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  #1  
Old Mar 6, 2012, 09:19 PM
Hellacia Hellacia is offline
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Can somebody help me to understand JASRAC? Page 6 of this soundtrack's booklet has JASRAC 出0802920-801 at the top, but I've searched JASRAC every which way using (what I think is) their search form and can only come up with extremely limited and ultimately useless information. I've seen many instances here at VGMdb where people retrieved composer breakdowns from JASRAC, so if this soundtrack has a listing in JASRAC I'd like to be able to query it.
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  #2  
Old Mar 6, 2012, 09:34 PM
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From the search page, paste "破天荒遊戯" into the title field (Second input box labeled "作品タイトル"). You'll get two pages worth of results. Unfortunately, you have to click every single entry and then compare the track titles to the titles on the album. The second example links to Razeru no Teema, which has a bunch of variations. It labels "Razeruno Teema" as the primary song, and 5 different label variations (not necessarily from this album). It gives you the composer as 大山 曜 for that particular track.

I've not figured out an easier way to do that. I imagine JASRAC is organized as a database of tracks which would make rights management easier. Album probably is not as important to them as the individual track itself. Although I could just be completely retarded at searching.

Actually I think the more reliable way is to paste the actual track title into the same field and search for it. Sometimes the work isn't related to the track (notice how all the results come back as "破天荒遊戯より" when you search for "破天荒遊戯", I guess they link the album to the tracks that way somehow. But you can search for the individual tracks, like typing "Heartbreaking Romance" it will return one result.

Last edited by dancey; Mar 6, 2012 at 09:41 PM.
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  #3  
Old Mar 7, 2012, 12:46 AM
Hellacia Hellacia is offline
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Oh, so there just isn't a good way :< Well, thanks, I'll do this later.
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  #4  
Old Mar 30, 2012, 12:40 PM
Hellacia Hellacia is offline
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Is the current way this romaji tracklist was changed considered the correct way? As in, should we change katakana like "razeru" (a character's name, in this instance) to "rahzel"? I got the romaji from JASRAC and followed the format I saw in the FFX soundtrack's romaji tracklist, but I realize that's a really old tracklist and obviously could need some updating. I have seen the "capitalize katakana words" format before, but that's not saying it's the "right" way to do it.

Of course there's a part of me thinks that stuff like razeru is kind of ridiculous, but I really think that a romaji tracklist should read like a romaji tracklist, and we should save translating stuff for English tracklists. Changing razeru to rahzel is essentially a translation in that you have taken the original Japanese word, ラゼル, and changed it to a different word to suit a different audience. And then there's the technical point you can make about it, that "rahzel" is actually not romaji at all, because the letter 'L' doesn't even exist when writing Japanese words, so these words aren't romaji words.

Anyway, I'd appreciate some people's thoughts on this.

Last edited by Hellacia; Mar 30, 2012 at 12:55 PM.
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  #5  
Old Mar 30, 2012, 01:08 PM
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you don't know we don't use "wiki" romanizations here?
as far as I know, Rahzel is sort of official spelling
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  #6  
Old Mar 30, 2012, 01:31 PM
Hellacia Hellacia is offline
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No, I don't know... because I haven't seen it said anywhere (not to say it wasn't said somewhere, but I haven't seen where to my memory). I think the only submission guideline thread we don't have is tracklists / track titles.

I just used Rahzel as an example, not to pick it out specifically. You're right, if we're putting translations into romaji tracklists than Rahzel is the correct spelling.
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  #7  
Old Mar 30, 2012, 02:02 PM
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The way I see, romaji tracklists are representations of JP pronounciations. But since katakana names and loanwords are (typically) JP aproximations to other languages' pronounciations, I'd think the actual word would make more sense to a western user.

(I mean "ORIJINARU" over "original" would be more confusing, no?)
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Old Mar 30, 2012, 03:31 PM
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I've seen a lot of loanword mangling in JASRAC, so I suspect they automatically generate romaji from titles. Try searching for something like "oopuningu" and checking out the results.

I agree with the above post by Dag.
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  #9  
Old Mar 30, 2012, 04:42 PM
Hellacia Hellacia is offline
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They are representations of Japanese pronunciations, which is why I feel they should remain as such. Changing the pronunciation of a name in a tracklist made to represent the name's pronunciation to something another country thinks the name is makes very little sense to me. I'm not under the impression that romaji tracklists are intended for any sort of audience that is looking for anything besides pronunciations, is going to be confused by pronunciations, or wants a "nice and clean" translated tracklist.

Plus, these names can pop up in different forms in different places. When I see stuff like "Rahzel" in a romaji tracklist, I have to wonder what source this is coming from, especially when we're dealing with media like this, an anime: is it a fan translation? Did *most people* just figure this to be "rahzel", when it could just as easily be "razel"? (Again, not the case here, but in many anime or games which weren't released outside Japan, it is.)

