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  #31  
Old May 23, 2012, 11:33 PM
Hellacia Hellacia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHz View Post
Unless people have accounts under different names that I've never known about, I only recognize two other past participants (out of eight other posters in the discussion at that point?), and I think both have stopped participating. Even if there were more, discussion here tends to be less glib and more mellow than there. Things like "nostalgiafag" tend not to get said here, for example.

Sorry for spending so much time on a pretty insignificant point; it just seems like you were expecting a different audience than you got.
No, that's fine, maybe the comment was just out of place here. This isn't Gamingforce even if it has a lot of the same people, and I know that.

I guess my opinion is just shitty and I don't know great art when I hear it (it's not for everyone, apparently). This is according to Jormungand, who is a VGM artist and a composer, so he knows more about music than I do and therefore must have the correct opinion(?). All I know is what I thought of this CD.
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  #32  
Old May 24, 2012, 12:54 AM
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For what it's worth I disagree with Jormungand, I don't think just because it's all grandiose and "different" it's necessarily better or more deserving of praise and merit (for instance I don't much like Sakuraba, not because he's a show off, but because his music doesn't hit me viscerally.) Some of my favourite soundtracks are the dumbest cutesiest things, ie. lots of Nintendo scores. It's apples and oranges, of course.

I dunno, I just don't think you can get away with bashing music for being high-and-mighty in its intent when you don't even know that for a fact, at the same time as awarding your own opinions with the same kind of self-importance. It's kinda hypocritical to me, but it's not just you, it's music reviews generally, everyone does it. Here is one I particularly hate, completely crammed full of assumptions about intent, completely focused on the message it's sending, dismissing the musical content exactly the same way you have (because of presumed "cleverness" - maybe the band simply likes the way it sounds?) and ultimately it's just one idiot's viewpoint, which is fine, yet it's up in print on NME giving it a much greater sense of gravitas and authority than it deserves. tldr fuck music reviews lol.
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  #33  
Old May 24, 2012, 01:08 AM
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Indeed, but Vert1 said we should talk about music more

I think the real tragedy is that if you dislike something, you're just wrong - basically, every single song ever written is good and if you're one of the people that dislikes it, you "just don't get it" or "can't appreciate it". You really don't see people with the opposite opinion of a good review jump in and say "Nuh uh this sucked because of blah blah blah" but when it's a bad review, man, you're lynched, you don't get it, you suck, etc.

By the way, I didn't dismiss the musical content: my very argument is that there isn't really a lot of musical content on this CD. There's some kind of content, but it doesn't strike me as having any sort of... I dunno, soul? I'm not the kind of person that looks at a song and goes "Did the composer do the follow things according to the genre he was composing in? Yes? Then it's automatically a good song." There has to be something enjoyable about the music to me. There was nothing enjoyable about Soukaigi's music to me, because I didn't feel it really did anything to spark any emotion. I was just left so dry at the end of each song, that it was like I hadn't hardly listened to much of anything besides a bunch of "instrumentation". This is why I chose to explain it the way I did, with the "sound" being the simple goal of the music, not so much the "actual music". I've said many times that I don't know Kikuta's mindset and never claimed to, even in my original post.

EDIT: btw, I'll write you all a troll review sometime, and then you'll really know when I'm trolling you. When you take someone's honest opinion of something and call it trolling, it just makes you look like a bad sport. Seriously. You can tell a person how wrong you think they are, and that's fine dude, in fact that's what it's all about. I don't mind if you think I'm wrong, many people said they don't agree with me in this very thread and we had some pretty good discussion about our feelings on the music and there was no arguments or anything like that. But when you call someone a troll, you're simply attacking the credibility of a person's opinion; you're saying that the person's opinion isn't real or valid and is just trying to anger other people. I feel I have the right to post what I feel about any album here at VGMdb, but let me know if I'm wrong about that.

Last edited by Hellacia; May 24, 2012 at 01:26 AM.
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  #34  
Old May 24, 2012, 04:20 AM
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For what it's worth I didn't think you were trolling or being dishonest, but I guess you have a profoundly different value system when it comes to music.
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  #35  
Old May 24, 2012, 10:09 AM
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It's nice to read some content on people's thoughts and defenses on the album. The rpgamer review linked to the album page just wasn't cutting it for me.

