A Change in Album Discussion Threads

[Vert1]

I'd like it if people posted their thoughts on albums more instead of technical composer details. Some days I feel like I'm the only person who is posting about little enjoyable things in the music or overall album impressions on album pages. Aren't people interested in talking about music?

[dissident93]

Oh sure. I just think that since this is a database and not simply a music forum, we tend to be more technical with the info.

Or something like that. xD

[Cedille]

With the death or decline of other VGM forums over the past years, I'd like people to use VGMdb as a generic community. Or, the idea of each site's own forum might be already getting old and people in general nowadays prefer to use Twitter or facebook instead.

[Blitz Lunar]

I'm totally down for talking about albums in the album threads. I always thought it was a faux pas, thinking not many people would be interested.

[Hellacia]

I've posted my thoughts on albums before. The rate at which I do it is considerably less than the rate at which I discuss factual details, but I still pop in with my opinion from time to time. I did so with Creid, The Black Mages, Atelier Iris, and Dungeon Defenders... and perhaps one or two others. The reason I don't do it often is because I think that the person who really gets anything out of posting his opinion is the person that's posting it.

Maybe that's an ironic statement though And that's not to say that I think posting about music here is stupid or annoying, I wouldn't find it out of place at all.

[Secret Squirrel]

At one point we were going to have a separate place to post reviews. I'm not sure if that would help address this question though, since people probably would feel less comfortable posting a sentence about a track in a thread full of detailed reviews.

Talking about music is always welcome in the album discussion threads, so I hope we have never discouraged anyone.

[Fearin]

I think one of the main portions as Hellacia kind of mentioned is that listening to music is very subjective, so the posting about it is just your own experience and in a sense listening to yourself talk.

The main use about details is so that this database can be as accurate as possible.

I think a review section might be nice to allow for people to have their opinions expressed and keep the data and opinions from clogging each other up. Doubtful it would keep people from expressing what they think after seeing long reviews, might start getting the +1 or some emoticon [d('G')b] to express an agreement with a review if they think it said what they wanted, or might add something afterwards also.

[LiquidAcid]

Am I the only one who thinks it's a bit strange that someone wants to dictate what to discuss in the threads and what not?

At least I have close to zero interest in discussing how your music sounds when played reversed:
Reference

I can only quote SS here, and highlighting the second part of the sentence:

Talking about music is always welcome in the album discussion threads, so I hope we have never discouraged anyone.

And yes, I don't think this was ever discouraged.

[Vert1]

Every now and then you see in music discussions or reviews (see: discogs) about how a record sounds better played at a different speed (33 1/3 versus 45) or pitched up so that it sounds more pleasurable to the user. So, I started a thread on slowing down vgm. Another aspect of altering music you mentioned that I posted about was listening to music played in reverse. I like finding songs/tracks that sound interesting or better played in reverse as it creates a new sound file for me to enjoy. A lot of tracks played backwards I've found sound like crap, so I only post ones that I like and think are worth someone's time to listen to.

As far as the subjectivity issue, the whole point of discussion is to share ideas with people who probably are of different opinions and experiences. You're not trying to convince people they are wrong for not liking FF7 ost. (At least that's not really helpful.) An explanation of why you don't like something beyond a "I don't like it" and perhaps even recommending things you like instead will only strengthens community dialogue.

Before you pursue a line of reasoning you need to ask yourself "Why am I pursuing this line of reasoning? What do I hope to gain from it?

[LiquidAcid]

Originally Posted by Vert1

A lot of tracks played backwards I've found sound like crap, so I only post ones that I like and think are worth someone's time to listen to.

I have a problem with that. Because you're effectively deciding here what is worth my time. My opinion on this "backward listening" approach is that it's a complete waste of time. It's _not_ worth my time. It's not even worth replying to the topic. That's my opinion, so you don't have to share it.

However what you now do is creating this thread, trying to force some discussion. At least I think there's plenty of discussion going round in the forums. Probably it's just that these discussions don't interest _you_. It's like for me with the "backward listening" stuff.

Originally Posted by Vert1

As far as the subjectivity issue, the whole point of discussion is to share ideas with people who probably are of different opinions and experiences.

Maybe people can just be happy with their music, without having to drop something into a discussion board?

