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  #61  
Old Jun 5, 2010, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
Licensed
Unlicensed - (For illegal use of licensed work? Like the Ending Theme by Toto from the 1st Dune Movie, which can be found on one of the Farland enclosures
Derivative Work - Incorporation of older game themes, or classical music
This could be interesting. There are a lot of Kiniro no Corda albums that are actually a classical music collection.

Still on this topic of derivative works, we could discuss later when use the featured artists in commercial albums. I think we not reached a consensus after that discussion. I addition, there are a lot of arranged anime albums without the involvement of the original creators. For example, this and this, that I put on regular artists discography, since in most arranged game albums the composers aren't featured. I know many people disagree of this...

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Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
Game-Related - For everything else vaguely related to games, but somehow miraculously not covered by all these categories.
I think both albums fall into that category.

http://vgmdb.net/album/9996
http://vgmdb.net/album/8820
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  #62  
Old Jun 5, 2010, 12:06 PM
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Vocal Arrange
Synth Vocal - Vocaloids fit here
I'm not sure if we need to detail a style of an arranged album and Vocaloids needs their own classifications.

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Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
OP Theme
ED Theme
It's interesting. I think these classifications work best when a single contains a full version of OP/ED themes while the OST has only the short version. If we have dedicated classifications for OP/ED themes, we need a "Featured Theme" as well, since they are sometimes released separately (like this).

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Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
Derivative Work - Incorporation of older game themes, or classical music
When a Final Fantasy soundtrack has a Prelude or Chocobo theme, is the track seen as Derivative Work? Are a best of/compilation albums also classified as this?

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Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
Of course, I still don't know if one of these categories fits FFXIII.....
FFXII (and dozens more DS albums) will surely fall under dematster/revamp/whatever Datschge will comes up with!

I might be a bit too passionate about more classifications, but at the same time I don't prefer to expand our classifications broadly. What I think the minimum additions required are Unused/Prototype, Remaster/Demaster, and one or two more for character songs, commercial and trailers, but I know it may already sound too many.
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  #63  
Old Jun 6, 2010, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Revoc View Post
Still on this topic of derivative works, we could discuss later when use the featured artists in commercial albums. I think we not reached a consensus after that discussion. I addition, there are a lot of arranged anime albums without the involvement of the original creators. For example, this and this, that I put on regular artists discography, since in most arranged game albums the composers aren't featured. I know many people disagree of this...
Yeah, we still haven't figured out where to draw the line on using "featured" over direct discography. We might eventually have to resolve this through a vote.

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Originally Posted by Cedille View Post
I'm not sure if we need to detail a style of an arranged album and Vocaloids needs their own classifications.
What I'm trying to solve is where the user wants to include (or more likely exclude) vocal albums from his searches, so we need some kind of classification to catch those albums that are full vocal (until we have percentages). It's not flawless, because not all vocal albums are arranges. Other vocals have to go somewhere, even if we call the category "Other Vocal", so that someone doesn't categorize as "OP" and "Vocal".

Synth Voice would cover more than just Vocaloids. I'm not sure if we need it either.

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Originally Posted by Cedille View Post
It's interesting. I think these classifications work best when a single contains a full version of OP/ED themes while the OST has only the short version. If we have dedicated classifications for OP/ED themes, we need a "Featured Theme" as well, since they are sometimes released separately (like this).
Yeah, Eyes on Me is kind of like the "theme song" for FF8. We could add a Featured Theme, or combine all these into OP/ED/Theme

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Originally Posted by Cedille View Post
When a Final Fantasy soundtrack has a Prelude or Chocobo theme, is the track seen as Derivative Work?
I don't think that re-using themes that belong to the same series should count as derivative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedille View Post
Are a best of/compilation albums also classified as this?
No, because it's a compilation. Aside, do we need a Compilation classification?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedille View Post
I might be a bit too passionate about more classifications, but at the same time I don't prefer to expand our classifications broadly. What I think the minimum additions required are Unused/Prototype, Remaster/Demaster, and one or two more for character songs, commercial and trailers, but I know it may already sound too many.
So there are some things we can combine after all. We'll need Datschge to chime in on whether he thinks we can combine Remaster and Demaster.
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  #64  
Old Jun 6, 2010, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
What I'm trying to solve is where the user wants to include (or more likely exclude) vocal albums from his searches, so we need some kind of classification to catch those albums that are full vocal (until we have percentages).
This is also what I'm most interested in, since like I expressed in another thread I feel the classification is more useful if it informs users of content that is not part of the original soundtrack (which I feel is why we have two separate classifications anyway). It's like the example given about Dissidia, and how it's not classified as an arrange even though it arranges Final Fantasy themes. We could label it an arrange, but I think this will give users the wrong impression about the nature of the release. Similarly, like you said here:

