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  #31  
Old Nov 29, 2021, 05:12 PM
yindesu yindesu is offline
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Did anyone else's booklet seem not entirely pristine? When I took mine out of my copy of COCX-41640~4, it seems like there is a bit of a puncture point near the top middle, to the right of "MUSICIANS" on that last page, which is obvious under direct light.
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  #32  
Old Nov 29, 2021, 11:57 PM
sonicrings4 sonicrings4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yindesu View Post
Did anyone else's booklet seem not entirely pristine? When I took mine out of my copy of COCX-41640~4, it seems like there is a bit of a puncture point near the top middle, to the right of "MUSICIANS" on that last page, which is obvious under direct light.
A picture would be very helpful to accompany your remark.
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  #33  
Old Nov 30, 2021, 10:35 AM
yindesu yindesu is offline
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Originally Posted by sonicrings4 View Post
A picture would be very helpful to accompany your remark.
My camera wasn't able to capture it with or without flash. It's basically a subtle dent.
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  #34  
Old Dec 2, 2021, 09:15 PM
sonicrings4 sonicrings4 is offline
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TFW you realize like 90% of the tracks are still cutoff at 16kHz like they were on the Wii. Nintendo essentially sold us a gamerip. How disappointing.

Last edited by sonicrings4; Dec 2, 2021 at 10:15 PM.
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  #35  
Old Dec 3, 2021, 03:26 AM
zierts zierts is offline
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Rippers do what Nintendon't. Or when Miyamotoolate.

How'd they handle the dynamic sections? And which tracks aren't capped at 32 kHz?

Last edited by zierts; Dec 3, 2021 at 03:32 AM.
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  #36  
Old Dec 3, 2021, 09:40 AM
yindesu yindesu is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zierts View Post
And which tracks aren't capped at 32 kHz?
Is there a (batch/automated) tool to do this?

edit: I have discovered MusicScope, which will work with some massaging. It writes a report per-file with the dB level at each kHz level, but for some reason it isn't writing a "Cut-Off Frequency" value for the files where 16-22 kHz all report -96.0 dB, so I'd have to write a program to generate a report from their report.

(Do we know how much of the soundtrack was performed by musicians vs. synthesized?)

Last edited by yindesu; Dec 3, 2021 at 11:36 AM.
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  #37  
Old Dec 3, 2021, 01:03 PM
zierts zierts is offline
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sonicrings4 seems to have looked into this already, so maybe it'd be easier to sit out their reply.

The OST weighs in at 187 tracks. Checking the 233 streamed sound files in the game, the distribution is as follows:

orchestra (+ vocal) = 70
orchestra + synth = 7
vocal = 3
vocal + synth = 1
synth = 152

Give or take as there are surely duplicates. Add to that some sequenced music (1-34 "Bazaar", 2-01 "Battle" and maybe a few others) to get the final number of the synth tracks. But you can see that they went all in with the orchestra after Super Mario Galaxy.
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  #38  
Old Dec 3, 2021, 02:37 PM
yindesu yindesu is offline
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I don't actually know anything about loudness math - I have no idea how to turn these MusicScope reports into frequency cutoff values that ignore the tiny sporadic peaks that sometimes occur probably due to the "sound restoration" and "mastering" done by the record company. Still, I don't think the numbers corrobate that figure.

Using a totally silent (-96.0 dB) cutoff, I count,
* 16 files silent from 16-22kHz
* 37 files silent above 17-22kHz
* 3 files silent above 18-22kHz
* 2 files silent above 19-22kHz
* 2 files silent above 21-22kHz
* 9 files silent at 22.0kHz
(69/187 files)

Using an unrealistic threshold of fails that fail to make sound higher than -70.0dB at 22.0kHz, then I count only 122/187 files.

Last edited by yindesu; Dec 3, 2021 at 02:39 PM.
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  #39  
Old Dec 3, 2021, 04:06 PM
sonicrings4 sonicrings4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zierts View Post
Rippers do what Nintendon't. Or when Miyamotoolate.

How'd they handle the dynamic sections? And which tracks aren't capped at 32 kHz?
I can post a full comprehensive list when I get on the PC. I'm currently remoting into my PC to check spectrals but it's too tedious to do this all on a laptop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yindesu View Post
Is there a (batch/automated) tool to do this?

edit: I have discovered MusicScope, which will work with some massaging. It writes a report per-file with the dB level at each kHz level, but for some reason it isn't writing a "Cut-Off Frequency" value for the files where 16-22 kHz all report -96.0 dB, so I'd have to write a program to generate a report from their report.

