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  #31  
Old Jun 20, 2010, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by LiquidAcid View Post
[snip]pictures[snip]
All of this is useless to me because I don't need to see clipping, I need to hear it. Does the music, in the example of Vagrant Story, sound worse (or better) in the remastered print? That's really all that matters. And that's kind of why I was hoping someone to have a good example of a track, even a short clip, where this actually matters.

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Originally Posted by Another Soundscape View Post
Oh, also, it's fun to note that you're all talking about LOOKING at the waveform and not listening! We should hold a blind test session for fun.
Pretty much.
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  #32  
Old Jun 20, 2010, 04:48 PM
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It depends how bad it is.. perhaps you could post a clip of the reprint along with LiquidAcid's version. I'll look into posting some examples later if I can.
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  #33  
Old Jun 20, 2010, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Mika View Post
All of this is useless to me because I don't need to see clipping, I need to hear it.
My advice helps you to find the tracks that show clipping. After you've identified some of these tracks you can verify it by ear. What do you want more?
Expect me to find you some samples that compare the original print and the remastered version? No no, that's not how it works -- I don't have any obligations here to proof anything. If you want to make a crosscheck then get copies of both albums and compare, just as simple as that. I did this back then (with lossy rips) and the results were clear.

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Originally Posted by Mika View Post
Does the music, in the example of Vagrant Story, sound worse (or better) in the remastered print?
The so called remastered print is inferior in terms of sound quality compared to the original DigiCube release. It features a reduced dynamic range and introduces clipping in lots of the tracks.

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Originally Posted by Mika View Post
Pretty much.
A graphical waveform representation is just a tool to visualize audio data in a neutral way, nothing more - nothing less.
That happens a lot when doing audio analysis: E.g. we apply Fourier transform on the signal and then plot the result to get information about the frequency components. I wonder why some of you here look down on these graphical representation? I think it's a pretty nifty way of showing certain aspects on an audio signal, including aspects that the ear can identify as well.

@anosou:
"Can't see how increasing the loudness beyond the technical limits is bad though unless it sounds bad." <- Because you simply can't do that. You have to sacrifice some properties of the signal to increase the overall loudness, and that property is dynamic range.
And IMHO dynamic range is a major factor for good music, it let's the music come to life so to speak (I'm bad with these descriptions...)
Music becomes unenjoyable in the long term when squeezed into a tiny 3dB window.

I already pointed at the examples on Youtube, but here again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ

For me this is a very good example why dynamic range matters a lot, and should not be sacrificed for an artifical increase of loudness that could also be achieved by just increasing the volume on your portable/hifi-system/whatever.

Also some quote from 'sox' (The swiss army knife of sound processing program):
Code:
   Clipping
       Clipping is distortion that occurs when an audio signal level (or `vol‐
       ume')  exceeds  the range of the chosen representation.  In most cases,
       clipping is undesirable and so should be  corrected  by  adjusting  the
       level prior to the point (in the processing chain) at which it occurs.

       In  SoX,  clipping could occur, as you might expect, when using the vol
       or gain effects to increase the audio volume, but could also occur with
       many  other  effects,  when  converting one format to another, and even
       when simply playing the audio.

       Playing an audio file often involves resampling, and processing by ana‐
       logue components that can introduce a small DC offset and/or amplifica‐
       tion, all of which can produce distortion if the audio signal level was
       initially too close to the clipping point.

       For these reasons, it is usual to make sure that an audio file's signal
       level has some `headroom', i.e. it does not exceed a  particular  level
       below  the  maximum  possible level for the given representation.  Some
       standards bodies recommend as much as 9dB headroom, but in most  cases,
       3dB  (≈ 70% linear) will probably suffice.  Note that this wisdom seems
       to have been lost in modern music production; in fact, many CDs,  MP3s,
       etc.   are now mastered at levels above 0dBFS i.e. the audio is clipped
       as delivered.
Note the part about the headroom, something that I didn't mention before.
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  #34  
Old Jun 20, 2010, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Another Soundscape View Post
That's true, but to be fair I wouldn't hold one in higher regard than the other. Many times the mastered CD sounds better than the streamed in-game music. Also, for obvious reasons, the music can't occupy the same "space" in game as it does on an album where it's the ONLY sound.
In the case of streamed music (which can be extracted from games) the music is the only sound, and the composers/arranger directly worked on the streams (which is less often the case with albums) unless they deferred even the most basic work. Clipping is easily detectable, and there are cases where the in-game streams don't clip while the albums do.
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  #35  
Old Jun 21, 2010, 12:56 AM
Xenofan 29A Xenofan 29A is offline
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Probably one of the best (worst?) examples of this problem is on the track "Albedo" from the Digicube Xenosaga I soundtrack. At the loudest parts there is audible static and crackling. Listen to that, then listen to the Sleigh Bells remaster, which has none of the "static". It sounds better in the other sections too, less murky.