Anyhow, I've wrote some more to the thread on 'A Change in Album Discussion' in response to the going ons in this thread. Hopefully we can get away from attacking each other on album pages, so nobody has to read pages of personal rebuttals on what is supposed to be a soundtrack discussion.
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  #36  
Old May 24, 2012, 10:18 AM
Xenofan 29A Xenofan 29A is offline
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If you're looking for another review, this one from SEMO by Chudah's Corner affiliate Ongakusei is pretty good.
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  #37  
Old May 24, 2012, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vert1 View Post
It's nice to read some content on people's thoughts and defenses on the album. The rpgamer review linked to the album page just wasn't cutting it for me.
rpgamer and rpgfan are two different sites. ^_^
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  #38  
Old May 24, 2012, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacia View Post
...Jormungand, who is a VGM artist and a composer, so he knows more about music than I do and therefore must have the correct opinion(?).
Did I really write this, or write something that implied it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitz Lunar View Post
For what it's worth I disagree with Jormungand, I don't think just because it's all grandiose and "different" it's necessarily better or more deserving of praise and merit
I don't remember writing that, either.

Anyway, Xenofan beat me to it--Ongakusei's review is really a great read and summarizes what makes Soukaigi stand out. He's a far better writer than I and very articulately captures the score's strengths (and by extension, Kikuta's).
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  #39  
Old May 24, 2012, 12:35 PM
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Personally I like these kind of "pure" reviews that are plain thoughts much more than the 'synthetic' or cerebral variety from SEMO and whatnot.

But seriously man, "I've probably never heard a bigger piece of shit than this soundtrack"?
Did it make your ears bleed or something? :P
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  #40  
Old May 24, 2012, 12:38 PM
Xenofan 29A Xenofan 29A is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jormungand View Post
Anyway, Xenofan beat me to it--Ongakusei's review is really a great read and summarizes what makes Soukaigi stand out. He's a far better writer than I and very articulately captures the score's strengths (and by extension, Kikuta's).
This particular quote stands out to me as a good description of what makes the best Japanese game music so good:

"In each track, Kikuta's melodies drift through liquid arrangements, always facing the listener with the aspect of Janus. It isn't just the integrity and raw spirit Kikuta puts into his music that sets him apart; it's the ambiguity that pervades his musical voice. He does not depict victories or defeat; there is only a congenital melancholy, shading whatever celebratory expressions find momentary spotlight. It's Kikuta's unique gift to move from one end of the mood spectrum to the other in the span of a phrase as if he were sliding balls across an abacus."

That more fluid scale of emotion is what I find makes composers like Mitsuda and Kikuta so appealing. It's never simply SAD or HAPPY or SCARY without any inflection, but balanced and nuanced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacia
I've probably never heard a bigger piece of shit than this soundtrack.
Click here.

Now you have.
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  #41  
Old May 24, 2012, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jormungand
The content is not only of a much finer substance than most game music albums out there
...
I'm really sorry that you don't know great art when you hear it (it's not for everyone)
is what I was getting at.
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  #42  
Old May 24, 2012, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitz Lunar View Post
is what I was getting at.
Alright. But I don't think Soukaigi is "grandiose", perhaps some the climax of the ending theme could be described that way, but mostly it's not an adjective I would use anywhere else.

Different? Yes. Is that what makes it great and better than others? No--although it's part of it. After all, the very aspect of having more detailed and more spirited musical content means it's going to be different regardless. So, any VGM score that's great, in my opinion, is going to be "different" to some degree. Even if it seems perfectly traditional on the surface.

As for my jab about art, yeah, I could have been nicer about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenofan 29A View Post
This particular quote stands out to me as a good description of what makes the best Japanese game music so good:

"In each track, Kikuta's melodies drift through liquid arrangements, always facing the listener with the aspect of Janus. It isn't just the integrity and raw spirit Kikuta puts into his music that sets him apart; it's the ambiguity that pervades his musical voice. He does not depict victories or defeat; there is only a congenital melancholy, shading whatever celebratory expressions find momentary spotlight. It's Kikuta's unique gift to move from one end of the mood spectrum to the other in the span of a phrase as if he were sliding balls across an abacus."

