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  #31  
Old Apr 22, 2010, 04:11 AM
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I agree with Cedille, Seanne, and Another, particularly after seeing how excited people are about the upcoming content filter, so that they can remove doujins from display. Also, it is clear that we don't know how to tell if a publisher is Commercial, or Doujin, or Independent. Is it some license, or a revenue threshhold, or number of albums produced/artists represented? It's more of "I know it when I see it."

After sleeping on this, I'm beginning to think that Publisher type, as in the Publisher's status as a business, shouldn't be on the album pages. It should be on the publisher page, because it's fixed thing that rarely changes.

An alternative is to list Publication type. Some ideas for this:

Commercial -- Usually sold; publisher has rights to all content; consumer has no redistribution rights
Open -- Usually downloaded; publisher has rights to all content; consumer is granted redistribution rights
Fan-Arrange -- May be sold or downloaded; publisher has rights to derived content, but not to the original content
Bootleg -- Usually sold; publisher has no rights to distribute content

The names certainly aren't set in stone, and there are some permutations that aren't listed. More discussion would be needed. I think this categorizes albums in a way that you can better filter out stuff you don't want to see.
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  #32  
Old Apr 22, 2010, 05:12 AM
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I am for that solution.
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  #33  
Old Apr 22, 2010, 06:08 AM
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I'm ok with this.
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  #34  
Old Apr 22, 2010, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
I agree with Cedille, Seanne, and Another, particularly after seeing how excited people are about the upcoming content filter, so that they can remove doujins from display. Also, it is clear that we don't know how to tell if a publisher is Commercial, or Doujin, or Independent. Is it some license, or a revenue threshhold, or number of albums produced/artists represented? It's more of "I know it when I see it."

After sleeping on this, I'm beginning to think that Publisher type, as in the Publisher's status as a business, shouldn't be on the album pages. It should be on the publisher page, because it's fixed thing that rarely changes.

An alternative is to list Publication type. Some ideas for this:

Commercial -- Usually sold; publisher has rights to all content; consumer has no redistribution rights
Open -- Usually downloaded; publisher has rights to all content; consumer is granted redistribution rights
Fan-Arrange -- May be sold or downloaded; publisher has rights to derived content, but not to the original content
Bootleg -- Usually sold; publisher has no rights to distribute content

The names certainly aren't set in stone, and there are some permutations that aren't listed. More discussion would be needed. I think this categorizes albums in a way that you can better filter out stuff you don't want to see.
Very sleek solution, nice! I've always been a bit miffed that publisher type dictates the color and so on

Just an addition, what would a free album where the consumer is not granted redistribution? They are few and far between but I've seen albums, I'll get back to you if I find a good example, I know there are stuff like this on bandcamp.

Also is there any idea implementing a "Creative Commons" category where you can actually specify the type of CC license used? CC has been increasingly common when it comes to original music at the very least and if this goes into VGM more it would certainly be nice to have. Another benefit is supporting this publication type and having an accurate database of work that can legally be remixed/re-arranged/altered and how.
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  #35  
Old Apr 22, 2010, 11:23 AM
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Playing devils advocate, we might be crossing the line on turning this field into another content one.

It is possible that there could be an album with 1 original track, 1 fan arrange track, 1 track which they previously put up for free distribution, 1 licensed track, and 1 bootleg track they stole from someone else's album, and had no right to redistribute. That would practically be unclassifiable here.
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  #36  
Old Apr 22, 2010, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
Playing devils advocate, we might be crossing the line on turning this field into another content one.

It is possible that there could be an album with 1 original track, 1 fan arrange track, 1 track which they previously put up for free distribution, 1 licensed track, and 1 bootleg track they stole from someone else's album, and had no right to redistribute. That would practically be unclassifiable here.
Right, that's part of what I've been saying is that using it like that seems to overlap with the classification of the album. Also, similar to what you've said, what about albums that have a single arrangement on them but are otherwise original work? It doesn't seem right to me for the whole thing to get classified 'fan-arrange' because of that.