(Do we know how much of the soundtrack was performed by musicians vs. synthesized?)
You don't want random software that "determine" by some arbitrary means whether a song is lossless or not. That's of no help to anyone. What you want is something that shows you spectrals.

Spek can do this, albeit for one song at a time. For batch processes, use Adobe Audition.

Spoiler:


You can just hit down + enter to go to the next song. The above is a song at full CD quality.

Spoiler:


And the above is a song cutoff at 16kHz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yindesu View Post
I don't actually know anything about loudness math - I have no idea how to turn these MusicScope reports into frequency cutoff values that ignore the tiny sporadic peaks that sometimes occur probably due to the "sound restoration" and "mastering" done by the record company. Still, I don't think the numbers corrobate that figure.

Using a totally silent (-96.0 dB) cutoff, I count,
* 16 files silent from 16-22kHz
* 37 files silent above 17-22kHz
* 3 files silent above 18-22kHz
* 2 files silent above 19-22kHz
* 2 files silent above 21-22kHz
* 9 files silent at 22.0kHz
(69/187 files)

Using an unrealistic threshold of fails that fail to make sound higher than -70.0dB at 22.0kHz, then I count only 122/187 files.
See my above comment. Loudness somewhat works conceptually, but it doesn't account for tracks like this:

Spoiler:


Again, I can post a full list of tracks that are in CD quality later. Or, you can just check your files yourself using any software that can generate spectrals like this.

Last edited by sonicrings4; Dec 3, 2021 at 04:11 PM.
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  #40  
Old Dec 3, 2021, 06:37 PM
sonicrings4 sonicrings4 is offline
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List of CD quality tracks

Disc 1: 1-5, 7, 15-17, 22, 28-30, 33, 35-37

Disc 2: 3, 4, 6-10, 12-15, 18, 19, 23, 27, 29-32

Disc 3: 1, 8, 10-13, 15-17, 21-24, 26-31, 33-36

Disc 4: 1, 2, 6-8, 11-15, 17, 21-28, 30, 35

Disc 5: 1-3, 4-6, 9-16, 22-24, 28, 31-34, 39, 43, 44

So, out of the total 187 tracks, 104 of them are actually CD quality. Certainly a lot more than I expected from the random tracks I decided to check and mentally average across the whole release, but that's still just barely over half the soundtrack, meaning nearly half of it is taken straight from the Wii and, as a result, cutoff at 16kHz.

And that's not to mention any potential reverb nonsense they may have added. I haven't actually listened to this yet (it's currently queued to play after Helynt's new "The Legend of Synthwave Deluxe Edition") but I am aware they added a ton of unnecessary reverb to the Twilight Princess HD ost, so hopefully they didn't end up doing the same thing here.
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  #41  
Old Dec 3, 2021, 07:54 PM
JTurner JTurner is offline
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It sounds to me like the CD quality tracks are the fully orchestrated ones. Doesn't surprise me in the least. I would be honestly surprised if they were at a lower frequency. But considering how the orchestral tracks on Super Mario Galaxy were crisply recorded, it shouldn't be surprising that the same is true for the ones with Skyward Sword.

Whatever quibbles, the release of this soundtrack was long overdue.
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  #42  
Old Dec 3, 2021, 09:34 PM
yindesu yindesu is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonicrings4 View Post
You don't want random software that "determine" by some arbitrary means whether a song is lossless or not. That's of no help to anyone. What you want is something that shows you spectrals.
Are you perhaps trying to quote an old post I made, without reading the currently published post? (My quote inside your post is the current version of my post.) MusicScope generates reports for each file in a playlist, like this, which have nothing to do with "determining" whether a song is lossless or not:
Quote:
106 騎士学校.flac_report.txt
Spectrum:
[kHz] [dB]
1 -21.8
2 -32.4
3 -43.6
4 -54.9
5 -49.0
6 -54.6
7 -60.7
8 -58.5
9 -59.5
10 -62.9
11 -63.2
12 -56.8
13 -64.8
14 -64.7
15 -74.5
16 -96.0
17 -96.0
18 -96.0
19 -96.0
20 -96.0
21 -96.0
22 -96.0
However, as you said, this text report doesn't do a good job of representing files with the random spikes like you gave an example of. There is actually an option to generate an image alongside the txt file.