That more fluid scale of emotion is what I find makes composers like Mitsuda and Kikuta so appealing. It's never simply SAD or HAPPY or SCARY without any inflection, but balanced and nuanced.
Agreed completely. And both of those composers seem to do it so effortlessly. In Mitsuda's case it's especially impactful because of how blessed he has been with his collaborating supervisors. Tetsuya Takahashi and Masato Kato both create scenes in which Mitsuda's music can really reach its full potential.

Kikuta on the other hand hasn't been nearly as fortunate in that regard, and yet he still pours every bit of himself into his work. That's especially apparent in Soukaigi.
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  #43  
Old May 24, 2012, 12:59 PM
Hellacia Hellacia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jormungand View Post
Did I really write this, or write something that implied it?
Are you kidding me? It was the sentence before that statement in that same post of mine, the one Blitz Lunar also just wrote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jormungand View Post
you don't know great art when you hear it
This all but says in exact words "you are wrong about your opinion and just don't know it". And who better than you, the accomplished composer, to school me on it, Jormungand!

Again, I don't mind if you disagree with me, and I respect your opinion about this soundtrack and that you think it's really great. But don't try to tell me I'm "wrong" here, that's not how this works. I'm not going to tell you that you are "wrong" about your opinion, you can't possibly be wrong about it, it's your opinion.

It just reeks of fanboy rage, that's all.

EDIT: Aha, I see you rated this soundtrack a big ol' 5 stars! That's very typical! This is all starting to make sense now.

Last edited by Hellacia; May 24, 2012 at 01:05 PM.
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  #44  
Old May 24, 2012, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacia View Post
Are you kidding me? It was the sentence before that statement in that same post of mine, the one Blitz Lunar also just wrote.

This all but says in exact words "you are wrong about your opinion and just don't know it". And who better than you, the accomplished composer, to school me on it, Jormungand!
Hm, no, that's not what I think. I genuinely do feel sorry that you can't appreciate a truly great piece of art. And I definitely don't go around touting my (admittedly lacking) composition ability. In fact you wouldn't have even known I compose music if there weren't links in my posts that suggested as much. Are you saying that, if said links were absent, you would have still come at me thinking I'm smarter than you because I'm a composer? How would you have known I was?

Quote:
It just reeks of fanboy rage, that's all.
If my reply was merely fanboy rage instead of an opinion, then how do we classify your opening post?
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  #45  
Old May 24, 2012, 01:18 PM
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it's maybe not the right place to ask that, but since one spoke about rating stars etc.
I'd like to see an option to see the whole list of people who rated an album because you only have an average rate without knowing if there are good ratings (5) or bad ratings (1)*

the only way to see a "list" of ratings is from the update page and it's not really a list
(even if I said on the chat long ago that that rating system sucked etc.)

on a personal note, I wanted a possibility to rate 0 (for parasite eve remix)


(*) good/bad in the sense where 5 would be considered as good and 1 as bad for by person who voted
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  #46  
Old May 24, 2012, 01:31 PM
Xenofan 29A Xenofan 29A is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phonograph View Post
on a personal note, I wanted a possibility to rate 0 (for parasite eve remix)
Why bother? 0.5 is the lowest rating possible. Treat it as you would 0. It's all relative, anyway.
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  #47  
Old May 24, 2012, 01:36 PM
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0.5 is too much, it's like saying there is a possibility that there is something "good" and I don't want that
no 0 rating is discriminating albums with "goodness"
any "bad" albums need to be represented in the lowest rating system possible

*revolution*
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  #48  
Old May 24, 2012, 01:37 PM
Xenofan 29A Xenofan 29A is offline
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Let's make the star ratings go up to 11, too, just to prove how great our favorites are!
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  #49  
Old May 24, 2012, 01:38 PM
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or 108 stars
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  #50  
Old May 24, 2012, 01:38 PM
Hellacia Hellacia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jormungand View Post
How would you have known I was?
idk dude how about the big bright green text under your name that says VGM Artist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phonograph View Post
or 108 stars
OF DESTINY

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenofan 29A View Post
Click here.

