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  #61  
Old May 11, 2010, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by LiquidAcid View Post
@SecretSquirrel: What about Casshern, Immortal and 'Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow' (all released in 2004). Animation of not?
They are all live action films featuring CG animation, and I think most people would not consider them animation. It's like if an otherwise animated film featured a few sequences of live action, you would still consider it an animation, right?

Quote:
@totally off-topic: Is there any relation between Casshern and the anime series 'Casshern Sins'???
Yes, both are based on the same original work. You can read more about it here.
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  #62  
Old May 11, 2010, 10:22 AM
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I'm just going to say I'm opposed to the inclusion of western animation. We do accept video games from everywhere, but there is a great emphasis put on Japanese work and the inclusion of anime (that is to say, Japanese animation) soundtracks is a natural extension of this. Especially since there are a fair amount of composers/artists who are involved in both.
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  #63  
Old May 11, 2010, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucy View Post
Secret: So, it's official now...? :>
I don't think I'm the final decision maker, though I would lean towards it. I think there are a lot of things to work out first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidAcid View Post
@SecretSquirrel: What about Casshern, Immortal and 'Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow' (all released in 2004). Animation of not?

@totally off-topic: Is there any relation between Casshern and the anime series 'Casshern Sins'???
Casshern: Live-Action, but eligible under relation to the Casshern anime franchise.
Immortal: I don't know what that is
Sky Captain: Live-Action

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Originally Posted by Kaleb.G View Post
We also could make separate branding, subdomains, or even domains while maintaining everything in the same database... Similar to some other sites.
I think we could also add something like vgmdb.net/jp/game and vgmdb.net/jp/anime so that we can also have a Japanese language front-page for each of these.
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  #64  
Old May 11, 2010, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
I think we could also add something like vgmdb.net/jp/game and vgmdb.net/jp/anime so that we can also have a Japanese language front-page for each of these.
flag icons would be a option too, right?
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  #65  
Old May 11, 2010, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
Casshern: Live-Action, but eligible under relation to the Casshern anime franchise.
Immortal: I don't know what that is
Sky Captain: Live-Action
OK, so we consider it live-action when at least one human actor appears in the movie/series/etc. ?

Concerning Immortal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immortal_(film)

What about "Werner - Beinhart!". It's a german production and the movie alternates between live-action scenes and animated content. The two scene types never intertwine though, in the sense that you've animated content mixed with live-action cast (at least I don't remember that).

Looks like the english Wiki also has an article ready:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_(comics)
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  #66  
Old May 11, 2010, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by seanne View Post
They are all live action films featuring CG animation, and I think most people would not consider them animation. It's like if an otherwise animated film featured a few sequences of live action, you would still consider it an animation, right?
For me these are rather animations with some of the 'actors' replaced by real human beings. That's especially true for Immortal where animated actors and human actors interact a lot.
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  #67  
Old May 12, 2010, 07:47 AM
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Another tricky case for you SecretSquirrel:
"A Scanner Darkly" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Scanner_Darkly_(film))

Generated from source material that was filmed with live actors, then fed into Rotoshop and animated after that. And it looks very much like anime!

I'm also wondering... what about stopmotion / clay-animation creations, like Wallace & Gromit, Chicken Run, ...
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  #68  
Old May 12, 2010, 07:55 AM
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Honestly, at this point the line has being stretched so far you may aswell allow soundtracks from movies and TV series in general. I know I'd love to have all those sci-fi soundtracks added.
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  #69  
Old May 12, 2010, 07:59 AM
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Ralph Bakshi's adaptation of the first two books of Lord of the Rings also used live actors for the battle scenes. I'd count these both of animation. Stop-motion, claymation, and silhouette animation should count as animation too. I'd draw the line at puppets/muppets though.
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  #70  
Old May 13, 2010, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Gigablah View Post
Ideally, submissions should be made by people who own a physical copy of the album for maximum accuracy, since that's one of the main goals of this site.
^I'd like to reiterate this. Basing you submission on anything apart from the original album inserts (or scans thereof) will more often than not result in incorrectness and/or incompleteness.

