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  #1  
Old May 11, 2010, 06:24 PM
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Default Submissions - Classification

Current Guidelines
Quote:
You can select or de-select multiple classifications and categories with control-click.

If the album contains at least 1 arrange, drama, remix, or original track, then include it in the classifications.

Use the Vocal classification if the album contains several vocals, or is a vocal/character song album. Do not use it if an Original Soundtrack contains 1 or 2 OP/ED themes.

Original Soundtrack - Music that accompanies some audio, visual, or printed work.
Arrangement - Arrangement of music that accompanied some audio, visual, or printed work
Vocal - Music that includes vocals
Drama - Stories, monologues, and radio shows where everyone is in character
Live Event - Music recorded at a live event
Remix - A derived work that uses samples of the original. Only use for valid VGMdb categories
Original Work - Music that has no connection to any of VGMdb's categories
Talk- Dialogues where the actors or composers are speaking, but are not in character
Remaster - A modified or improved work that overcomes limitations in the original recording or hardware. Only use for valid VGMdb categories.
Image / Prototype - Music that is related to any of VGMdb's categories, but was not used in it. Image albums and image songs qualify.
Sound Effect - Sound effects and voice samples
Data - A data track that appears on the media
Video - Any video work
Changelog
Quote:
03-Jun-2010 -- Added new classifications (Image/Prototype, Sound Effect, Data, Video)
03-Jun-2010 -- Added more details to the instructions (see above)
Technical Changes to Implement
Quote:
On hold until independent track info is implemented.
Proposed Changes for Discussion
Quote:
  • Rewrite the user guidelines
  • Discuss new categories
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  #2  
Old May 11, 2010, 06:25 PM
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The current classifications are:

Quote:
Original Soundtrack
Arrangement
Vocal
Drama
Live Event
Remix
Original Work
Talk
Remaster
There have been some questions about adding more. I remember Image album was one consideration, but I think there was another one.
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  #3  
Old May 11, 2010, 07:50 PM
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I seconded all those suggestions that CHz had done as well:

- Licensed
- Unused
- Sound Effect
- Voice Clip
- Silence
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  #4  
Old May 11, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Aren't we going to classify individual tracks in the future? If so, I think some parts of what we now decide will end up interim measures. I personally prefer, once we have individual track information, implement circle graphs or some other ways to show the ratio of each classification. Anyway, I'll sum up my question/request quickly;


- When to select "Original Soundtrack"?
According to the current guideline we have to select "Arrangement" or "Original Works" if there is one track of those kinds, but does the same apply for "Original Soundtrack"?

- Is "Vocal" a catch-all classification or not?
I think our policy on this is divided, and I guess not a few people prefer to use "Vocal" as a catch-all type, as is shown by the number of the singles and albums classified solely as "Vocal" on this database. Also, if we follow the current guideline more faithfully, we have to classify the recent vocal heavy soundtracks such as Persona, NieR, Subarashiki, Ar tonelico and more as "Original Soundtrack, Vocal", but we don't. I understand this stance though, as I also don't like to add "Vocal" to every Live Event CD/DVD.

- A new classification for image/commercial songs.
Otherwise, we have to stretch the definition of "Original Works" to cover them.

- A new classification for Voice Clip.
Or "Talk/Voice".

- A new classification for data tracks.
As we more often than not include them in the tracklists.

- A new classification for movies.
As we more often than not include the DVD attached to a limited edition single.
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  #5  
Old May 11, 2010, 09:17 PM
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One thing I'd like clarification on is the Vocal classification. Just how many vocal tracks does there need to be for it to be used? More than 1? More than 2? A quarter of the album? Half the album? And also, shouldn't the vocal classification be used in conjunction with other classifications? I know at present it's often used on it's own for singles and albums by vocalist, etc. but those should also be 'original work', no?
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  #6  
Old May 12, 2010, 06:23 AM
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The Circle graph idea is pretty cool. I think we can do that with the same library we are using for our ratings graphs.