That's an example that's so exceedingly obvious, I noticed it the first time I heard the track, LONG before I had heard the term dynamic range compression or knew anything about audio mastering. It just sounds plain BAD.
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  #36  
Old Jun 21, 2010, 02:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Datschge View Post
In the case of streamed music (which can be extracted from games) the music is the only sound, and the composers/arranger directly worked on the streams (which is less often the case with albums) unless they deferred even the most basic work. Clipping is easily detectable, and there are cases where the in-game streams don't clip while the albums do.
When you extract it it's the only sound but it's not the only sound in-game and it's adapted to the game environment so that argument isn't really good for why one of them is the "good" one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidAcid View Post
@anosou:
"Can't see how increasing the loudness beyond the technical limits is bad though unless it sounds bad." <- Because you simply can't do that. You have to sacrifice some properties of the signal to increase the overall loudness, and that property is dynamic range.
And IMHO dynamic range is a major factor for good music, it let's the music come to life so to speak (I'm bad with these descriptions...)
Music becomes unenjoyable in the long term when squeezed into a tiny 3dB window.

I already pointed at the examples on Youtube, but here again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ

For me this is a very good example why dynamic range matters a lot, and should not be sacrificed for an artifical increase of loudness that could also be achieved by just increasing the volume on your portable/hifi-system/whatever.
Just because you have to sacrifices some properties of the signal DOES NOT mean the end result is BAD, it means you have sacrificed some properties of the signal to make the music louder. You think dynamic range is a major factor in good music (obviously way much more than I value it). I DO NOT think music becomes unenjoyable in the long term when squeezed into a tiny 3dB window, it can annoy me to no end having to turn up old records really loud to hear a detail you enjoy. Your whole argument is built around what you prefer and trying to get that standard onto a database site is, to me, not a good idea.

Leaving it at "I prefer music with much more headroom compared to modern production" is all good but don't make it sound like it's the "objective truth" here

And ofc, no offense, I like having a civilized discussion here!
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  #37  
Old Jun 21, 2010, 03:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Another Soundscape View Post
it can annoy me to no end having to turn up old records really loud to hear a detail you enjoy
Replaygain is a partial solution to this problem.

I have RG applied to all of my ripped music and I rarely have to adjust the volume on my amp. I most use the 'album mode', but when doing shuffle/random playback sometimes the 'radio mode' is the better option. RG also gives you clipping protection, so it's pretty neat.
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  #38  
Old Jun 21, 2010, 03:59 AM
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Originally Posted by LiquidAcid View Post
Replaygain is a partial solution to this problem.

I have RG applied to all of my ripped music and I rarely have to adjust the volume on my amp. I most use the 'album mode', but when doing shuffle/random playback sometimes the 'radio mode' is the better option. RG also gives you clipping protection, so it's pretty neat.
Yeah, RG is a good invention. Wish Apple would get a grip and incorporate it into iTunes or that Songbird gets stable enough soon. Ah well, minor issue to me.
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  #39  
Old Jun 21, 2010, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Another Soundscape View Post
When you extract it it's the only sound but it's not the only sound in-game and it's adapted to the game environment so that argument isn't really good for why one of them is the "good" one.
That's a pretty nonsense argument you got there. Before you were talking about the artist's intend, and since when games use streamed (instead sequenced) music they have full control over it if they choose so. And sound effect design is more commonly done by different people nowadays and not featured on albums anyway, so they don't really matter. And anyway, all that doesn't matter at all if the problem is clipping: if two otherwise equal sound sources differ in the amount of clipping, the one with more clipping is factually worse since one can only add clipping, not remove it.
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  #40  
Old Jun 21, 2010, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Another Soundscape View Post
Wish Apple would get a grip and incorporate it into iTunes or that Songbird gets stable enough soon.
I use MPD (Music Player Daemon) (http://mpd.wikia.com/wiki/Music_Player_Daemon_Wiki) for playback. It's a client/server-based audio player with a multitude of clients (you can control it remotely with a webinterface, from the commandline, there are a dozen GUIs for it, iPhone apps, bluetooth clients, infrared remote, etc. -- you could probably control the server from a washing mashine *lol*).