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Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
What kind of rule could we come up with to prevent over saturation of the vocal classification? Would we use something like "OP+ED Themes don't count as vocals if they are on an original soundtrack" and maybe "Image songs count as Image/Prototype and not Vocal unless they span more than X% of the album."
is probably a good idea, because it informs users of the nature of the release. If a vocal piece is used in an original soundtrack, then it's part of the soundtrack like any other song. Imagine classifying all original soundtracks as "instrumental" just because they contained songs with no vocals. Maybe it sounds silly, but it would be the same thing.

Oh, and also:

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Aside, do we need a Compilation classification?
I think it would be cool, maybe users don't care to own "best of" albums, but the album titles might be descriptive of this anyway. Maybe not something we need.
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  #65  
Old Jun 6, 2010, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
So there are some things we can combine after all. We'll need Datschge to chime in on whether he thinks we can combine Remaster and Demaster.
I think we can and probably even should combine them since otherwise the Remaster term would only be used in cases where the work is known to have been remastered, with everything else getting the rather derogatory term Demaster. Like Dag noted most listeners won't be able to tell the difference between them, only that it's different from in-game . Actually I'd still prefer both terms to be replaced with a term like Revamp since that's more neutral. Remaster on the other hand is a rather non-telling term (possible introduction of loudness races in newer masterings aside) and other possibilities like Upgrade/Downgrade (referring to sound design changes) and the likes reflect subjective qualities which should be avoided in classifications imo.

Edit: Maybe it should always be detailed in the notes in what way an album differs from in-game to get the Revamp classification.

Last edited by Datschge; Jun 6, 2010 at 01:15 PM.
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  #66  
Old Jun 6, 2010, 03:58 PM
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Okay, we'll change Remaster to Revamp.

All of our classifications so far are applicable to albums or tracks, but maybe we need some album-specific (or rather, disc-specific) ones. Namely:

Vocal Album - for discs that are *mostly* vocal
Compilation - Compilation of previously published material.

As for the rest of the vocal classifications, what if we went with
OP/ED/Theme Song - Openings, Endings, and Featured Themes
Character/Image/Commercial Song - For character, commercial, and other miscellaneous vocals.

All titles subject to change. We probably still need something for the odd vocal that pops up on an arrange album.

As for the Licensed/Unlicensed stuff, I'm still unsure how to proceed with those, but I think that we could proceed with the Derived classification.
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  #67  
Old Jun 7, 2010, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
What I'm trying to solve is where the user wants to include (or more likely exclude) vocal albums from his searches, so we need some kind of classification to catch those albums that are full vocal (until we have percentages). It's not flawless, because not all vocal albums are arranges. Other vocals have to go somewhere, even if we call the category "Other Vocal", so that someone doesn't categorize as "OP" and "Vocal".
I didn't know so many users hated vocal arrangements in particular :P

Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
All of our classifications so far are applicable to albums or tracks, but maybe we need some album-specific (or rather, disc-specific) ones. Namely:
Vocal Album - for discs that are *mostly* vocal
Compilation - Compilation of previously published material.
It's definitely nice to have some dedicated classifications to albums and media (I also propose we turn Live Event and Video into such), but once we classify one album or disc as Vocal Album, would it basically stay as Vocal Album alone? Or, do these album-specific classifications stay together with the other ones we use for individual tracks? I imagine either way can potentially be problematic.

(...perhaps we eventually classify an album as a whole by picking up only one or two of the most dominating classifications, and then additionally provide information on the percentage or ratio of how the individual tracks are classified)

Quote:
As for the rest of the vocal classifications, what if we went with
OP/ED/Theme Song - Openings, Endings, and Featured Themes
Character/Image/Commercial Song - For character, commercial, and other miscellaneous vocals.
I think it would be better to not limit these classifications to vocals only, as OP/ED/Theme song can sometimes be instrumental only (like this). Also, I think a trailer theme is akin to a commercial song (but tend to be instrumental only), so I feel it should be covered by Character/Image/Commercial Song.
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  #68  
Old Jun 7, 2010, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Cedille View Post
It's definitely nice to have some dedicated classifications to albums and media (I also propose we turn Live Event and Video into such), but once we classify one album or disc as Vocal Album, would it basically stay as Vocal Album alone? Or, do these album-specific classifications stay together with the other ones we use for individual tracks? I imagine either way can potentially be problematic.
I envisioned that sometimes, an album might be "mostly vocal", but have a drama track or something else, so we would need to mix these album/disc type classifications with the track-based ones.