We used to only use Vocal for albums that were mostly vocal. However, when we have track-by-track credits, a single vocal track will trigger the classification. So that's pretty much how we've been doing these. Maybe the circle graph will solve the problem of identifying vocal albums from those albums that just have an OP or ED.
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  #7  
Old May 12, 2010, 10:24 AM
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I'd like some clarifications for drama and talk + game and radio/drama added to the help messages because I keep mistaking them.

When to choose game over radio/drama, or add both or...? (ex.- DJCDs, seem a bit inconsistent)

Also, how should I classify this (original drama cd based on a game franchise): publication, radio/drama, game...?
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  #8  
Old May 13, 2010, 05:43 AM
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There are a couple of confusing things here. We'll definitely need a rewrite.

Classification

Talk - This should only be used for tracks where the actors or composers are speaking, but are not in character.
Drama - This covers stories, monologues, and radio shows where everyone is in character

Category

Radio/Drama: For albums that are:
- Soundtracks to radio shows or internet audio shows
- Drama/DJ/other arranges that are based on characters from radio shows or internet audio shows\
- CDs that reprint material from a radio show or internet audio show
- Standalone drama series that aren't related to any game/anime/publication/radio show

A drama or DJCD based on characters in a game or anime should be categorized as game or anime.
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  #9  
Old May 13, 2010, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Maybe the circle graph will solve the problem of identifying vocal albums from those albums that just have an OP or ED.
I think one problem with a circle graph is how to handle some classifications that essentially overlap other ones (Vocal, and possibly Remaster). I once suggested multiple graphs in the feedback forum, but perhaps we can just add the percentage to the end of each selected classification and that may work enough (for instance, NieR is Original Soundtrack (98%), Remix (2%), Vocal (95~100%).


Quote:
DJCD based on characters in a game or anime should be categorized as game or anime.
I'd appreciate it details to what degree it has to be "based on characters". As you may already be aware, in most game-related radio shows, voice actors rarely speak in the characters of the games except for occasional game quotes and a possible short drama part (I can't swear this myself because I have never heard a Radio/DJCD album, but I'll sample some radio shows over the next week to have conviction), but as long as game characters are featured somewhere, should the category be Game?

I don't think we regard FFVII Advent Children as Game just because it has game characters like Cloud or Sephiroth (despite the lack of a consensus on whether the product field should have the game name or not), and I personally want to handle radios in the same way, epecially if a radio also has an own product name.
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  #10  
Old May 13, 2010, 08:44 AM
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I don't know enough Japanese to understand one, so I guess I don't really have a clue of what a DJCD is. If it has game characters at all, I'd probably consider it for the Game category, unless there was enough reason to consider the CD itself a separate product in the franchise. In that regard, any drama CD could be considered a standalone product. If we do that, every drama and DJ CD in the database falls under Radio/Drama, and not under Game or Anime, etc. I'm not sure we want that.

Advent Children is different. It's a music CD that is related to the Advent Children anime product. That product falls under the Final Fantasy VII title along with Final Fantasy VII the game, so the relationship to the game occurs at a higher level. This stuff will all ultimately be more connected when we have products and franchises.
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  #11  
Old May 13, 2010, 10:33 AM
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Well, I also don't consider the CD itself as a product, but I'm inclined to see the radio show as a standalone product. I would have no problem to categorize drama albums as "Game", because a drama album that is based on the game is, just like a game soundtrack, a "release" from the game product so it makes sense to put it into the game category.

On the other hand, a radio album isn't directly connected to the game itself. A radio show is more like another adaption of the game, and as I stated, its focus is less on the game characters and story. The communications with listeners and the actual personalities of the voice actors, instead. So it looks more fair to me to give radio shows a position as a product like we do for anime or publication.

However, I see my viewpoint can potentially conflict some people's structural image of VGMdb; if we start to see a radio show as a product, we may end up adding "products" to the database which basically only covers "releases", because one can argue radio album are closer to game cartridges, game discs and anime DVDs, all of which we don't cover.