Naturally it supports RG for all the file formats it can play back.
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  #41  
Old Jun 21, 2010, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Another Soundscape View Post
You think dynamic range is a major factor in good music (obviously way much more than I value it). I DO NOT think music becomes unenjoyable in the long term when squeezed into a tiny 3dB window, it can annoy me to no end having to turn up old records really loud to hear a detail you enjoy.
Assuming that there was minimal clipping/distortion introduced from the compression and volume boosting in general, a track with only 3db dynamic range is going to be very fatiguing.

Especially with headphones.
Fatiguing music with no dynamic range is not music. It's not fun to listen to.
But then you could say heaphones aren't music, and really, they're not.
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  #42  
Old Jun 21, 2010, 10:18 AM
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But then you could say heaphones aren't music, and really, they're not.
I wonder how a live performance with a dynamic range of 3dB would sound.... *g*
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  #43  
Old Jun 21, 2010, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Datschge View Post
That's a pretty nonsense argument you got there. Before you were talking about the artist's intend, and since when games use streamed (instead sequenced) music they have full control over it if they choose so. And sound effect design is more commonly done by different people nowadays and not featured on albums anyway, so they don't really matter. And anyway, all that doesn't matter at all if the problem is clipping: if two otherwise equal sound sources differ in the amount of clipping, the one with more clipping is factually worse since one can only add clipping, not remove it.
Nah, it's not nonsense. If you create video game music you adapt it to a game and not to an album release, whatever the artists intent might be you can't supply a really loud track for a game where it will be constantly repeating and fighting over space with sound effects and vocals. Anyway, this is not my main argument in any way. I'm just saying that an artist might just as well prefer the "album master" as the original streamed audio.

And you can't say "factually worse", if one wants to listen to a louder, more compressed track then the one with slightly more clipping would be factually better. You see nobody will load an entire album into an audio editor and start re-mastering to suit their needs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam View Post
Assuming that there was minimal clipping/distortion introduced from the compression and volume boosting in general, a track with only 3db dynamic range is going to be very fatiguing.

Especially with headphones.
Fatiguing music with no dynamic range is not music. It's not fun to listen to.
But then you could say heaphones aren't music, and really, they're not.
I like arguing with LiquidAcid because it's much more than "it's fatiguing, no dynamic range is not music". Saying "it's not fun to listen to" is like the ULTIMATE biased personal opinion and it has no real place in an argument about wether VGMdb should show waveforms of tracks and the pros/cons of modern mastering. I'm not even saying one is better than the other btw, just that I often prefer quite loudly mastered albums. I'm not talking audible distortion or a big square waveform, just good modern mastering.

Anyway, this is getting to be more trouble than it's worth really. I respect your opinion and I hope you'll respect mine. The last thing I'd want here is try to enforce a standard or say x > y.
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  #44  
Old Jun 21, 2010, 11:52 AM
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Fatiguing music with no dynamic range is not music.
*blink*

i think more is being made of this than needs to be. there's always going to be differing production aesthetics across all albums, not just in correlation with the year of release and not only regarding dynamic range either. while not so common in game music, some artists/bands like to hard-pan (100% left or right in the stereo field) instruments in their songs. that is a point of contention as well, not everyone likes it. would we have to include info like that as well? i would say, to the majority of people, it isn't important to give specifics of the production values on each release - at the very least i think it should be low priority as a site feature.

anyway, it seems certain idioms commonly have very little dynamic range. metal, dnb, harder techno etc. for instance, pretty common for them to have severe compression settings. it's kinda just the "done thing" for certain music. if i'm honest, i'm somewhat envious of those that can get their songs nice and loud :J

Quote:
All of this is useless to me because I don't need to see clipping, I need to hear it.
indeed, clipping isn't necessarily audible. when you get used to seeing waveforms and know what heavy clipping looks like then you can anticipate how it'll sound, but some visible clipping in a wave isn't a guarantee that there'll be any (audible) distortion.
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  #45  
Old Jun 21, 2010, 11:59 AM
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Let's see if I can make a post with valid points that doesn't get deleted.