And if you're not able to decipher any of the names/titles given, please make a forum post about it so that others who may be able to help will be more likely to see it.
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  #71  
Old May 16, 2010, 08:59 AM
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Just my two cents, but personally I'm not too wild about the idea of including any kind of animation into this site. It's for VGM, and that's why I like it. If the idea does go into affect, I think the two should be as separate as possible. Like a completely different site, run by anime experts. At the very least, the portal idea seems reasonable. But I agree with Kaleb that having to filter all the time just to see what you want would be cumbersome and annoying.

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  #72  
Old May 16, 2010, 09:24 AM
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How would you handle artist discographies? Making users jump to different sites when they move between album entries and discographies would not make sense.

I'm planning a category switcher located to the top right that'll allow you to switch category filters quickly.
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  #73  
Old May 16, 2010, 09:29 AM
LiquidAcid LiquidAcid is offline
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Japanese VGM and japanese animation are closely tied together. VGM composers score animes and vice-versa, so it doesn't make sense to separate the DBs.
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  #74  
Old May 16, 2010, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidAcid View Post
Japanese VGM and japanese animation are closely tied together. VGM composers score animes and vice-versa, so it doesn't make sense to separate the DBs.
Agreed, but I can understand how people wishing to view VGM only find the filters a nuisance. I think it's a small price to pay though.
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  #75  
Old May 16, 2010, 09:32 AM
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And I though people wishing to view VGM only would want the filters...
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  #76  
Old May 16, 2010, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Gigablah View Post
And I though people wishing to view VGM only would want the filters...
Perhaps the idea of being associated with Anime disgusts them. Kinda like how I feel about the addition of western animation.
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  #77  
Old May 16, 2010, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by xanadujin View Post
Just my two cents, but personally I'm not too wild about the idea of including any kind of animation into this site. It's for VGM, and that's why I like it. If the idea does go into affect, I think the two should be as separate as possible. Like a completely different site, run by anime experts. At the very least, the portal idea seems reasonable. But I agree with Kaleb that having to filter all the time just to see what you want would be cumbersome and annoying.
What he said. VGMdb is for VGM, and that's why I like it.

VGM is video game music, not anime music. I'm one of those guys who never quite understood why video game music and anime music have to always get lumped together. So they share the same country of origin and a few composers here and there. Using that same logic should we start adding movie and TV (non-animation) soundtracks, Enka, J-pop, J-rock, Japanese hip-hop, Japanese metal/hardcore, and J-jazz to the database too? Plenty of musicians from those genres have composed music for video games.

Even Wikipedia makes a clear distinction between the two separate genres. See Video game music and Music in Japanese animation. The first sentence from both entries sums it up for me: "Video game music is any of the musical pieces or soundtracks found in video games" and "Music in Japanese animation is often closely tied to the Japanese pop music industry, but is also a significant industry, and genre in its own right."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowe View Post
Perhaps the idea of being associated with Anime disgusts them. Kinda like how I feel about the addition of western animation.
Sorta but I wouldn't say it "disgusts" me. However I do take offense to the idea that just because I like to play video games and listen to video game music that I automatically must be a fan of watching anime and listening to anime music. It's a stereotype that isn't always true and I feel that VGMdb is supporting the notion with the recent conversion from its VGM-only policy to the new "music of visual arts and games." I realize we had some animation music before but it was limited to game-related only, which I was fine with (Advent Children for example).

I guess I feel like I was baited and switched. Came here for a site dedicated to game music and now I have to deal with the opening of the anime floodgates. Personally I've loved video games since I was like four years old but I can't stand anime and the majority of the anime fanbase. I'm not saying that to offend anybody, it's just the way it is.

But yeah anyway. I like Justin's idea of a separate database for all the animation stuff to be ran by these so-called anime experts. Keep the sites separate but make it an option (in our account settings, so you must be logged in) to be able to link the two databases together. So if you're on VGMdb and you have the linking option enabled, you'd see all the animation stuff as well. If you're browsing AMdb (hypothetical name) and you have the option enabled, the game music would be visible. I realize that this is easy to just type up but would probably be a nightmare to actually code, especially with the artist profiles and such. Or better yet just don't link the two sites at all.
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  #78  
Old May 16, 2010, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by the_miker View Post
However I do take offense to the idea that just because I like to play video games and listen to video game music that I automatically must be a fan of watching anime and listening to anime music
Then, can I also be offended by the vast amount of doujin music, touhou, tales of, chiptune, etc. - everything I don't like musically but is still classified as VGM? Can I?