Since ever I read the discussion on this thread over the album which was a typical Radio/DJCD album, I think I've formed a (possibly wrong) notion that the Drama/Radio category was added to cover this kind of album.

Perhaps we need to discuss more about this, when the product table finally comes, or in a category/platform/product discussion thread.
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  #12  
Old May 13, 2010, 11:23 AM
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I think I may have misled you.

Anything related to a radio show or an internet show does fall under the Talk/Drama category, or at least that's my impression of the purpose for that category.
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  #13  
Old May 15, 2010, 05:12 AM
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So, unless I've missed something, this is what the new Classification listing would look like:

Quote:
Original Soundtrack
Arrangement
Vocal
Drama
Live Event
Remix
Original Work
Talk
Remaster
--------
Image
Commercial (as in TV commercial)
Licensed
Unused
Sound Effect
Voice Clip
Silence
Data Track
Video
I think some of these need some more explanation, and there is possibly some overlap. We might also consider tightening these up.

In an "image album", and an "image song", is the definition of "image" the same, or are these completely different classifications?

Also, when does something qualify as "licensed"?
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  #14  
Old May 15, 2010, 05:46 AM
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If you want to reduce the number of classification, I'd suggest merging Image and Commercial because when the VG industry uses j-pop songs for Commercial, not in the game, they are often called Image Songs.

By the way, even with so many classifications, I still think it's a bit tricky how to handle the case where the soundtrack and the actual in-game music sound different. This typically happens when the OST covers the composer's original intention that he/she had to give up due to the limitation of the console (the space of memory, the number of channel, whatnot). Or when the album includes a longer version of the opening FMV theme song that is shortened in the game. Or when the composer changes music for an OST release (Go Shiina seems to have this tendency).

If both the original version and the in-game version are included, I think we tend to classify the other as "Arrangement" but when only the original version is there, I'm not sure which to select (for instance, our FFXII entry is still classified as Original Soundtrack). I think this may be related to how to use "Remaster" which the current guideline message doesn't refer to.
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  #15  
Old May 15, 2010, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
Also, when does something qualify as "licensed"?
Like CHz said:
Quote:
Non-game compositions that were used in the game. With a little bit of a stretch, this could also apply to albums like this, which are non-game compositions not used in the game.
I think that Licensed classificaton it would fit mainly for albums like this. Perhaps this classification also can be used for arranged tracks, like Disney songs in Kingdom Hearts series.
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  #16  
Old May 15, 2010, 06:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
In an "image album", and an "image song", is the definition of "image" the same, or are these completely different classifications?
I'd say the only difference is that an image album will typically end up being like a "beta" version of the OST, with at least some themes from the image album making it into the finished product, though perhaps after being further arranged/edited. As far as I know image singles usually feature vocal track(s) that don't end up in the finished product at all.
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  #17  
Old May 15, 2010, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanne View Post
I'd say the only difference is that an image album will typically end up being like a "beta" version of the OST, with at least some themes from the image album making it into the finished product, though perhaps after being further arranged/edited. As far as I know image singles usually feature vocal track(s) that don't end up in the finished product at all.
Well, if so, I'm not sure about my latest post. I want "Unused" to be "Unused/Prototype", since this database already has several albums that have prototypes versions (listed below), but "Image" looks closer to "Unused/Prototype" in some attributes than "Commercial"... (indeed, I worry if "Image", "Prototype" and "Unused" are basically the same in that it's composed for a specific product but not used). Maybe I need to think more carefully before suggesting whatever is on my mind

http://vgmdb.net/album/6958
http://vgmdb.net/album/6329 (according to this comment, they are indeed the prototype versions)
http://vgmdb.net/album/16955
http://vgmdb.net/album/11758
http://vgmdb.net/album/18604
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  #18  
Old May 15, 2010, 07:29 AM
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We could combine this classification into "Image/Prototype/Unused". I'm not sure where Commercial (as in TV commercial) fits in. It seems like such a small niche that maybe it doesn't need its own classification.