Last edited by yindesu; Dec 3, 2021 at 09:51 PM.
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  #43  
Old Dec 3, 2021, 09:48 PM
yindesu yindesu is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonicrings4 View Post
And that's not to mention any potential reverb nonsense they may have added. I haven't actually listened to this yet (it's currently queued to play after Helynt's new "The Legend of Synthwave Deluxe Edition") but I am aware they added a ton of unnecessary reverb to the Twilight Princess HD ost, so hopefully they didn't end up doing the same thing here.
Twilight Princess HD came from Tablier Communications / MTC Mastaring. I was led to believe Nippon Columbia handles Zelda music with greater care.

Looking at my numbers, it seems that the majority of Takeshi Hama's tracks have low cutoffs, and the majority of Mahito Yokota's tracks have higher frequencies.

Last edited by yindesu; Dec 3, 2021 at 10:02 PM.
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  #44  
Old Dec 3, 2021, 10:10 PM
sonicrings4 sonicrings4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yindesu View Post
Are you perhaps trying to quote an old post I made, without reading the currently published post? (My quote inside your post is the current version of my post.) MusicScope generates reports for each file in a playlist, like this, which have nothing to do with "determining" whether a song is lossless or not:


However, as you said, this text report doesn't do a good job of representing files with the random spikes like you gave an example of. There is actually an option to generate an image alongside the txt file.
Oh yep, I read your post from the email notification which is where you mentioned Lossless Audio Checker. Didn't realize you completely removed that from your post haha.

But yeah, the software you found still doesn't do a good/intuitive job of determining audio quality. An image is worth a thousand words, as they say. Spek.exe, Adobe Audition, SoX, etc. can produce spectrals, and are used for vetting the audio quality of files.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yindesu View Post
Twilight Princess HD came from Tablier Communications / MTC Mastaring. I was led to believe Nippon Columbia handles Zelda music with greater care.

Looking at my numbers, it seems that the majority of Takeshi Hama's tracks have low cutoffs, and the majority of Mahito Yokota's tracks have higher frequencies.
That's good to hear! I'm currently on the second disc and so far so good, aside from the obvious 16kHz cutoff tracks that is. Though I would probably be more likely to notice added effects like reverb when comparing back to back with the gamerip, which I haven't done yet. Perhaps on a second listen through.

That said though, despite over half the ost being actual CD quality, I'd still be very deceived and would demand my money back. For a set as expensive as this, I'd expect it to be full CD quality. Especially given that it's taken 10 whole years to come out. The tracks that are CD quality are top notch, don't get me wrong, but 83 tracks being cutoff is just... Ouch. :/

Last edited by sonicrings4; Dec 3, 2021 at 10:18 PM.
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  #45  
Old Dec 4, 2021, 02:32 PM
zierts zierts is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonicrings4 View Post
List of CD quality tracks

Disc 1: 1-5, 7, 15-17, 22, 28-30, 33, 35-37

Disc 2: 3, 4, 6-10, 12-15, 18, 19, 23, 27, 29-32

Disc 3: 1, 8, 10-13, 15-17, 21-24, 26-31, 33-36

Disc 4: 1, 2, 6-8, 11-15, 17, 21-28, 30, 35

Disc 5: 1-3, 4-6, 9-16, 22-24, 28, 31-34, 39, 43, 44

So, out of the total 187 tracks, 104 of them are actually CD quality. Certainly a lot more than I expected from the random tracks I decided to check and mentally average across the whole release, but that's still just barely over half the soundtrack, meaning nearly half of it is taken straight from the Wii and, as a result, cutoff at 16kHz.

And that's not to mention any potential reverb nonsense they may have added. I haven't actually listened to this yet (it's currently queued to play after Helynt's new "The Legend of Synthwave Deluxe Edition") but I am aware they added a ton of unnecessary reverb to the Twilight Princess HD ost, so hopefully they didn't end up doing the same thing here.
Awesome work, sonicrings4! I think this (or at least the fact that many tracks use only 32 kHz and not the full 44.1 kHz range internally) should be included in the album information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JTurner View Post
It sounds to me like the CD quality tracks are the fully orchestrated ones.
Based on yindesu's comments, I looked into this and it does not appear to be the case. The recorded orchestra tracks may be the majority of these, but there are definitely (recorded) synth tracks included with the 44.1 kHz tracks. I thought that these may be the ones that have some live instruments included, such as Skyloft where some of the wind instruments sound like live performances to me. But there are also others like 1-33 and 2-13 where I'm pretty sure they're synth-only. Purely sequenced synth tracks such as 1-34 and 2-01 are also 32 kHz by the way (though there may be others which aren't, I didn't check them all).