To be completely honest, I literally don't know why this "discussion" is even being allowed to continue. There is absolutely no valid argument here. Unless I'm missing something, and someone wants to explain. Because what I see is one half of the thread saying "We should do certain things because we don't like a certain method of mastering" and the other half of the thread saying "we actually like that form of mastering". And this thread was based on the whole notion of standardizing something here at VGMdb based on someone's opinion about mastering, right? Again, I literally see no valid reason this thread is continuing. We all know about loudness war, and if you think it's been beaten to death here at VGMdb, try some other music communities and you will see that the "argument" here is nothing more than run-of-the-mill ranting by a couple people who want all audio to sound a certain way. This discussion's popped up probably... a million times in the past. And guess what: record labels aren't oblivious to loudness war, guys. And if you think you can force a publisher into doing something in a way you want by not buying their albums because you don't like the way they're doing it, you're not only selfish, but really fucking stupid. Go ahead and be idealists, and say "if everyone did this, things would change!" You're probably right. And not everyone is going to do it, partly because not everyone agrees it should be done.

I totally vote we close this farce of a thread, but I guess there's something about this dead-end "discussion" that everyone's enjoying (or everyone just wants to prove they know the "most" about what sounds good, which is just hilarious).

Last edited by Hellacia; Jun 21, 2010 at 12:06 PM.
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  #46  
Old Jun 21, 2010, 12:11 PM
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Factual statements of clipping/distortions being being an "artifact", is not valid? What planet are you from? Almost all loudness war music has these artifacts, most of it audible, some of it not.

The sound of The Last Remnant, for example, is not an artistic use of loudness war effects. It just sounds bad. Metallica's Death Magnetic is an even worse example. Metallica LP rip vs cd rip: cymbals sound completely different, cd sounded like shit. Loudness war always tends to veil stuff like cymbals.

LP rips of metal (we all know how loud that genre is) that I have, tend to sound better than the cd version. (if you ignore the higher noise floor and clicks...)

You just refuse to acknowledge that what you've been paying big bucks for isn't up to snuff, IMO.

Dynamic range may be subjective, but there are surely tests showing that less fluctuations in volume produces a more fatiguing effect on the listener.

Last edited by Cam; Jun 21, 2010 at 12:20 PM.
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  #47  
Old Jun 21, 2010, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam View Post
The sound of The Last Remnant, for example, is not an artistic use of loudness war effects. It just sounds bad.
Actually, I thought it sounded really good and I would have hated for it to be mastered a different way.

Ergo, this is all your fucking opinion, and someone else's is going to differ, and we here at VGMdb (hopefully) don't base site-wide decisions based on someone's opinion about whether or not something sounds "good".

Fuckin dumbass.
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  #48  
Old Jun 21, 2010, 12:27 PM
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It should be pretty clear that no one on VGMdb staff really has any interest in supporting a campaign to boycott CDs until the labels change their ways. Providing some useful technical information may be of interest.
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  #49  
Old Jun 21, 2010, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacia View Post
Actually, I thought it sounded really good and I would have hated for it to be mastered a different way.
Your opinion might mean something when you get an avatar that is leveled correctly.

Anyway, this is the best I could come up with in such a short time. The following is a very very mild example. Yet I can still hear the difference. For a good starting point, listen to the cymbals. Both of these are actually acceptable compared to recent stuff.

http://www.multiupload.com/Q2Q9ADVEZ0

See if you can tell the difference.
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  #50  
Old Jun 21, 2010, 12:33 PM
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@Hellacia: You seem to have the odd attitude that every discussion has to lead to a defeat of one of the opposing sides.

I discuss because I want the other side to reflect on my point of view, in turn I reflect on their POV. As long as the discussion doesn't drift of into a mindless exchange of personal insult, everything is alright -- or not?

And currently I see mostly you doing this personal insults....
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  #51  
Old Jun 21, 2010, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
It should be pretty clear that no one on VGMdb staff really has any interest in supporting a campaign to boycott CDs until the labels change their ways. Providing some useful technical information may be of interest.
Yeah, personally I don't even think keeping this sort of information is worth the disk space (even if it doesn't take much, I'm not sure how much extra information per track would be required.) It just strikes me as something that doesn't really belong in the database, it's better left to discussions (or reviews, someday), as long as the drama and flaming is kept to a minimum. Just my 2 cents.