EDIT -- Maybe for conciseness, we should stick with Image/Prototype.
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  #19  
Old May 15, 2010, 09:10 AM
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http://vgmdb.net/album/8340
http://vgmdb.net/album/8787
http://vgmdb.net/album/9437
http://vgmdb.net/album/15869
http://vgmdb.net/album/19179

I'm not sure how many "Commercial" albums have ever been released so far, but I know we already have several entries (correct me if any of the albums listed above does appear in the games). Also, there are apparently more to add (such as those for FINAL FANTASY CRYSTAL CHRONICLES Echoes of Time, No More Heroes). I know we can use "Original Works" and some descriptions in the note instead of "Commercial", though.

As this issue is pretty tough, I want to organize my thoughts for a while, but I feel the term like Image album or Image song is loosely used (it could fall under any of Original Soundtrack, Compilation, Arrangement, Original Work, or Prototypes, depending on the content).
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  #20  
Old May 22, 2010, 01:59 AM
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I was thinking the "remix" type looks a bit out of place. It's essentially a subset of "arrange" (=music based on another), plus when a track is a 'remix' is often a personal appreciation and doesn't give much actual info to the users. I'd rather stick the more general "arrange".

For example why is this album "arrangement, remix"? Are some tracks 'more arranged' than others? Just because of its name?

I agree with Cedille that we could add a classification for those albums that are meant to represent the OSTs but sound different/better like FF12 or many DS OSTs. Maybe "remaster/original"?

Also "Sound Effect", "Voice Clip" could be combined in one like "Sounds" for conciseness. Doesn't seem there are that many cases to have them separated.
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  #21  
Old May 22, 2010, 03:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dag View Post
I was thinking the "remix" type looks a bit out of place. It's essentially a subset of "arrange" (=music based on another), plus when a track is a 'remix' is often a personal appreciation and doesn't give much actual info to the users. I'd rather stick the more general "arrange".

For example why is this album "arrangement, remix"? Are some tracks 'more arranged' than others? Just because of its name?
The difference is a remix uses the audio from the original work, and an arrangement doesn't. That album probably contains both arranges and remixes, but I'm not expert. Remix is a relative latecomer to the category list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dag View Post
I agree with Cedille that we could add a classification for those albums that are meant to represent the OSTs but sound different/better like FF12 or many DS OSTs. Maybe "remaster/original"?
I think this is what the Remaster category is used for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dag View Post
Also "Sound Effect", "Voice Clip" could be combined in one like "Sounds" for conciseness. Doesn't seem there are that many cases to have them separated.
Yeah, we could do this. Voice really only applies to games anyway. Voices in an anime track would probably get filed under Drama.
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  #22  
Old May 22, 2010, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
I think this is what the Remaster category is used for.
I think remaster should be strictly used for remastered albums. Some DS albums fit, stuff like the FF12 album absolutely do not. It's not an arrange album within the usual definition, but it also doesn't have anything in common with the in-game music's sound design. Imo as soon as the sound on an album significantly diverges from the one in the game it should no longer be called original nor remastered.
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  #23  
Old May 22, 2010, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dag View Post
For example why is this album "arrangement, remix"? Are some tracks 'more arranged' than others? Just because of its name?
I added "Remix" to that album simply because some artists' roles were explicitly listed as remixers.
http://www.famitsu.com/game/news/1234412_1124.html
http://zuntata.jp/special/ww/index.html