I guess I'm withdrawing my position of 'ok with this.' It still has some problems to be worked out.
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  #37  
Old Apr 22, 2010, 11:57 AM
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Well then, polish up the classification, make the class dictate the color coding, add the possibility of combining classification (original+arrange) (soundtrack+arrange) (fan-arrange+anime) and so on first? Publisher type still seems like it's not as important as content in my opinion but I might be outnumbered.
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  #38  
Old Apr 22, 2010, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ira View Post
what about albums that have a single arrangement on them but are otherwise original work? It doesn't seem right to me for the whole thing to get classified 'fan-arrange' because of that.
Release type would just specify; professional, non-professional or bootleg. So the kind of album you mention would first be put into either category and then classified accordingly (with 'arrangement' and 'original work', in this case). We have several albums like this in the db, both by professional and non-professional artists.

The case SS suggests (though if it's not a very likely one) is more complicated since it involves several release types. I think normally it's almost impossible for there to be a conflict between the three we have. It's either going to be one or the other.
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  #39  
Old Apr 22, 2010, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
It is possible that there could be an album with 1 original track, 1 fan arrange track, 1 track which they previously put up for free distribution, 1 licensed track, and 1 bootleg track they stole from someone else's album, and had no right to redistribute. That would practically be unclassifiable here.
There just need to be a clarification of the relations of the classifications. E.g. if an album is sold it is commercial, no matter how many otherwise openly available tracks it contains. Also the term bootleg is so far being used for commercial releases without the original copyright holder's consent, so a bootleg album can't be commercial and vice versa. And fan-arranged means a fan made the work, possibly without consent of the original copyright holder but also not as a 1:1 copy bootleg. I don't think this leaves much of overlaps. In your above extreme example I'd say the resulting album is a clear bootleg (unless there's actually a doujin work containing both fan arranged and bootlegged content, or a commercial work containing licensed and bootlegged content which would seem very odd to me).
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  #40  
Old Apr 23, 2010, 06:43 AM
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Yeah, my example was kind of crazy, on purpose.

Taking a step back, we need a way for the user to filter out doujin/fan-arranges, and bootlegs. This was one of our earliest requirements. Originally we didn't have all of these other classifiers; we just has this one classification field that served this purpose.

So no matter what we want to call it, and whether it replaces this field, or whether it is generated from track content instead of set, it's still an absolute requirement. The classification I proposed above based loosely on licensing was a first stab, but it might be worthwhile to develop it further.
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  #41  
Old Apr 23, 2010, 11:48 AM
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I think the current system (commercial/doujin/bootleg) is good enough and covers most cases, and honestly I always thought the field meant album publication type. Though I'd prefer Official (=non Doujin) or rather "General" over Commercial (=implies 'money').

I see it as a general idea of the album type. There will be always edge cases (=old 'independent' type) but so what, pick the most likely type and add some notes if you must. Can't classify every album perfectly? Oh well.

For Doujin, to me it's more about the 'intention' of the publisher/person. Like if Uematsu made some free, new album for his site that'd be official (=he'd want it to be as official as any FF ost). But if he arranged some Touhou stuff or compose for a doujin label/circle/game/anime or remixed on Overclocked Remix that could be Doujin (=part of the Doujin subculture). I don't think professionalism should matter to classify Doujin (ex). And like Cedille said it shouldn't cover all the 'independent' releases.

Anyway seems the "indepedent" type was already merged so no much left to discuss I guess.
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  #42  
Old May 4, 2010, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanne View Post
Release type would just specify; professional, non-professional or bootleg. So the kind of album you mention would first be put into either category and then classified accordingly (with 'arrangement' and 'original work', in this case). We have several albums like this in the db, both by professional and non-professional artists.

The case SS suggests (though if it's not a very likely one) is more complicated since it involves several release types. I think normally it's almost impossible for there to be a conflict between the three we have. It's either going to be one or the other.
Question, is professional related to if the actual album is sold or not or if the composer is professional (i.e. paid), if the game is commercial or if the publisher is "professional"? I dunno, I still have some question marks in general here.

Are we abandoning "Publish Format"? I most certainly hope so. It annoys me to no and that it's the field (afaik) dictating the release type, color coding and so on. In my example people are now sorting away the official soundtrack to Kaleidoscope ( http://vgmdb.net/album/17965 ) because it's labeled as Doujin/Indie, thinking it's a fan-arrange album. Not saying I've made the best album or anything but I think it's odd. Also not saying Doujin MEANS fan-arrange (it doesn't) but that doesn't change the issue.