Quote:
Originally Posted by yindesu View Post
Looking at my numbers, it seems that the majority of Takeshi Hama's tracks have low cutoffs, and the majority of Mahito Yokota's tracks have higher frequencies.
You might be onto something here, so I added the credited composers to sonicrings4's list:

Spoiler:
1-01 Hajime Wakai, Takeshi Hama
1-02 Koji Kondo
1-03 Mahito Yokota
1-04 Mahito Yokota
1-05 Takeshi Hama, Mahito Yokota
1-07 Shiho Fujii
1-15 Hajime Wakai
1-16 Shiho Fujii
1-17 Hajime Wakai
1-22 Mahito Yokota
1-28 Mahito Yokota
1-29 Hajime Wakai
1-30 Hajime Wakai
1-33 Koji Kondo, Shiho Fujii
1-35 Hajime Wakai
1-36 Hajime Wakai
1-37 Hajime Wakai
2-03 Shiho Fujii
2-04 Shiho Fujii
2-06 Shiho Fujii
2-07 Shiho Fujii
2-08 Shiho Fujii
2-09 Shiho Fujii
2-10 Mahito Yokota
2-12 Hajime Wakai
2-13 Shiho Fujii
2-14 Shiho Fujii
2-15 Hajime Wakai
2-18 Shiho Fujii
2-19 Shiho Fujii
2-23 Hajime Wakai
2-27 Hajime Wakai
2-29 Hajime Wakai
2-30 Hajime Wakai
2-31 Hajime Wakai
2-32 Hajime Wakai
3-01 Shiho Fujii
3-08 Hajime Wakai
3-10 Hajime Wakai
3-11 Hajime Wakai
3-12 Hajime Wakai
3-13 Hajime Wakai
3-15 Shiho Fujii
3-16 Hajime Wakai
3-17 Shiho Fujii
3-21 Hajime Wakai
3-22 Hajime Wakai
3-23 Shiho Fujii
3-24 Hajime Wakai
3-26 Hajime Wakai
3-27 Shiho Fujii
3-28 Hajime Wakai
3-29 Hajime Wakai
3-30 Hajime Wakai
3-31 Shiho Fujii
3-33 Mahito Yokota
3-34 Mahito Yokota
3-35 Mahito Yokota
3-36 Mahito Yokota
4-01 Hajime Wakai
4-02 Shiho Fujii
4-06 Shiho Fujii
4-07 Mahito Yokota
4-08 Mahito Yokota
4-11 Hajime Wakai
4-12 Hajime Wakai
4-13 Hajime Wakai
4-14 Shiho Fujii
4-15 Hajime Wakai
4-17 Hajime Wakai
4-21 Hajime Wakai
4-22 Mahito Yokota
4-23 Hajime Wakai
4-24 Mahito Yokota
4-25 Hajime Wakai
4-26 Shiho Fujii
4-27 Shiho Fujii
4-28 Hajime Wakai
4-30 Hajime Wakai
4-35 Mahito Yokota
5-01 Hajime Wakai
5-02 Shiho Fujii
5-03 Takeshi Hama
5-04 Mahito Yokota
5-05 Hajime Wakai
5-06 Mahito Yokota
5-09 Shiho Fujii
5-10 Shiho Fujii
5-11 Mahito Yokota
5-12 Mahito Yokota
5-13 Hajime Wakai
5-14 Mahito Yokota
5-15 Hajime Wakai
5-16 Hajime Wakai
5-22 Mahito Yokota
5-23 Mahito Yokota
5-24 Hajime Wakai
5-28 Shiho Fujii
5-31 Hajime Wakai
5-32 Hajime Wakai
5-33 Hajime Wakai
5-34 Hajime Wakai
5-39 Hajime Wakai
5-43 Hajime Wakai
5-44 Hajime Wakai

Yep, while there are definitely not all compositions by the other composers included in the true 44.1 kHz tracks, Takeshi Hama is clearly underrepresented in there with only 1-01 (orchestra recording), 1-05 (orchestra recording) and 5-03 (reverse cymbal at the beginning possibly a recorded live instrument). Also note how Hama's 1-23 and 1-24 are cut off at 32 kHz in the album despite being orchestra recordings.