Last edited by Cedille; May 22, 2010 at 10:17 PM.
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  #24  
Old May 24, 2010, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Datschge View Post
I think remaster should be strictly used for remastered albums. Some DS albums fit, stuff like the FF12 album absolutely do not. It's not an arrange album within the usual definition, but it also doesn't have anything in common with the in-game music's sound design. Imo as soon as the sound on an album significantly diverges from the one in the game it should no longer be called original nor remastered.
I've never heard this FF12 album, so I don't know what it really is. Why doesn't it fit into any of our current or proposed classifications?
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  #25  
Old May 24, 2010, 05:20 PM
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I have to second the circle diagram idea, very nice. If you also include the ability to filter according to % of classification in the diagram you'd have one hell of a system on your hands.
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Old May 24, 2010, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
I've never heard this FF12 album, so I don't know what it really is. Why doesn't it fit into any of our current or proposed classifications?
Sakimoto created the score using his equipment, i.e. in a streamed fashion. At some point during the development it was decided to only include the score in sequenced form and Sakimoto refused to do the necessary adaption. So Keiji Kawamori (according to Lierre at cocoebiz) had to adapt the score to PS2, simplifying it rather significantly on the way. The OST uses the sound as done by Sakimoto, not as actually used in-game.

There are other cases like this one, e.g. the Valkyrie Profile DS OST uses newly done arrangements by Sakuraba, while the actual in-game sound was ported (in the cases of reused music from VP1) respectively adapted by Hideki Sakamoto and Yasuhiro Kawagoe (whether that's a case like FF12 I don't know). Tales of Innocence OST, battle tracks from Tales of Legendia apply as well. The reverse case (score redone just for the OST instead direct in-game recordings for whatever reason) exists as well: Tales of Destiny "OST", Tales of Eternia "OST" take one, take two and Tales of Phantasia "OST".

Since usually people expect to hear the sounds just like in-game at least some kind of note that the sound does diverge significantly in the above cases is definitely warranted. I don't know if that should be done through classifications though.
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Old May 24, 2010, 06:27 PM
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Same is true for Jade Cocoon and Kileak, Matsumae often re-records and re-mixes his music for soundtrack releases. Actually, pretty much all current-gen albums are similar to this since the music in-game is often interactive and thus built in a different way. The album releases are "arranged" as linear musical pieces to fit the format. It's just something that can't be escaped with game music that is often interactive and/or relies on the hardware/software for in-game playback. Another example is soundtracks for gameboy/NES games that might not use the original hardware but an emulation instead, should we classify them differently too? I don't think so

I still think it's a minor issue but it's interesting to bring up, I personally don't think we need to take any special action.
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Old May 24, 2010, 06:57 PM
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Please listen to one of the example albums I gave. There is nothing minor about the difference between the sound on the album and the in-game sound there. Making non-linear music linear for albums is a whole different issue.
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Old May 25, 2010, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
The difference is a remix uses the audio from the original work, and an arrangement doesn't. That album probably contains both arranges and remixes, but I'm not expert. Remix is a relative latecomer to the category list.
Could you elaborate what you mean? I see it used when tracks are called "x's remix", even if they could be classified as arrange anyway (ex). Also traditionally in the west "remix" is used like "arrange" is in the east (tweaked track based on another). I don't really get the distinction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
I think this is what the Remaster category is used for.
Well I believe it's just for remastered reprints (Gigablah's post), maybe that changed? There are only 18 "remasters" right now. That info is probably better in the notes while the "remastered" classification could be extended to cover Datschge's examples (notable sound differences from the game source). It would be nice to know what DS OSTs don't use the DS-fied tracks and such for similar albums. Though the term "remaster" may be misleading since it implies there was post-processing done compared with the OSTs (it's often the other way around).
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  #30  
Old May 25, 2010, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dag View Post
Could you elaborate what you mean? I see it used when tracks are called "x's remix", even if they could be classified as arrange anyway (ex). Also traditionally in the west "remix" is used like "arrange" is in the east (tweaked track based on another). I don't really get the distinction.
A remix involves manipulating and building on top of the original recorded track (or the original project files/tracks provided they're available to the remixer.) An arrangement uses the original composition to make a new track, but not does not use the original track. And yes, you're right there are some arrangements that referred to as remixes, the two terms are used synonymously by some.

Last edited by Ira; May 25, 2010 at 01:49 PM.
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