MOAR DISCUSSION PLZ
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  #43  
Old May 4, 2010, 02:29 PM
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So, after thinking/talking about it a bit here's a short proposal:
  • Remove publisher type entirely. It's not useful as the main goal seems to be to distinguish albums which are made up of (or contain) fan-arranges from those that aren't. It's also a difficult thing to determine at times (as there is no one definition of indie/commercial/etc.)
  • Add a check box for designating albums as bootlegs.
  • Split the 'arrange' classification into 'arrange' and 'fan-arrange'.
    • Arrange (or official-arrange): Arranges endorsed/published by the rights holders (such as this) or arrangements by the original composer (such as this.)
    • Fan-arrange (or unofficial-arrange): Arranges that aren't endorsed by the rights holders.
This still isn't a perfect solution as there is still some gray area with albums like this where it's unknown whether endorsement from the rights holders was obtained.

Thoughts, feedback, glaring issues?
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  #44  
Old May 4, 2010, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ira View Post
So, after thinking/talking about it a bit here's a short proposal:
  • Remove publisher type entirely. It's not useful as the main goal seems to be to distinguish albums which are made up of (or contain) fan-arranges from those that aren't. It's also a difficult thing to determine at times (as there is no one definition of indie/commercial/etc.)
  • Add a check box for designating albums as bootlegs.
  • Split the 'arrange' classification into 'arrange' and 'fan-arrange'.
    • Arrange (or official-arrange): Arranges endorsed/published by the rights holders (such as this) or arrangements by the original composer (such as this.)
    • Fan-arrange (or unofficial-arrange): Arranges that aren't endorsed by the rights holders.
This still isn't a perfect solution as there is still some gray area with albums like this where it's unknown whether endorsement from the rights holders was obtained.

Thoughts, feedback, glaring issues?
I'm strongly in favor of this. Note also that just clicking the publisher gives you the "Publish Type" since that was mostly depending on the publisher's status anyway so the info isn't lost. Also, classification should dictate the color coding of the album as it's more accurate imo, reasons stated above.

EDIT: Additionally would it be possible to, when setting Classification, pick which one is the "Main" classification? Maybe using amount of tracks as the criteria for what's the main classification. For example, an original soundtrack featuring 3 bonus arrangement tracks would be classified as both Original Soundtrack and Arrangement, Original Soundtrack giving it the "color" and main category?
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  #45  
Old May 4, 2010, 07:05 PM
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The Fan Arrange classification is an interesting idea. I assume that we would give the orange color code to any album that had at least 1 Fan Arrange track.

We still might be able to salvage something from the Publisher Type field if we can somehow fold in the redistribution rights.
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  #46  
Old May 5, 2010, 03:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
The Fan Arrange classification is an interesting idea. I assume that we would give the orange color code to any album that had at least 1 Fan Arrange track.
So say, 1 fan arrange track and 9 original tracks would result in orange and not blue? This would make sense if we think of VGM as the "important" classification otherwise I'm unsure. My first thought was to use the classification most appropriate (i.e. true for the most tracks) as the color coding. thoughts?
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  #47  
Old May 5, 2010, 03:57 AM
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We probably need to find some examples to see how this would work out.
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  #48  
Old May 5, 2010, 04:16 AM
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http://vgmdb.net/album/8119 - one fan-arrangement, 10 original tracks What gets the upper hand? Fan-arrangement is more relevant to VGMdb but it is mainly an original album.
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  #49  
Old May 5, 2010, 04:48 AM
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Well, that album has a Final Fantasy VII track. I think it would be of interest to someone who was looking for Final Fantasy fan arranges, so we wouldn't want it to be excluded from their searches just because of their filter settings.

Note: I haven't experimented enough to determine when unclassified albums are filtered. We should probably set up a few use cases. Maybe the Classification (Original, Arrange, Drama, etc.) should be added to the filter.
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  #50  
Old May 5, 2010, 04:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
Well, that album has a Final Fantasy VII track. I think it would be of interest to someone who was looking for Final Fantasy fan arranges, so we wouldn't want it to be excluded from their searches just because of their filter settings.