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Originally Posted by Cedille View Post
I think it would be better to not limit these classifications to vocals only, as OP/ED/Theme song can sometimes be instrumental only (like this). Also, I think a trailer theme is akin to a commercial song (but tend to be instrumental only), so I feel it should be covered by Character/Image/Commercial Song.
One problem there is that Character Theme BGM (say Tifa's theme from FF7) could also fall into this classification. Maybe this is an argument not to call it Character. Just make it Commercial/Image.
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  #69  
Old Jun 8, 2010, 11:18 AM
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This thread is quite long and i am a bit lazy to read it all..

What's the exact difference between arrangement & revamp ?


I still think that using 1 classification for 1 track that is completely lost in the middle of an album is not a good idea.
Because the classification should be used as a fast determination & general classification of the full album.

OP / ED / Image themes is a good idea for singles, but should not be used on full length albums (until it's a full "image album").

I also don't like the compilation idea, because i am for less classifications.. and compilation alone does not indicate anything.

Prototype/Unused/Omake are rare and is also misleading for a general idea of the album.

While this Licensed/Unlicensed stuff is clearly too complicated.
Licensed music (ex: Grand Theft Auto albums) are Original Soundtrack, it does not interest me much if it's licensed or not.
Albums full of licensed music without any game related to should be classified as other.


But i clearly got one question.. Do you guys want to use the classification as a "what is to be found on the album ?" or "what is this album about" ?

Last edited by Myrkul; Jun 8, 2010 at 04:54 PM.
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  #70  
Old Jun 8, 2010, 11:37 AM
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Well, it all depends how the user wants to use the search.

Does he want to want to find every Final Fantasy arrange album (a small subset), or every Final Fantasy arrange track that appears on any album.

It sounds like we need 2 classifications. The album (or disc) level classification, where there can only be one; and the track level classification, which can be assembled into a list with multiple classifications.

Ideally, the single album-level classification could be automatically determined from the track classifications, maybe based on the majority of the album, or on certain percentages. Unfortunately, we're nowhere near the point where we can do this.
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  #71  
Old Jun 8, 2010, 11:42 AM
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I am at 200% for your last answer Secret.
I guess all of this could be done with the single track credits/classification feature we'r all waiting for.
But i understand you guys are also trying to find a solution for now.

Maybe a poll could be organized to know what visitors would really want to have. I also regretted the decision of anime integration without asking more people about it.
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  #72  
Old Jun 8, 2010, 02:57 PM
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I talked some to Teioh about all this too. Maybe we do need to delay working more on this until we have track credit capability. In fact, the track stuff might be our highest priority now, since it's holding up so much (though product implementation is a close second).
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  #73  
Old Jun 8, 2010, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
I talked some to Teioh about all this too. Maybe we do need to delay working more on this until we have track credit capability. In fact, the track stuff might be our highest priority now, since it's holding up so much (though product implementation is a close second).
Very much agree'd.
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  #74  
Old Jun 8, 2010, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
It sounds like we need 2 classifications. The album (or disc) level classification, where there can only be one; and the track level classification, which can be assembled into a list with multiple classifications.
This is exactly what I've been thinking too. With as many classifications as we might end up with, to avoid confusion, I think it could be good to have one main "this is the kind of album it is" classification as well as the ability to add several sub "these kinds of tracks are on the album" classifications.

It could be something simple like: Original Soundtrack (Vocal, Drama, Unused).
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  #75  
Old Jun 9, 2010, 01:23 AM
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In fact, the track stuff might be our highest priority now, since it's holding up so much (though product implementation is a close second).
Very yes. And yeah, the product system goes hand in hand with it, allowing for linking tracks to products.
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  #76  
Old Jun 13, 2010, 06:39 AM
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Ah, here's one I just got reminded of, DJ mixes. Won't likely see many of these but there are a few. I forgot 'live event', which can cover these fine, the rest stands though.

EDIT: Also, mixed (for albums where the tracks are mixed together) and partially mixed (for albums with some mixed tracks.)