A german cabaret artist once said (bad translation by me):

Originally Posted by Dieter Nuhr

The people have misunderstood this thing about democracy. You can have an opinion on everything. But you don't have to... So if you don't have a clue, you should just shut the fuck up.

Sometimes less is more, so to speak

Originally Posted by Vert1

You're not trying to convince people they are wrong for not liking FF7 ost. At least that's not really helpful. You can explain why you don't like it beyond a "I don't like it" and perhaps even recommend things you like instead.

The problem is see here, is that you're the one who actually wants something. You want people to write down their thoughts on the music, so that you can read/reply/whatever to them. But that's now how things work. You can't just drop this "rant" here (while implying by the last sentence (Aren't people interested in talking about music?) that people are not interested) and wait for something to happen. You have to initiate the discussion yourself.

[Vert1]

Okay. I made a mistake on assuming I can gauge whether people would be interested in something I like that share a hobby (collecting and/or listening to vgm). Shouldn't have said that as that's not what I was aiming at. What I was aiming at: I post those topics because they interest and have value to me and I have hopes of someone else with that same interest having a discussion with me on that topic. If someone doesn't want to post about it, they don't.

I have initiated discussions and posted on my impressions of albums or my enjoyment of select tracks here. I am just pointing out an observation in hopes to stir up more people to express their opinions on albums in detail beyond a simple review score on the side of the album page. Starting this thread has cleared up things for at least one user here (Blitz Lunar), so that's something.

[LiquidAcid]

Originally Posted by Vert1

Okay. I made a mistake on assuming I can gauge whether people would be interested in something I like that share a hobby (collecting and/or listening to vgm). Shouldn't have said that as that's not what I was aiming at. What I was aiming at: I post those topics because they interest and have value to me and I have hopes of someone else with that same interest having a discussion with me on that topic. If someone doesn't want to post about it, they don't.

I can agree with that.

Originally Posted by Vert1

I have initiated discussions and posted on my impressions of albums or my enjoyment of select tracks here. I am just pointing out an observation in hopes to stir up more people to express their opinions on albums in detail beyond a simple review score on the side of the album page. Starting this thread has cleared up things for at least one user here (Blitz Lunar), so that's something.

OK, but it still leaves a bad aftertaste for me. Good and in-depth discussions arise because there is a need (and will) on both sides to discuss the matter. The proposition in the entry post is more like locking some people up in a room with the task "discuss XYZ". If anything this going to create an awkward situation with little to no benefit.

Honestly I don't see how Blitz Lunar got the impression that talking about the music was a faux pas.

@BL: Care to explain? I really am curious where you got the impression.

[Hellacia]

And dancey calls me an argumentative asshole

[Datschge]

I think the core issue is that every album, artist etc. gets exactly one topic (which is even flat instead of a threaded format). So whatever the first post manages to focus on sets the tone for the rest of the topic as people will feel uncomfortable going "off topic". Only solution I see for that is allowing more than one topic to be linked to an album, artist etc., essentially each having an own subforum. Not sure how feasible that is.

[Yotsuya]

As being relatively new to VGM collecting, this site is invaluable, and the occasional feedback of an album in the album thread is helpful in determining potential purchases. I also reference SEMO and soundtrack central, even Chudah's corner for more comprehensive reviews as well as making new discoveries.

However I would like to agree with Vert1 that the lack of music discussion stands out a little. Sure, taste is totally subjective, also maybe people are a little tired of repetitive discussions 10 years down the line.

On the other hand, this site and the mentality behind it make it what it is, the ass-kickingest VGM database known to man.

[Gigablah]

Would you guys be interested in some sort of mechanism to separate technical vs. music discussions? Different threads, post filtering, or something? Maybe even promote well written posts to the album page itself?

[DragoonEnRegalia]

Originally Posted by Gigablah

Would you guys be interested in some sort of mechanism to separate technical vs. music discussions? Different threads, post filtering, or something? Maybe even promote well written posts to the album page itself?

I'd like to see some like this be implemented. It may be cumbersome and overly-organized, but I want to see more people making valid insights into their favorite albums and game music, just like the many, many game music analysts on SEMO and OSV and other places. There's no reason why those who're truly passionate about music and how it relates to a game context can't discuss favorites and what-not.