Seriously, I don't get your point here guys. We have the filters, if you don't want to see animation music then just switch it off. I don't see how the DB quality should be degraded by opening it for animation. Everything is still done through the moderation queue, so it's not like a bunch of self-proclaimed experts from 4chan are going to trash the DB with nonsense...
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  #79  
Old May 16, 2010, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by LiquidAcid View Post
Then, can I also be offended by the vast amount of doujin music, touhou, tales of, chiptune, etc. - everything I don't like musically but is still classified as VGM? Can I?
Just gonna jump in and say that taste is irrelevant here. The doujin music, touhou, tales of and chiptunes are pretty much always VGM or VGM-related. You can't use "I don't like musically" as an argument, adding anime to VGMdb is a major step because it's not at all VGM. It may share some artists in common but it's a different kind of music and that's why people react.

Personally I like the thought of having VGMdb solely focused on VGM since I believe that'll make it more accurate and a really credible source for VGM. We don't have the anime community to support the addition of anime just yet (but I think we will) and personally I'd like to see an implementation that doesn't clash with what VGMdb is. I'll leave that to brighter minds though, some good ideas are here already.
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  #80  
Old May 16, 2010, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Another Soundscape View Post
It may share some artists in common but it's a different kind of music and that's why people react.
Wait, how is it _different_?

I claim that there is no more difference than the 'amount of difference' we already have in the VGM area. OK, we rarely have any looped tracks in animation soundtracks but the variety of styles is the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another Soundscape View Post
Personally I like the thought of having VGMdb solely focused on VGM since I believe that'll make it more accurate and a really credible source for VGM.
Like I said, I don't see where this problem should come problem. And I'm wondering why people see this problem.
From my POV opening the DB for animation is going to attract more people, and also people with the necessary experience to become staff.

You seem to fear that we're now going to face a DDoS-like flood of anime soundtrack additions, eventually leading to a complete halt of new material on the VGM side because the staff can't catch up with the speed.

I think this is ridiculous. The system here of adding and changing DB content is _very_ good, it works _very_ well and leads to the high quality of the DB. And this system isn't going to change, so how could we end up being _less_ accurate than before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another Soundscape View Post
We don't have the anime community to support the addition of anime just yet (but I think we will) and personally I'd like to see an implementation that doesn't clash with what VGMdb is.
And we're not going to attract these people while restricting the DB like it was done in the past.
Also I fail to see this 'clashing'...

Personally I feel that (even though I might have sounded different before) every new album is an enrichment for the DB, no matter if it is doujin, some new touhou arrange, animation, j-pop, etc.

Some DB entries are more accurate, some less. Attracting more people means more accurate entries, since someone is eventually going to work on a less accurate entry (more people -> higher probability that someone picks the entry). I'm not saying that this is going to happen over night. But I'm confident that it will work out.

Currently we might have too few people that are 'experts' on the anime soundtrack sector, but it's enough to try it. And everything else will come with time. And if someday someone decides to open the DB for let's say j-drama soundtracks, then I'm not going to oppose it (provided that the rules what j-drama is are clear).
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  #81  
Old May 16, 2010, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by LiquidAcid View Post
Wait, how is it _different_?

I claim that there is no more difference than the 'amount of difference' we already have in the VGM area. OK, we rarely have any looped tracks in animation soundtracks but the variety of styles is the same.
Because it's not video game related. That's kind of my point.

In any case I'm not here to argue against the addition, just be sure to give users the option to choose (filters or otherwise) and it'll be all good.
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  #82  
Old May 16, 2010, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Another Soundscape View Post
Because it's not video game related. That's kind of my point.
OK I see, so it is the context.

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Originally Posted by Another Soundscape View Post
just be sure to give users the option to choose (filters or otherwise) and it'll be all good.
full ack
That should be a given for all further additions to the DB.
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  #83  
Old May 16, 2010, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by the_miker View Post
I realize that this is easy to just type up but would probably be a nightmare to actually code, especially with the artist profiles and such.
This.