Note: I haven't experimented enough to determine when unclassified albums are filtered. We should probably set up a few use cases. Maybe the Classification (Original, Arrange, Drama, etc.) should be added to the filter.
Well yes, it should definitely specify both. That's why I think that the "color coding" is too simple to be the basis of filtering since it only gives ONE view of an album. I'm strongly in favor of Classification as filter (already suggested it to Blah). Maybe set up a rule like "if [Arrange] is included, ignore [Work] filter" so people filtering out [Work] wouldn't miss out on the FFVII arrangement on this album.
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  #51  
Old May 5, 2010, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ira View Post
[*] Split the 'arrange' classification into 'arrange' and 'fan-arrange'.
  • Arrange (or official-arrange): Arranges endorsed/published by the rights holders (such as this) or arrangements by the original composer (such as this.)
  • Fan-arrange (or unofficial-arrange): Arranges that aren't endorsed by the rights holders.
Um, interesting. But if you means getting the licence from the right-holder by "endorsed", I worry some doujin album are treated as official-arrange since some circle apparently pay fees to JASRAC. Given doujin is more about professionalism, I think the classification from a pure standpoint of copyright isn't enough so I'd prefer to keep the publisher type.
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  #52  
Old May 5, 2010, 10:15 AM
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So what classification would ZUN's albums? He's like THE doujin guy. I'd be strange they'd just become "official". Plus I'd guess he 'endorses' Touhou arranges. And 'works' by doujin circles?
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  #53  
Old May 5, 2010, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedille View Post
Um, interesting. But if you means getting the licence from the right-holder by "endorsed", I worry some doujin album are treated as official-arrange since some circle apparently pay fees to JASRAC. Given doujin is more about professionalism, I think the classification from a pure standpoint of copyright isn't enough so I'd prefer to keep the publisher type.
What people seem to want from it is the ability to distinguish fan/unofficial-arranges from the rest of the content on the site, this is a simple way of making that distinction. Perhaps endorsement is the wrong term to use in this case, but I'd also say it's say safe to call doujin arrange albums fan-arranges even if they're paying fees to JASRAC.

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So what classification would ZUN's albums? He's like THE doujin guy. I'd be strange they'd just become "official". Plus I'd guess he 'endorses' Touhou arranges. And 'works' by doujin circles?
I'm not sure if I follow. Do you mean arranges of ZUN's work or work published by ZUN? Arranges of his work would be for the most part fan-arranges, because while ZUN supports the doujin community the only official arranges I'd say are the ones by Twilight Frontier. There are also some arrange albums he's participated on but they should be treated no differently than this. Arranges of his own work would be considered official-arranges and the rest by others unofficial-arranges. As for albums by ZUN, his albums are the 'official' releases representing his work. Nothing regarding the classification of those albums would change from the way it is now (they're all soundtracks or works.)

To clarify:
  • If a composer arranges a track of his own on an album published by fans (such as this or this) the classifications would be both arrange and fan-arrange (the arrangement by the composer being 'arrange' and the others being 'fan-arrange'.)
  • If an arranger appears on an album published by the rights holder the classification given to it would be 'arrange', as it is part of an official release.

Further thoughts:
An alternative, in an attempt to try and make things less arbitrary, is for the 'arrange' classification to be limited to only arranges on albums published by the original rights holder or arranges by the original composer. This too has problems, because there are some albums that are official (or all but) and not published by the original rights holders. So, eh.

Last edited by Ira; May 5, 2010 at 01:14 PM.
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  #54  
Old May 5, 2010, 12:01 PM
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Just a quick note that we could do with a new classification to handle image albums, like this, which will be fairly common on the anime side.
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  #55  
Old May 5, 2010, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
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As for albums by ZUN, his albums are the 'official' releases representing his work. Nothing regarding the classification of those albums would change from the way it is now (they're all soundtracks or works.)
I meant both his own albums and arranges by other people, but mainly his own. I understand if you take away the "Doujin/Indie" type his albums become regular releases/blue, but right now they are doujin/orange so they'd change...?

I don't really mind either way, don't get me wrong, but since ZUN and doujin (as in 'doujin subculture') come together in my mind, I find strange (and maybe others will) they'd suddenly become 'normal' osts' when they have been doujin/orange all this time.

