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  #1  
Old Jul 2, 2012, 12:02 PM
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Efendija Efendija is offline
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Strictly speaking, Ilyich is not part of his given name, it's a patronym, derived from his father's given name (given name Илья <Ilya> produces patronym Ильич <Ilyich>, for male children, for female children it would be Ильинична <Ilyinichna>), so basically Russians have this order: given name, patronym, family name. It's a tradition, so to speak.

So I would leave only Pyotr in given name field and Ilyich can stay as a part of display name. Just a suggestion, nothing more.

I also see cyrillic, original version of his name in the unicode field, does that mean the unicode field can be used, in (extremely) rare cases I suppose, for characters other than kanji? It would make sense after all...

Yet another observation: I understand the field was made primarily for kanji, so in situations like these, having no separation between family and given name looks kind of strange, e.g. when hovering over his name xD


Last edited by Efendija; Jul 2, 2012 at 12:12 PM.
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Old Jul 2, 2012, 01:00 PM
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Secret Squirrel Secret Squirrel is offline
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Perhaps we should insert a space between given and family names in our hover text. We already have a precedent for doing this on our artist pages, where we used to omit the space, but added it for readability of some of the names that are all kana.

I agree with your proposal for the name, too. We don't have the concept of patronym in our schema right now, and it probably doesn't make sense to add it since it isn't very common, so I'd say it's fine to remove it from the give name field for accuracy.
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Old Jul 2, 2012, 01:46 PM
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Thank you very much for the response.
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Old Jul 2, 2012, 05:44 PM
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It was me who decided to go with the Cyrillic instead of the kanji/katakana. Makes more sense to me this way. However, it does seem like it was made specifically for kanji/katakana, seeing as the name is used in the Japanese order (Family name first)

Shall we just leave it this way, or?
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Old Jul 2, 2012, 06:23 PM
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It seems totally OK (to me) as it is, Japanese name order I mean.

By the way, if you look at the artist page edit history, unicode fields are called 'namefamilykanji' and 'namegivenkanji' so it was definitely made with Japanese artist on mind and it's completely understandable. However, I'm glad the unicode fields can be sometimes used for other characters as well...
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Old Jul 2, 2012, 08:04 PM
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I really like the idea of having the Cyrillic somewhere, but I'm not sure the Unicode fields are currently the best place for it. The reason is I don't think it makes too much sense to display Cyrillic to Japanese users.



Localization is hard. :<
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Old Jul 2, 2012, 10:32 PM
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^ Well, learning kanji is harder lol

Seriously though, having the artist's name displayed in native language characters in the unicode (so I'm not thinking cyrillic only) seems quite fair and appropriate (again, just a personal opinion).

Also I really don't want to sound rude, but 'unicode' field name is misleading if it's meant to hold only kanji/katakana...

Last edited by Efendija; Jul 2, 2012 at 10:40 PM.
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Old Jul 2, 2012, 11:21 PM
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The Unicode field is labeled as "Kanji" on the artists-submit.php page, so it might be confusing.
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  #9  
Old Jul 3, 2012, 12:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efendija View Post
Seriously though, having the artist's name displayed in native language characters in the unicode (so I'm not thinking cyrillic only) seems quite fair and appropriate (again, just a personal opinion).
Yeah, I really want it somewhere, but even though those fields are called "Unicode," the VGMdb UI still largely assumes that what you're putting there is Japanese. I'm arguing mostly on the basis of how the site currently displays names, which is unfortunately not fair to most languages. As much as I would like for Пётр Чайко́вский to be there prominently on artist pages, I don't really see any utility gains in making the "original" display on album pages become a mishmash of languages the system clearly wasn't designed to handle (automatically putting the family name first and not having a space no matter what).

Also, if this is the direction we're going with the "Unicode" fields, then we should get rid of all Japanese transcriptions of names. Johann Strauss's original name is "Johann Strauss," not "ヨハン・シュトラウス."

These are all things a new identity system could help with: being able to tag names with languages. That way we could actually say "show me Japanese versions of all names" without any ambiguity and smartly handle name ordering and all that jazz.
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  #10  
Old Jul 3, 2012, 12:42 AM
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Yeah, Strauss's original name is Strauss, no doubt about that xD. It's really not completely unbiased if we kick the real, original name out in favor of English/western users (that would be so if we leave only 'Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky' in this example because that's basically a romanization of the original name) and Japanese users by leaving the katakana transcriptions in unicode fields for non-Japanese artsts.

The way I see it, some changes would be:
-separate kanji labeled fields for Japanese artists, because we know very well they are dominant, (should also cover kanji+hiragana/kanji+katakana name mixes etc. for some Japanese artists):
-unicode fields should really be unicode, holding the original, natively written artist's name, no matter what language it is (if it's Japanese, kanji should be enough, no need to repeat it)
-katakana transcription fields (for Strauss's ヨハン・シュトラウス and all other similar cases).

I can imagine it would be no small task, to put it mildly, but it could be something to consider in the future.

Latin and hiragana fields... no need to change them.

Last edited by Efendija; Jul 3, 2012 at 12:48 AM.
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