Last edited by Ira; Jun 13, 2010 at 11:31 AM.
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  #77  
Old Nov 26, 2010, 05:20 AM
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Currently, "Prototype/Unused" is listed in the menu, but not in the guideline message, and instead there is another classification.

Quote:
Image/Prototype
Music that is related to any of VGMdb's categories, but was not used in it. Image albums and image songs qualify
Does it cover "Unused" as well?
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  #78  
Old Apr 5, 2011, 11:44 AM
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Not sure "Remix" is worth keeping anymore. It's a subset of "Arrangement" after all, and thus it's really hard to determine which an album falls under. Even if we don't merge them, I think "Remix" should always be selected with "Arrangement", so that someone searching by "Arrangement" will hit albums like this.
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  #79  
Old Apr 6, 2011, 06:39 AM
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That is a good point, though I'll have to try to remember why we originally created the Remix classificaiton.
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  #80  
Old Aug 16, 2013, 01:46 PM
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NNTK...NWTK

Last edited by emuxer; Nov 11, 2013 at 08:11 AM.
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  #81  
Old Aug 16, 2013, 04:22 PM
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I understand that Joypad got copyright permission to sell arrangements of the music, and that's why the album is not listed as a doujin.

Also, the classification on the product page is sometimes done automatically upon linking when a set of conditions is met. However, the links can't always be auto-classified so the user may have to do it manually in those cases.
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  #82  
Old Aug 19, 2013, 02:06 PM
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Even though they're properly paying mechanical licenses, they're still unofficial fan arrangements. I thought we were using the doujin classification so people can filter out fan arrangement albums, which is why we don't use it for doujin-published original soundtracks.
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  #83  
Old Aug 19, 2013, 07:28 PM
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Even though they're properly paying mechanical licenses, they're still unofficial fan arrangements. I thought we were using the doujin classification so people can filter out fan arrangement albums, which is why we don't use it for doujin-published original soundtracks.
The classifications doujin and commercial are OK as they do indicate what kind of publishing is it, but since doujin implies fan arrangement and commercial implies original and official arranges, we need something else to distinguish all these cases. Here are some examples of some of these problems.
Big Bang Mini OST This release was not commercial as it was free, it was self published by the developers, so it's doujin, but it was classified as commercial because it was an Original Soundtrack of a retail game.
Arkedo Series #1 JUMP! This release was not commercial as it was free, it was self published by the developers, so it's doujin, and it was classified this way because it was an Original Soundtrack of an indie game, although it's a similar case as the one above.
Aeon A free release by the same author of Arkedo Series #1 and published the same way, Original soundtrack of an unreleased game, and yet it's classified commercial.
ZUNTATA RARE SELECTION Impromptu By definition, self-published (Taito by Taito), but classified as commercial because it's a big company.
Video Games Techno Versions Presumed unlicensed remixes, classified as Commercial because it was published by a big music publisher in Italy.
Joypad Records Most releases are Fan Arrangements, but all classified as commercial because they pay proper royalties and is a well-established publisher.
Team Shanghai Alice All of its releases are original soundtracks and official, but since the publisher is the same person that makes the games and the music, all are classified as doujin.

Currently, there is not a way to filter Fan Arrangements without doujin original and official soundtracks, and there's no way to filter arrangements without having results including both official and fan.

I know there will be no changes as this debate has always been dismissed, but I wanted to share my point of view of the subject (again) and to give the usual revival of it of every 3 years.
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  #84  
Old Aug 19, 2013, 08:06 PM
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We've been terribly inconsistent about what "Doujin/Indie" means for years, and it keeps getting worse with stuff like these Joypad albums. At this point, our uses of "commercial" and "doujin" are so far divorced from their actual meanings that we should stop using them.

If what we want is to capture is whether the publisher is a large commercial organization or a doujin group, we should do that (and we already do with label classifications). If what we want is to be able to filter out fan arrangement albums and original works by doujin artists, we should do that. If what we want is to classify which albums are properly licensed and which one's aren't, we should do that.

As it stands, we're trying to capture no fewer than three different concepts in one field, and it's no wonder it keeps leading to arguments and confusion.

