preserve the sanctity of the translation or anything -- after all this same album gave us "Secret of Forest" -- but it is a valid alternate title.
So Obi strips now count as official track lists for a CD? More like an advertisement for the tracks loosely covered on the disc, am I right? The tracklist appears nowhere on the actual CD or pamphlet, obi aside. To me that signifies that the publication does not consider the Japanese tracks as relevant, except in advertising the game to the Japanese audience.
And since there are multiple tracks with a sparsely worded/crude translation of their original name on the CD, wouldn't it be safe to assume that they are not to rationally be taken as literal translation of the track names, but rather official titles for the arrangements that appear only on this release??

The CD Brink of Time is not the original soundtrack for Chrono Trigger.
Thusly, does it really follow to use a translation only seen on a characteristically sparsely translated tracklist for a poorly received arrangement CD, rather than the 'real' official translation of the original title - to which SQEX"s title almost certain harkens back?

For instance will WARLOCK BATTLE now be an alternative title for 'showdown with magus'? And 'SECRET OF FOREST' an official claim for "Secret of the Forest' ?

How would you guys feel if the new Chrono arrange album was titled "魔王決戦" / "Showdown with Magus" but we accepted the official translation "WARLOCK BATTLE" because of this same phenomenon? I find it puzzling that this phraseology about the 'outskirts' has persisted so long and I don't quite understand why it hasn't been corrected.

Last edited by VyseLegend; Aug 3, 2015 at 04:36 AM.
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  #24  
Old Aug 3, 2015, 05:16 AM
LiquidAcid LiquidAcid is offline
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So Obi strips now count as official track lists for a CD?
The obi is part of the album artwork, so yes, it qualifies as official information.

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Originally Posted by VyseLegend View Post
More like an advertisement for the tracks loosely covered on the disc, am I right?
No.
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Old Aug 3, 2015, 05:31 AM
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personally I think it's an error to add those 2 translations
outskirts and far away are related to 遥かなる時の彼方へ
if they chose ハルカナルトキノカナタヘ written as such, it's maybe to not associate this album name with the old english translations
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Old Aug 3, 2015, 06:24 AM
VyseLegend VyseLegend is offline
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The obi is part of the album artwork, so yes, it qualifies as official information.


No.
Okay its official artwork, that I'll agree with.

But my question is, is it possible to have two official titles for a track on one CD? If not, then the tracks on this CD must either be one or the other - the English titles on the jewel case, or the Japanese titles on the obi.

IN this case, its apparent from the printing correlation - with one in major font and printed directly on the case, and in the manual, compared to the other being in microtext on an obi - that the primary titles are the ENGLISH ones with the Japanese as a sub-text, as in an indication of which tracks are represented by the tracks on the disc, rather than the official titles of the tracks.

And this is to say nothing of the fact that the tracks on this disc do not represent an official translation of the Chrono Trigger Original Sound Version , itself a separate release.
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Old Aug 3, 2015, 06:32 AM
VyseLegend VyseLegend is offline
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personally I think it's an error to add those 2 translations
outskirts and far away are related to 遥かなる時の彼方へ
if they chose ハルカナルトキノカナタヘ written as such, it's maybe to not associate this album name with the old english translations
I have a hunch it was done for effect. The meaning comes out the same either way, I think.
My rough translation for the new title is "Toward distant times, far away".
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Old Aug 3, 2015, 07:32 AM
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if square enix browses that thread and don't know what english title to use
here's a little proposition: "Beyond time and space"
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Old Aug 3, 2015, 08:17 AM
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The discussion is getting a bit long, so I've split it off here.

My suggestion: "Across the expanse of a distant time"
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Old Aug 4, 2015, 08:26 PM
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But my question is, is it possible to have two official titles for a track on one CD?
I actually explained this in my post in this thread in pretty good detail.
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track 3-13 from Poison Pink is Kouk the Fire!! in English and 「胸いっぱいのククを」 in Japanese. Translating the Japanese does not give you Kouk the Fire!! ; there are no exclamation points or other emphasis characters and 胸いっぱい is not fire. Yet checking the booklet will give you both the titles for this track and thus they are both the actual titles in their respective languages.
You should also kind of already know the answer to this because you own the Final Fantasy VI Original Sound Version, which is only one of a few soundtracks that do this for every single song. The page for it at VGMdb even has both "English" and "English (Literal)" tracklists, and this isn't the only soundtrack that does this. So, obviously, it's not exactly an unprecedented occurrence for one track (or even all of the tracks) on an album to have differing official English/Japanese track names.


Honestly though, and hopefully you don't take offense to this, but, I don't see what this is going to prove with you, since it seems you're coming at this with the bias that Outskirts of Time should be abolished from this album's title field. On one hand, you've brought up numerous opportunities arguing for Outskirts of Time, like "is that title here and in this form and in this official capacity", but every time you are given an official place that Outskirts of Time has been linked to 遥かなる時の彼方へ, you try to make an excuse for it not to count, like "well that's these people" or "well the obi is just an advertising piece" or "well that's a different album" (an album which, by the way, is released on the exact same record label as the Chrono Trigger Original Sound Version). You have also said you don't care about literal translations, but then you turn around and call Outskirts of Time "poetic-license" and a "mistranslation" again and again as a point against it and ask why it has "persisted so long" and "why hasn't it been corrected". You also haven't been shy to share your (multiple) translations of 遥かなる時の彼方へ, which shouldn't be a big issue unless you really did care that it's translated correctly, because if we're not using an official English variant of the Japanese 遥かなる時の彼方へ, then we really wouldn't include the English at all because it's not the website's policy.
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I've decided to add it, for help with the eventual searches based on an existing reference. If there wasn't one to begin with, no eng title at all should have been added.
So if you care so little about the translation aspect of it then I don't know why you keep trying to proffer "good" translations when if it's not an English title officially linked to 遥かなる時の彼方へ, then it's not going up there anyway.


Lastly, translation wars are pointless, I could say 遥かなる時, "far away time", pretty clearly has the meaning "the future", so it should be "Beyond the Future". Now we're just arguing on whose translation is better, which I'm guessing is why these types of translations don't make it to album title fields and why Outskirts of Time was added only because it's official... which by the way, it is.

Not trying to rake you over the coals, but this discussion seems more like a crusade than an actual fact-finding mission. I answered the question you had at the top of my post here, and honestly I'm just expecting an excuse to come back arguing against that answer having any real meaning.

Last edited by RFGalaxy; Aug 4, 2015 at 09:00 PM.
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