[TerraEpon]

Basically,the fact is you can't get people to do what they don't want. Even making album threads "dedicated" to musical discussion over the technical details, it won't suddenly bring up more posts. I've similar such attempt, it works for a bit but mostly fails.
People will post what they want, or they won't.

[Hellacia]

I somewhat agree with that. For the most part, if someone really wants to post what they think about something, then they will, and if they don't want to, then they won't. Agreed, 100%. In Vert's defense I don't think he was trying to tell people what to post, but just trying to incite interest in talking about the music itself by sharing his interest in doing so.

But going hand-in-hand with what Datschge said, I think that because the forums on this website are primarily used to discuss factual details about soundtracks, people may not feel comfortable posting their thoughts in the same threads that facilitate those factual discussions. So if there's a section people can go specifically to post their thoughts, they might do so because they know that posting their opinion has been warranted and they'll take comfort in the security that they won't post their opinion in a thread only to have it overtaken by factual discussions; they may feel their opinions are validated. It still might not generate a huge amount of posts, but I'm not sure that's the only important part of creating a new section for it. Maybe it's as Blitz Lunar said, and that one reason people haven't posted their thoughts on music is because they didn't think it was acceptable, so to speak. Or, maybe we'll create a section that pretty much won't get used

Originally Posted by Gigablah

Would you guys be interested in some sort of mechanism to separate technical vs. music discussions? Different threads, post filtering, or something? Maybe even promote well written posts to the album page itself?

Could you possibly do a sub-forum thing, like we have for album/product discussions? Or, would it deserve its own forum altogether? I'm just thinking in terms of what we do now, where we can be checking out a soundtrack's page and decide "Hey, I want to post my thoughts on this", and bam, we can do it from right there. That's pretty nice.

[Zethe]

I for one always embrace other people's opinions about music, what their favorites are, what they like. it can make people aware of stuff that they maybe like as well (it can certainly do that for me). Damn, PerfectZer0 and Nick G made me buy Shutokou Battle, which after listening is now one of my favorite VGM albums. Without their posted opinion it'd probably still be unknown to me. This is not the only case.

[jdkluv]

Originally Posted by Zethe

I for one always embrace other people's opinions about music, what their favorites are, what they like. it can make people aware of stuff that they maybe like as well (it can certainly do that for me). Damn, PerfectZer0 and Nick G made me buy Shutokou Battle, which after listening is now one of my favorite VGM albums. Without their posted opinion it'd probably still be unknown to me. This is not the only case.

I've also experienced that before - when someone recommends something that you then really really enjoy. I often wonder if I would've enjoyed it AS MUCH if there was a lack of positive social acknowledgment about that thing. It's almost like the words of recommendation exert some sort of magnifying effect which, since we're all social primates, often does affect our perceptions (but I can only speak for myself - so maybe I shouldn't generalise).

[Yotsuya]

Originally Posted by DragoonEnRegalia

I'd like to see some like this be implemented. It may be cumbersome and overly-organized, but I want to see more people making valid insights into their favorite albums and game music, just like the many, many game music analysts on SEMO and OSV and other places. There's no reason why those who're truly passionate about music and how it relates to a game context can't discuss favorites and what-not.

The review links serve this function to some extent, though relatively few albums feature review links. I think there are a lot of albums with reviews on SEMO in particular (who have a very extensive review database) that aren't linked up here. I don't know if this is intentional or not, but it would be convenient if they were linked.

Also if there was the option for editors to post reviews it could be a nice addition. A lot of times when I look at an album page I wonder what distinguishes the particular album from what are often multiple iterations of the same game soundtrack. I check the discussion thread which may or may not shed light on it. This is one aspect where a review could say, 'if you are interested, this is the one to get;' or, 'this is an inferior release, you should get a different one.' NiGHTs perfect dreams soundtrack comes to mind, or Gyakuten Saiban which have several versions.

And that is just one aspect that would be helpful, but general reviews would be cool. It is venturing into the realm of opinion which is maybe not what the site is about though. Just a thought.

[Blitz Lunar]

Originally Posted by LiquidAcid

Honestly I don't see how Blitz Lunar got the impression that talking about the music was a faux pas.

@BL: Care to explain? I really am curious where you got the impression.

Simply because people rarely do it. The album threads are usually about album submission info. For a long time I assumed that talking about the music itself was a distraction/"not the point".