This was the discussion thread about that field: https://vgmdb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4358
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  #85  
Old Aug 20, 2013, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by CHz View Post
This was the discussion thread about that field: https://vgmdb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4358
I remember that, I think Secret Squirrel sent me there after I brought that up somewhere else in the forums, I can't remember if it was in an album discussion. I realized quickly that the debate was not gonna go any further so I quited it. That's why I said that last statement in my post.
Over all these years I simply got used to the idea that a search was not reliable so I learned to look for the arranger names and then after a few searches at VGMdb and outside I've been able to see if it's official or not.
I always dismiss the Publisher Type field. It can mean anything.
I guess this is just the usual triennial state of the confusion, if it's OK with the staff, then I guess it's OK, just my two cents.
See you in 2016! (I DO mean it)

Last edited by emuxer; Nov 10, 2013 at 10:35 PM.
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  #86  
Old Sep 1, 2013, 04:23 PM
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I forgot about this post, but a recent edit made me read the whole subject again.
I never was agree to use classifications for a single track.
Especially for this kind of album (which will make my example too):
TENCHU 3 ORIGINAL SOUND TRACK
There's a single remixed track at the bottom of disc 2, that's 1 track on 62.

Like i said 3 years ago, i think the album should reflete the nature of the content. To me, this album is not a "remix" album. It's classified as an OST.
Since we do not have track by track informations and search, we can only search by "global" classification of an album, so i think global information should be... "global".
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  #87  
Old Sep 2, 2013, 03:47 AM
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It's my two cent, but I think the one to blame is not individual submitters who kindly add classification information based on a single track, but the failure of a transition to track-by-track based database, and the ultimate cause of it is because we've been leaving one or two hundred moderation chores per week over years to admins (and of course, I know who's taken care of scans and you're definitely the savior).

Anyways, I agree, at this moment, it may be better to keep only the overall classification of an album, but I can't prevent somebody from adding subclassifications with good will.
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  #88  
Old Sep 2, 2013, 04:46 AM
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I sincerely don't see why this is some type of issue. Seriously.

As I said there, and I quote (myself):

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Originally Posted by 413/0 View Post
So if the album has a remix, or what have you, that would constitute an additional classification, it should just be left unchanged because "there's only one remixed track". Quite the counterproductive approach for the purposes of the database, wouldn't you agree?

Whether it's a single track or multiples shouldn't be a factor when adding additional categories - that's why they are there in the first place, to classify.
By adding, for the sake of this example, remix to the classification field, we're just noting its content by classifying it and providing relevant information pertaining specifically to that product, which is the purpose of any database. In this case, most albums that contain additional tracks that are either arranged or remixed are identified as such ([1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] ...), so there's hardly any chance someone would get confused over the classification, which is there as a point of reference anyway.

Until this "track-by-track" database thingy you're working on is finished, this is the best way to properly classify the product's content.
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  #89  
Old Sep 2, 2013, 06:03 AM
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I think it's fine as it is now, additional classifications are a good thing, and are in sync with current guidelines in the first post of this thread. I don't know why additional classification is such a problem to some; if the album is OST but has just one remixed and one drama track (just an example), I will always select those classifications too and follow the guideline at the same time. Yes there was discussion about this and like I said in the Tenchu thread the discussion went nowhere but the current classification guidelines are there and should be respected. Biggest progress was seanne's suggestion in post no. 74 to have Main classification (additional classification) pattern aka Original Soundtrack (Remix, Drama) and it probably wouldn't require track by track classification. But nothing's been done about that for three years as far as I can see.

Just my two Euro cents
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  #90  
Old Sep 5, 2013, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHz View Post
We've been terribly inconsistent about what "Doujin/Indie" means for years, and it keeps getting worse with stuff like these Joypad albums. At this point, our uses of "commercial" and "doujin" are so far divorced from their actual meanings that we should stop using them.

If what we want is to capture is whether the publisher is a large commercial organization or a doujin group, we should do that (and we already do with label classifications). If what we want is to be able to filter out fan arrangement albums and original works by doujin artists, we should do that. If what we want is to classify which albums are properly licensed and which one's aren't, we should do that.

As it stands, we're trying to capture no fewer than three different concepts in one field, and it's no wonder it keeps leading to arguments and confusion.

This was the discussion thread about that field: https://vgmdb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4358
The problem is, I have no idea where to go with this. The original intent for the classification "doujin" was to filter out all those old Key and Ragnarok Online albums from comiket for people who didn't want to see them.

I'm not sure we really want 3 fields (publisher type, publication type, rights type) for this. Although we like to be thorough, I'm not sure that it adds anything that the user wants. I am not sure the distinction between large publisher, independent publisher, and self-publishing is that significant anymore.

I suppose one way to encapsulate its general use, would be to change it from "Doujin/Independent" to "Unlicensed Fan Arrange".
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