Furthermore, some tracklists include blatant romaji conversions which we aren't going to fix. Theme of Adoru? Seriously? Sure it's in plain English, so we shouldn't change it, and if we wanted an English tracklist, we should write Theme of Adol, if we were translating from アドル. But we don't want an English tracklist in this case, we want a romaji one. There's also ActRaiser, which includes its own romaji tracklist. Do we override theirs? Needlessly include a second one?

Aah, anyway, I'm probably in the minority again, I just don't see the good in including non-romaji in a romaji tracklist, however ridiculous it may seem. If ridiculousness is a reason to change things, then we'll start changing spelling errors and typos in booklet tracklists next because they're ridiculous. It's the nature of romaji to be slightly ridiculous, I think.
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  #10  
Old Mar 31, 2012, 03:26 AM
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Well, that "strict" romaji approach would make for some curious tracklists. Like テーマ is *not* "theme" but "thema" (from German)... or rather "Teema" (Tēma for the hardcore macron lovers).

I'd think people want romaji tracklists just for JP sounding-names in familiar characters (jugding by the shoddy quality of romaji tracklists in general...), but then again I don't use them so dunno.
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  #11  
Old Mar 31, 2012, 07:03 PM
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If the katakana word is derived from a real word (e.g. サウンドトラック, バイト), whether that real word is from English, German, or French (those 3 seem to be pretty common), then to translate it, it's a reasonably simple affair of just working out what the original word was.

Note however that there are instances where the Japanese meaning of the katakana word (or how the Japanese perceive the word) can be different to how the original meaning of the word (or how natives of that original language view the word). Probably the most common example is マンション. When a non-Japanese persons hears the word, he/she would probably envision some sort of expensive mansion with 50 bedrooms. A Japanese person however would think of an above-average apartment. So while one might correctly identify the above katakana word as "mansion", the actual intended meaning might be lost or redirected. I don't know if this case has happened in VGM tracklist translating before but I'm just saying.

As for the topic of katakana names, based on what I've seen, when it comes to katakana and character names that have nothing to do with real-life non-Japanese names (e.g. マイケル for Michael), then it's definitely not a science in comparison, or at least it doesn't seem that way. Sure, given any word, when going from katakana to roman letters or roman letters to katakana, there are some established transcription rules (see pg 615-625, "Katakana Word Transcription Rules", A Dictionary of Intermediate Japanese Grammar). However, these rules seem to fly out the window when it comes to non-foreign/Japanese names (i.e. made up) and to a lesser extent, non-made up ones, at least based on my experiences. I'd be thumbing through some random game instruction manual and while on the character introduction/profile pages, I would cover up the English/Romaji and try to work out what the Katakana name would look like in English. Then I would look at the actual Romaji and it would be sometimes completely different to what I expected it to be and I would be left wondering, "so do these (transcription) rules need to be followed or what?". I can't think of any examples right now but do the same experiment I did on the character profile pages of anything in any media and you would probably come to the same conclusion.

When translators translate these sort of names (like ラゼル, the example in this thread), the way I see it is it's not actually about whether the translation of the name is right or wrong (though some translations would claim it is the "correct" way), but more about what "looks good", which is subjective.

So I would argue that Rahzel is just as "right" as Razel just as much as Rrazel, Razell, Rhazel, Razhel, ad infinitum. Likewise, Aerith (from FFVII) is just as "right" as Aeris as much as Earith, Earis, Eahryth, etc... I can think of two factors that can lend weight for one name being more "right" than the other:

1) Original Japanese pronunciation of the original name. It doesn't matter if it is possible to convert the katakana name 50 ways (and with it, 50 ways to pronounce it depending on your language and your regional accent in your country). The Japanese all say the same thing: ra-ze-ru. The more you move away from pronouning that when looking at the English name, the worse I would say. Then again, it's all subjective. Plenty of people in real life with real names have names that don't look the way they are pronounced, so why not fictional ones?

2) Official English transcription by the game/anime/etc developers. As in the case when Square-Enix "decided" (it's always been Aerith) to stick with "Aerith", the useless Aeris/Aerith debate pretty much ceased. This is a more objective method. They're the game developers or writers so they can name their characters however they want, even if looks bad, illogical, complicated, unconventional, and/or strange.

For Japanese games that do not have official romaji transcriptions of the character names (or even those which does like Adol/Adoru from the Ys series), I can only suggest a careful balancing of "general katakana transcription rules", "sticking to the original non-changing Japanese pronuciation" and "looks good".

Edit: As for the romaji tracklists, I dunno, do whatever.