Now you have.
Well played, this is the 0.5 material right here.
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  #51  
Old May 24, 2012, 01:40 PM
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vgm artist is green for veggie music artist, jormungand plays vegetables
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  #52  
Old May 24, 2012, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacia View Post
idk dude how about the big bright green text under your name that says VGM Artist
That's a link, isn't it? I didn't put it there, I swear!
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  #53  
Old May 24, 2012, 02:54 PM
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Touché, it is a link... but is it really in your posts?

O_O
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  #54  
Old May 31, 2012, 06:41 AM
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On a lighter note, do we have any confirmation on the reading of the lyricists name (Yuki Kitayama)?
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  #55  
Old Jun 8, 2012, 01:48 PM
Xenofan 29A Xenofan 29A is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitz Lunar View Post
Here is one I particularly hate, completely crammed full of assumptions about intent, completely focused on the message it's sending, dismissing the musical content exactly the same way you have (because of presumed "cleverness" - maybe the band simply likes the way it sounds?) and ultimately it's just one idiot's viewpoint, which is fine, yet it's up in print on NME giving it a much greater sense of gravitas and authority than it deserves. tldr fuck music reviews lol.
I know this is a little late, but that's the most hilarious review I've read in a long time. You're right that it expresses absolutely nothing, save to cast vague aspersions on the artist. How someone who writes this badly gets published I have no idea.

And what on earth does "kitschly tasteful" mean? How can something be both kitschy and tasteful?

Oh yeah, and Soukaigi. Great soundtrack, or worst piece of shit ever committed to disc? Answer as of yet unknown.

Last edited by Xenofan 29A; Jun 8, 2012 at 02:25 PM.
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  #56  
Old Jun 8, 2012, 02:05 PM
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shush, don't wake the monster
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  #57  
Old Jun 9, 2012, 02:25 AM
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Quote:
And what on earth does "kitschly tasteful" mean? How can something be both kitschy and tasteful?
I think the idea with kitsch is... yeah supposedly it isn't tasteful, BUT it's seen as "safe", as borrowing rather than innovating, so while it isn't tasteful in premise and design, it can still make for easy listening, so maybe that's what he meant by tasteful. I think it's a western thing honestly, we're really hung up on originality here, for whatever reason. It certainly isn't my chosen goddess, and the Japanese don't seem to care either, in fact imitation is seen (properly IMO) as flattery over there. Hah, I expect most of my favourite music could be called kitsch, hodgepodge, fusion... one of my favourite quotes, "Those who do not want to imitate anything, produce nothing." - guess who said it? Salvador Dali, a shockingly original and influential artist.
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  #58  
Old Jun 9, 2012, 09:05 AM
Xenofan 29A Xenofan 29A is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitz Lunar View Post
I think the idea with kitsch is... yeah supposedly it isn't tasteful, BUT it's seen as "safe", as borrowing rather than innovating, so while it isn't tasteful in premise and design, it can still make for easy listening, so maybe that's what he meant by tasteful. I think it's a western thing honestly, we're really hung up on originality here, for whatever reason. It certainly isn't my chosen goddess, and the Japanese don't seem to care either, in fact imitation is seen (properly IMO) as flattery over there. Hah, I expect most of my favourite music could be called kitsch, hodgepodge, fusion... one of my favourite quotes, "Those who do not want to imitate anything, produce nothing." - guess who said it? Salvador Dali, a shockingly original and influential artist.
When I think of kitsch, I think of all those trinkets people use to fill their homes, or Thomas Kinkade. Something that is an inferior copy of other things, and also lacks taste.

You're right in recognizing the Japanese penchant for kitsch, though. They're also heavily into melodrama, and all of the prime time programming I've seen plays up stereotypical emotions. This is not necessarily meant as a criticism. I think that the trend towards reality programming in the US is far worse...

Taste is overrated sometimes. Sometimes it takes someone going a little beyond to make something more effective.
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  #59  
Old Jan 12, 2016, 11:38 AM
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so Quake's lyrics are in Thai and Absolute Lady's in Malay
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  #60  
Old Jan 12, 2016, 11:55 AM
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so Quake's lyrics are in Thai and Absolute Lady's in Malay
Really? That's ... that's kind of awesome. I wish they'd have printed the lyrics in the book.

I know some Thai speakers that might be able to listen through Quake and transcribe the lyrics. I don't know anyone who speaks Malay.
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