Also, guys, take a chill pill. That refers to pretty much all of you.
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  #52  
Old Jun 21, 2010, 12:43 PM
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in turn I reflect on their POV.
No you don't, you just return with more technical facts about audio that mean a whole lot on paper and absolutely nothing coming out of my speaker setup. I haven't once seen you "reflect" on someone else's point of view, but I have seen you come back with more points stating all the ways in which you are "correct" about this situation.

Let's be real here: you're not having this discussion because you're actually interested in what a bunch of other people think about something you think you know for a fact. The people that don't agree with you here are "wrong", aren't they? That's why you repeatedly come back with your next laundry list of audio facts and specifications, to prove that point. You're trying to convince people that you know everything about how all audio should be mastered, simply through a combination of what YOU like to listen to, and what looks good on paper.

What I haven't seen anyone arguing against loudness war do is tell someone of the opposing opinion that they have a point. THAT would be a true reflection of someone else's opinion. To be able to admit "Oh, okay, maybe this is just two different sets of opinion and you might be just as justified in yours as I am in mine." But I really haven't seen any of that going on because no one thinks they're wrong in this thread. So yeah, I do think that this "discussion has to lead to a defeat of one of the opposing sides", because if it didn't, you wouldn't spend so much time spewing out all those facts, and you'd just say instead what you feel should happen and then move on.

So don't try to bullshit me.

Oh, and before you even try and call me a hypocrite: I'm totally for facts based in neutrality. I agree with Ira, and the information ain't worth crap, but if we do want to add more technical information to the database, fine, add TECHNICAL information. Don't anyone here arguing against loudness war deny that you wanted the facts to be presented with a negative spin on companies that mix audio a certain way. Don't even lie, that's what you all wanted because that was one of the main starting points of this thread. And that I find to be unacceptable. VGMdb doesn't need to take a side, VGMdb needs to objectively deliver information. And that's why I think this thread is total bullshit and should be closed: there's too much politics going on here, and we don't need it.

Last edited by Hellacia; Jun 21, 2010 at 12:51 PM.
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  #53  
Old Jun 21, 2010, 12:49 PM
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You have a strange way of thinking, that's all I can say here

EDIT: And yes, I disagree with anosou, but I still respect his opinion. I don't see where this should contradict.

Last edited by LiquidAcid; Jun 21, 2010 at 01:12 PM.
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  #54  
Old Jun 21, 2010, 12:52 PM
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Uhh guys. Objectivity is an illusion.
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  #55  
Old Jun 21, 2010, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
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Don't anyone here arguing against loudness war deny that you wanted the facts to be presented with a negative spin on companies that mix audio a certain way.
You don't need to put a negative spin on companies that make waveforms with peaks at the cutoff point, it does that for itself. . .

But the information can surely help someone. Maybe people belonging to a group you hate, but the information is helpful none the less. Just maybe not to you.
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  #56  
Old Jun 22, 2010, 02:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Another Soundscape View Post
If you create video game music you adapt it to a game and not to an album release, whatever the artists intent might be you can't supply a really loud track for a game where it will be constantly repeating and fighting over space with sound effects and vocals.
Sound in games is mixed in real time, there is no need to have the source at exactly the loudness it's actually used in the end. So it usual will be contained in the best possible quality unless someone in the production chain fell on his head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another Soundscape View Post
I'm just saying that an artist might just as well prefer the "album master" as the original streamed audio.
And this will and is being done if the artist is involved in the album master. That's more often the exception than the rule though.

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And you can't say "factually worse", if one wants to listen to a louder, more compressed track then the one with slightly more clipping would be factually better.
You are missing the point and, with all due respect, I'm starting to think you have no idea at all what you are talking about.

See, all sounds in digital form have a very specific dynamic range which they can't exceed. If a sane musician wants to use distortion or overdrive they use it withing that dynamic range. If some halfway sane person wants to cut the waves at the top and bottom for artistic purposes, he will do so within the available dynamic range. In those cases the distortion/overdrive/clipping should normally be exactly the same on the game and on the album, with only the loudness possibly differing.

The whole issue about the loudness race on album releases is that it often results in efforts to additionally increase the loudness beyond the available dynamic range, effectively irrevocably removing sound information and at worst introducing additional distortion. If that's indeed the artist's intention he'll use that as source for the game as well. If not the album is a factual shit product, simple as that.
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  #57  
Old Jun 22, 2010, 07:58 AM
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LOL. With everyone wanting their opinions to be heard and the debating becoming more intense, I think this thread is the real 'Loudness War' that we all need to worry about here.