I've implemented filters, so all the animation albums will simply disappear with a few clicks. I've gone as far as separating the forums into different categories. And I'm supposed to code a separate site with a separate domain and separate staff? Even if I were to do that, it'd be hosted on the same server, taking up the same drive space, using the same database. There's no point.

So I've made it really, really easy to hide anime albums.
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  #84  
Old May 16, 2010, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Gigablah View Post
This.

I've implemented filters, so all the animation albums will simply disappear with a few clicks. I've gone as far as separating the forums into different categories. And I'm supposed to code a separate site with a separate domain and separate staff? Even if I were to do that, it'd be hosted on the same server, taking up the same drive space, using the same database. There's no point.

So I've made it really, really easy to hide anime albums.
I have filtered out anime albums! Yay!
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  #85  
Old May 17, 2010, 12:05 AM
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after clicking that link, the albums are still showing on artist profiles for me.
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  #86  
Old May 17, 2010, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Blitz Lunar View Post
after clicking that link, the albums are still showing on artist profiles for me.
Discographies aren't filtered presently. If you want more pages filtered you should bring it up here.
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  #87  
Old May 17, 2010, 02:30 AM
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doesn't matter to me since i won't be filtering them out. just thought i'd let you know.
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  #88  
Old May 17, 2010, 08:04 AM
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Oh, this happened. I approve. I'm also not against any western animation soundtracks either, for the record.
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  #89  
Old May 18, 2010, 02:40 AM
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I kind of don't understand the argument against adding different content other than a purist notion (no offense to anyone). I mean, no matter how much of anything else is added, this is still the #1 video game music database site. It still lives up to its name. But with more content added it only offers things for other people too. This is probably a silly analogy but I picture someone walking into a candy store (labeled as such, "CANDY STORE" across the top of the shop), seeing a section of toys for sale, and then complaining to the owner that there shouldn't be toys for sale because the name is CANDY STORE. Very possibly, some people in a candy store have kids / are shopping for a sweet treat for their kids and kids like toys too. Everyone? No, of course not. But plenty of people.

It's sort of what I see here, people see "VGMdb" so when they see anime being added they complain to the site owner that anime shouldn't be catalogued because they personally are coming here for VGM. But like the candy store analogy, many people who like VGM like anime music too. Insisting on a different site is caring about something that only matters in your head really, because all the information will still be here on the internet, and the same people will be updating and maintaining it, in the same fashion, with the same standard of quality.

Anyway that's just what I think, and I'm looking forward to shaping a collection of anime music here too. I think this is a great initiative.
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  #90  
Old May 18, 2010, 08:14 AM
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I do share some of the reservations about adding anime. The last thing I want is to damage what we've built here. I think we're just going to have to work hard to find the best solution.

The addition of anime really grows out of a desire for the discographies to play a more prominent role, and for that they need to be more complete. While the categories Game and Anime don't overlap that much musically, the artists do overlap, especially the performers and less prominent composers and arrangers. Anyone who has done a lot of linking has seen this. Also, like game music, anime music is not widely respected in the mainstream. More importantly, the need for quality accurate album and artist information is much greater for anime music than the need that VGMdb helped to fill for game music. The current state is that decrepit.

I'm in full agreement that we need to preserve our brands, and I hope the separate portals will accomplish that. This gives us the opportunity to actually tighten up VGMdb/game. The default filter should be +game, with nothing in the other categories, so that browsing and searching only shows game-related results. The -anime filter removes all anime, including albums classified as both game and anime, so it's not the right one to use. The discographies should remain unfiltered, so a user can stumble on Works albums by following an artist link, but won't see them prominently displayed on the VGmdb/game front page or by search/browse. Eventually, animation that is related to games can be discovered by following product and franchise links. I think this follows the original motivation for adding all these other categories in the first place.

The VGMdb/animation portal mirrors this behavior, except it's +anime.

Thinking a little further, I wonder if the filter system is a little too full-featured. If we have the 3 portals (VGM, anime, everything) and maybe this category switcher, then perhaps all we need is a "Turn off Doujins" switch. I think we need to hear more about how you all are using the filter.
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