So there's no clear pattern to establish as to which tracks were cut off. Some are orchestra tracks, some are synth tracks, across most if not all composers, but with Hama suffering the most. Interesting.
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  #46  
Old Dec 9, 2021, 01:21 PM
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Is someone able to do some proper scans? Maybe from the booklet?
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  #47  
Old Dec 9, 2021, 04:44 PM
yindesu yindesu is offline
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You'd need a book-edge scanner.
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  #48  
Old Dec 10, 2021, 01:43 AM
zierts zierts is offline
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I corrected the album info on the sample rate cut-off so as not to cause any confusion. It's the individual audio channels that are cut off at 16 kHz (instead of being 22.5 kHz). Hence, the tracks are cut off at 32 kHz. If the tracks were cut off at 16 kHz, Columbia would have an even bigger problem on their hands...
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  #49  
Old Dec 10, 2021, 03:56 AM
sonicrings4 sonicrings4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zierts View Post
I corrected the album info on the sample rate cut-off so as not to cause any confusion. It's the individual audio channels that are cut off at 16 kHz (instead of being 22.5 kHz). Hence, the tracks are cut off at 32 kHz. If the tracks were cut off at 16 kHz, Columbia would have an even bigger problem on their hands...
When someone says a track is cutoff at 16kHz, it means frequencies above 16kHz don't exist. It's incorrect to say they're cutoff at 32kHz. The sample rate is 32khz, but frequencies are always half that of the sample rate.

Think of it this way: if they were cutoff at 32khz, that would suggest the sample rate exceeds 64kHz. It would imply they're 96khz tracks, because only files with a 96kHz sample rate would have frequencies that go up to 48kHz to make a 32kHz cutoff become an issue.

There's nothing unclear about the way the comment was written. People generally know the threshold of human hearing to be 20-20000 Hz, so they'll understand that a cutoff of 16kHz falls within the audible range that they'll notice. Incorrectly stating it's a cutoff at 32kHz will simply cause confusion. I've changed the numbers back to 16. I appreciate your willingness to help, though!

Here is an image to aid you visually:
Spoiler:



The frequencies stop at around the 16kHz range. Therefore, they are cutoff at 16khz.

Last edited by sonicrings4; Dec 10, 2021 at 04:10 AM.
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  #50  
Old Dec 14, 2021, 02:59 AM
zierts zierts is offline
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I see where you're coming from. The wording in your latest edit is much clearer now.
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  #51  
Old Dec 22, 2021, 08:13 AM
JTurner JTurner is offline
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Quick question: are there any tracks missing from this album?
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  #52  
Old Dec 23, 2021, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTurner View Post
Quick question: are there any tracks missing from this album?
I don't think there are, the tracklist seems rather comprehensive unless there is some very specific track that I'm not aware of.
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  #53  
Old Dec 24, 2021, 06:09 AM
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Just a quick thanks for the amazing scans @coron ! Merry Christmas to everyone
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  #54  
Old Dec 24, 2021, 06:22 AM
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Just a quick thanks for the amazing scans @coron ! Merry Christmas to everyone
My pleasure. I really should get a better scanner, I only have a really cheap Canon Lide 120.
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  #55  
Old Dec 27, 2021, 12:40 PM
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I think it's too bold to say that the tracks with 16 kHz cut-offs are "taken straight from the Wii's source files with 32kHz sample rate." Apart from changes made in mastering, if you A/B compare them they don't all sound the same. Listen to "A Moment with Zelda" for example. The overall frequency balance is pretty different and there is a high-pitched noise/distortion on the Wii version, that I believe is an artifact of the BRSTM compression, that is absent on the OST. You might think they simply hid it with EQ, but listen to "Knight Academy" and you will find a waveform, frequency balance, and dynamic range extremely similar to the game version, yet without the high frequency noise.

I don't know if perhaps the best sources they had for these tracks were after the sampling rate reduction but before BRSTM compression or what, but those tracks are not simply ripped from the Wii game.
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  #56  
Old Jan 8, 2022, 10:35 PM
sonicrings4 sonicrings4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _if View Post
I think it's too bold to say that the tracks with 16 kHz cut-offs are "taken straight from the Wii's source files with 32kHz sample rate." Apart from changes made in mastering, if you A/B compare them they don't all sound the same. Listen to "A Moment with Zelda" for example. The overall frequency balance is pretty different and there is a high-pitched noise/distortion on the Wii version, that I believe is an artifact of the BRSTM compression, that is absent on the OST. You might think they simply hid it with EQ, but listen to "Knight Academy" and you will find a waveform, frequency balance, and dynamic range extremely similar to the game version, yet without the high frequency noise.

I don't know if perhaps the best sources they had for these tracks were after the sampling rate reduction but before BRSTM compression or what, but those tracks are not simply ripped from the Wii game.
True. I see we're back to where we started with the note then haha. Thank you for the added clarification and confirmation that it was already worded properly in the first place.
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