Now KeyLogic is no expert or anything, but if he may interject.... Having messed around with FL Studio (music creation software) for the past couple of years, I've learned about some of the negative effects making a song too loud can have. For example: if there are several instruments all playing at once, or just one instrument with a frequency that exceeds the limit, there is bound to be some distortion. Now in most cases, this distortion can be reduced by adding a level of compression to the overall signal but this can have a negative impact on the entire song especially when other instruments start to play more loudly; there's a... "muffling" of the signal and no subtlety whatsoever.

It's possible that some record labels are using similar techniques to remaster their CDs; raising the audio signal to just beyound its limits and then slapping on some kind of compression to mask the distortion and clipping as best as possible. This may not sound all that bad to some people but I can also understand how others feel about this as well.

Wanna know of a different Loudnees War going on? Check out regular-ol televion commercials. Unlike the rest of the program you were watching just prior to the commerial, they are attention grabbers and they max out at the highest possile volume to, and we all now how upleasant that is.:P
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What is "the box" that people are supposed to think outside of anyway? Hmm. Maybe it's similar to the Borg from Star Trek who dwelled as a collective hive-mind within a...box/cube. Those that deviated from this hive-mind would, in effect, be thinking outside of the box. it has both a figurative and a literal meaning.
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Old Jun 22, 2010, 10:20 AM
LiquidAcid LiquidAcid is offline
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@Datschge: At least I assume that people who participate in such a discussion know at least how 'pulse code modulation' works and what the sampling theorem by Shannon and Nyquist means in practice. It's pretty pointless to discuss loudness war with someone who doesn't even know the basics of digital audio.

@KeyLogic: I don't watch TV. I don't even own a television.

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or just one instrument with a frequency that exceeds the limit, there is bound to be some distortion
I can't figure that out. Which limit do you mean? The limit of representable frequencies is imposed by the sampling theorem that I stated above. For redbook this is 22050Hz (the commonly accepted human hearing range is from 20Hz to 20000Hz, that's one reason for the choice of a 44100Hz sampling rate).
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Old Jun 22, 2010, 12:06 PM
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@LiquidAcid: You are spot on. But should people like us retreat from such discussions if others don't know (and don't seem to care) about the basics?
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Old Jun 22, 2010, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by LiquidAcid View Post
@KeyLogic: I don't watch TV. I don't even own a television.
TV is dieing anyways and the internet offers convenience but I think the same applies to online commercials and their increased volume, but it's irreverent in this thread, so...not sure why I mentioned it. :P

Quote:
I can't figure that out. Which limit do you mean? The limit of representable frequencies is imposed by the sampling theorem that I stated above. For redbook this is 22050Hz (the commonly accepted human hearing range is from 20Hz to 20000Hz, that's one reason for the choice of a 44100Hz sampling rate).
Sorry, KeyLogic was not clear. KeyLogic was speaking specifically about the peak db (0db). It's possible to increase the volume beyond that point but in most cases it results in distortion. A common method of reducing this distortion is to apply compression but if it's not done correctly, this is where you may hear that "muffled" sound that I mentioned earlier. Now KeyLogic can imagine that, prior to remastering, portions of some songs might already near that db limit, and then to add more loudness and compress the overall signal....

The best way that KeyLogic can think to describe it is that without compression, all you'll hear is distortion. With compression applied to the overall signal, the sounds from the various instrument, when exceeding the db limit, will start to bleed into each other and it becomes harder to distinguish one instrument's sound from the others.

Remastering techniques can certainly have a positive effect (ex: Ragnarok Online Complete Soundtrack > Ragnarok Online Original Soundtrack) or at other time they seem to have no effect (Soul Calibur II Original Soundtrack -vs- Project Soul the Primary Sound Box -Soul Edge ~ Soul Calibur I & II-), but perhaps some composers/labels may go a little overboard with it and this can result in the 'bad' sound that many of you have pointed out.

Sorry if KeyLogic is not making much sense today, he has not slept.
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One man was smart, he felt smart. Two men were smart, they smelt farrr...darn it! I'll never get it right.

What is "the box" that people are supposed to think outside of anyway? Hmm. Maybe it's similar to the Borg from Star Trek who dwelled as a collective hive-mind within a...box/cube. Those that deviated from this hive-mind would, in effect, be thinking outside of the box. it has both a figurative and a literal meaning.
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