Since doujin covers more than just arranges/fan-arranges it could get confusing, just saying.
And... Mozart arranges wouldn't be fan arranges? :P
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  #56  
Old May 5, 2010, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dag View Post
I meant both his own albums and arranges by other people, but mainly his own. I understand if you take away the "Doujin/Indie" type his albums become regular releases/blue, but right now they are doujin/orange so they'd change...?

I don't really mind either way, don't get me wrong, but since ZUN and doujin (as in 'doujin subculture') come together in my mind, I find strange (and maybe others will) they'd suddenly become 'normal' osts' when they have been doujin/orange all this time.
Well actually, with the previous album classifications all of his albums were blue. So those albums would be more or less going back to how they were before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dag View Post
Since doujin covers more than just arranges/fan-arranges it could get confusing, just saying.
Right, the idea behind the proposal is to remove the publisher type (doujin, commercial, indie, etc.) entirely. Color coding and such would be based on classification.

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And... Mozart arranges wouldn't be fan arranges? :P
They would be fan-arranges, unless Mozart rose from his grave and released an album with some arrange artists on it. No, thinking about this is another issue that would have to be worked out, because it seems odd for them to be labeled fan-arranges under certain circumstances. It's a matter of context, which is why finding a good solution is a pain in the ass. On the other hand, even if it seems 'odd' it's still a rather arbitrary decision to use it in some cases and not in others. The 'oddness' has more to do with the connotation of 'fan-arrange' than anything.

Last edited by Ira; May 5, 2010 at 01:28 PM.
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  #57  
Old May 6, 2010, 02:21 PM
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Regarding the color coding for albums in the page listings, if I understand correctly the problems comes from the fact it is also used as a way to distinguish content on a given album, right?
I think it would be a good idea to simplify the color coding to maybe album status (upcoming, released, delayed/canceled, bootleg, these are universal traits of an album no matter what the content is) and instead use icons next to the album titles denoting what it contains, p.e.
- RND-001 Random Album [GAME] [TV] | [DJN] [ORIGINAL] [FAN ARRANGEMENT] (that would contain original works as well as fan arrangements of both games and animes).
That way, instead of forcing all the categorization info into a single color coding which leaves with incomplete information when browsing albums, all the info would be recognizable at a single glance.

Don't know if it's a really good idea, but it can't hurt to give my two cents.
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  #58  
Old May 8, 2010, 05:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dag View Post
I meant both his own albums and arranges by other people, but mainly his own. I understand if you take away the "Doujin/Indie" type his albums become regular releases/blue, but right now they are doujin/orange so they'd change...?

I don't really mind either way, don't get me wrong, but since ZUN and doujin (as in 'doujin subculture') come together in my mind, I find strange (and maybe others will) they'd suddenly become 'normal' osts' when they have been doujin/orange all this time.
Yeah, Touhou games "officials" (the ZCDS series) used to show up in the general game music color, but now they are doujin/indie. I always prefered it the other way, but that was based on my incorrect understanding of the word "Doujin."

By the way, wasn't the popular PC game Myst produced out of some guy's garage? That would make the Myst soundtrack fall under Doujin/Indie, which is also bizarre.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dag View Post
Since doujin covers more than just arranges/fan-arranges it could get confusing, just saying.
And... Mozart arranges wouldn't be fan arranges? :P
Though one distinction is that Mozart music is all public domain. It's fair game for anyone to use it for any purpose.
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  #59  
Old May 8, 2010, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
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By the way, wasn't the popular PC game Myst produced out of some guy's garage? That would make the Myst soundtrack fall under Doujin/Indie, which is also bizarre.
I don't know anything about Myst personally, but I'll just say the way a game is published doesn't determine the way the soundtrack will be.
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Old May 8, 2010, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
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I don't know anything about Myst personally, but I'll just say the way a game is published doesn't determine the way the soundtrack will be.
The way the music is made (garage or not) is irrelevant if it's an official soundtrack or not (i.e. music featured in the game).

ALSO, "Classification" should only be the content (i.e. arranged music, soundtrack, non-vgm and so on). You're all still talking about "Publish format" aren't you? I'm still in favor of giving publish format a less important role, I really don't understand why it should dictate color (the only thing used to identify albums on the fly)... To me it's way more natural to be looking for albums by content than "Publish format".

Beyond this the actual publisher should already have the relevant "publish format" (i.e. a doujin group is a doujin group and so on) so you can find that info there. Am I wrong?
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