[DragoonEnRegalia]

Originally Posted by Yotsuya

The review links serve this function to some extent, though relatively few albums feature review links. I think there are a lot of albums with reviews on SEMO in particular (who have a very extensive review database) that aren't linked up here. I don't know if this is intentional or not, but it would be convenient if they were linked.

Also if there was the option for editors to post reviews it could be a nice addition. A lot of times when I look at an album page I wonder what distinguishes the particular album from what are often multiple iterations of the same game soundtrack. I check the discussion thread which may or may not shed light on it. This is one aspect where a review could say, 'if you are interested, this is the one to get;' or, 'this is an inferior release, you should get a different one.' NiGHTs perfect dreams soundtrack comes to mind, or Gyakuten Saiban which have several versions.

And that is just one aspect that would be helpful, but general reviews would be cool. It is venturing into the realm of opinion which is maybe not what the site is about though. Just a thought.

There are only so many published reviews for a given album, and having forum comment sections for people's opinions could make it easier to decide on whether or not to acquire the album. Now there's a thought.

[Fearin]

Maybe attach the reviews into that forum section on a side bar. That way you can reference or read them for people who are agreeing/arguing.

[thedreamtraveler]

Originally Posted by Gigablah

Would you guys be interested in some sort of mechanism to separate technical vs. music discussions? Different threads, post filtering, or something? Maybe even promote well written posts to the album page itself?

Great question! I think that this would be a great additional feature to the database! I love music, being a fan of so many different genres, with VGM being a top favorite. It's fun learning/knowing the facts of a soundtrack's release like who composed it, when it was composed, how long the tracks are, etc. This website, ever since I discovered it, has been an extremely valuable tool for me. There simply is no place on the net quite like it. As a side note, I personally love talking about this stuff, from technical to general topics. I find VGM soundtracks very cool and unique to talk about.

I have actually bought a soundtrack because someone said a particular soundtrack or track off of an album was good. Even if I didn't have, play, or like the game it went to. I have soundtracks in my collection that I bought for numerous reasons, I played/didn't play the game, a certain composer, certain era, or in this case some one told me/said something was good. I am fine with something like this being incorporated into the database!

[Vert1]

What's nice about negative reviews and trolling* is that it makes people who like the object of derision speak up. Obviously no one likes to have one of their favorite albums or musicians called "shit". This happens on discogs forums a lot where someone posts about "not getting something". People then provide historical background information to the album (comparing it to what was released at the time). Usually it ends up in recommendations to check out another track by the same or a different artist that might better suit the persons taste or a simple "it's not for you" statement. At worst, it ends in people hating each other.

On the latter, there is nothing easier to do than attack someone's credibility instead of focusing on attacking what was written. (Sometimes it is warranted though.) Sometimes it takes a little drama is necessary in getting useful information out of people.

As a community we should try to curb personal attacks so nobody has to read pages of personal rebuttals on what is supposed to be a soundtrack discussion. These personal attacks will generally always be unresolved and can be carried on to other album discussions whereupon we will have to read the same personal attacks and rebuttals. Maybe it is a necessary symptom of music discussion (kept at a minimal) but it's really not that important and leaves people unnecessarily frustrated. So I'd recommend people not focus their energy on it.


* Not accusing anyone here of doing this.

[layzee]

In case no-one noticed, I have invited people's opinions on various Yoshitaka Hirota works (Shadow Hearts etc): http://vgmdb.net/forums/showthread.php?p=40005

Feel free to assert that all or part of his discography are "shit", provided you can explain and justify your opinion reasonably well and preferably, without any further profanity apart from the initial aforementioned "shit".

If I don't see any replies, then I officially confirm myself as being the no.1 Yoshitaka Hirota fan on vgmdb (despite not having listened to even half of his works due to obscurity).

[DragoonEnRegalia]

You still seem like enough of a fan to qualify for that, actually. But, if we're going by the rulebook here, I think you've lost out!

If this thread is going to revolutionize how the community spends its time on the VGMdb forums, the best thing we can try to do is repeat what the Hirota thread just showed and start interesting discussions in other artist talkbalk pages. If we want to keep those pages clean, though, then perhaps another solution, like a separate commentary thread in another forum, would be better.

[ScHlAuChi]

Why not add a "user-reviews" button that links to a separate subforum/thread for each album?