Last edited by layzee; Mar 31, 2012 at 07:12 PM.
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  #12  
Old Apr 3, 2012, 09:37 PM
Hellacia Hellacia is offline
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Gah, this just makes me sad. I'm trying to get over it. But we are putting English in a romaji tracklist, period, that is what we are doing. Rahzel is not romaji, it is English. An English tracklist satisfies the want to have her English name in a tracklist and that's what it is there for. If a character's name were spelled out in kanji in a Japanese tracklist, we wouldn't change the kanji in the Japanese tracklist to a romaji reading just because that's basically what it equals and it's easier for us to read. Yet that's literally what we're doing in the romaji tracklists: changing the romaji to English because it "looks nicer" and we think that romaji in a romaji tracklist "looks weird" (go figure that one). Guys, this is a ROMAJI tracklist! Sounding the character out phonetically, whether it's a kanji, kana, or whatever else, is ROMAJI. That's what romaji is. Rahzel is not romaji. There's no basis of putting English forms of ANY word written in Japanese characters in a romaji tracklist because they just don't belong. It's a translation. I don't know where this notion that razeru looks "weird" or "lame" because it's not, ラゼル is razeru just like 闇 is yami, 炎 is homura and の is no. In fact, the kana are even more absolute because 炎 can also be honoo and en. ラ is ra. ゼ is ze. ル is ru. Period.

I don't understand why we want to put non-romaji in a romaji tracklist, it's worse than calling any Garou Densetsu album "Fatal Fury" because it doesn't even aid anybody in any way, at least labeling an album like that would help somebody find it. I don't know what group of people is serviced by seeing English in a romaji tracklist. I don't know who could possibly be coming to a romaji tracklist to see non-pronunciations of Japanese words, instead hoping to find what is basically an English writing of someone's name. When I see that I think "Yeah, but wtf was the actual pronunciation of this name" because I may not agree with the spelling "Rahzel" if it's a fan translation or blah blah blah. Put it in the English tracklist so we can argue about it there. But the romaji tracklist is so clear-cut and dry, and there need not be any argument about whether it's Rahzel or Razel because the romaji of ラゼル is razeru.

I don't mean to personally attack anyone, I know that's just how we've done things, but it's seriously just wrong and baseless, other than "well it looks weird." It's romaji, it'll look weird, that's fine. That's why you make the ENGLISH tracklist nice and pretty with the ENGLISH names. I know romaji tracklists are stupid and shitty and no one adds them because no one uses them... but I CAAAAARE. I care that the few romaji tracklists we have make sense in the very basic way a romaji tracklist should make sense, and that is to contain romaji. Sure, like always, we won't change a name if it's in English already. If the original tracklist says Heartbreaking Romance, don't purposely change it to how romaji would sound it out in the romaji tracklist. But that is what is going to distinguish tracks already in English from tracks originally in katakana; the text in English will be in English and the text in Japanese will be in romaji.

(By the way, all my "Rahzel vs. Razel" arguments are given for example, I know that Rahzel is basically an official writing of her name in English. It's to show a point, there isn't always an official English name.)

EDIT: Just want to add that Rahzel no Theme makes zero sense whatsoever because now what we are seeing is actually all English words. So we're basically saying "Rahzel has no theme" in terribly broken English. This makes no sense technically or logically. But if I saw RAZERU no TEEMA it would be pretty obviously what I'm looking at: a romaji tracklist, with RAZERU and TEEMA being kana words and "no" being a kanji word.

Last edited by Hellacia; Apr 3, 2012 at 09:55 PM.
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  #13  
Old Apr 3, 2012, 11:09 PM
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it's amazing you speak about romaji tracklist because, sorry to break your dreams, but TEEMA isn't romaji
I dare you to find any word processor that can write TEEMA(テエマ) into テーマ

(if you don't agree with the romaji system of vgmdb, I suggest you to quit and create your own site)

if you are that "angry", that's because your precious romanization has been changed ;p
you make the same ugly romanization as RomanticScent, you could simply stop romaji and let other people do it
it'd be simpler (and avoid me to correct when people badly romanize -I saw worse if it can reassure you)

Last edited by Phonograph; Apr 4, 2012 at 05:41 AM.
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  #14  
Old Apr 4, 2012, 03:17 AM
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This may go into a somwhat philosophical question, as to why we romanize stuff. I for one guess that's because raw characters from a foreign language are just too alien us (for me, it's like looking something like "موسيقى لعبة فيديو"), so we have to render them in a more familiar form. I see why feeling like "weird" matters here, since it may even catch the the essence of romanization. By this argument, we don't need to romanize stuff that was to begin with borrowed from the Roman word. This is just my two cents, though.
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  #15  
Old Apr 4, 2012, 04:39 AM
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Good to see hellacia isn't just an argumentative, stubborn asshole with my posts and it's with everyone. /validation
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  #16  
Old Apr 4, 2012, 07:57 AM
Hellacia Hellacia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phonograph View Post
because, sorry to break your dreams, but TEEMA isn't romaji
ー elongates a vowel though... or how would we write that? Dag wrote it is teema... everyone writes it as teema. Or is there a more proper way to write it?

Anyway, that I botched a single reading doesn't disprove anything about my point, my point remains the same. Oh, also, you're getting way too offended by this, telling me to start my own site because I don't like the way we do romaji here...? As if we can't discuss the ways we do things here? I'm trying to shed some new light on how we do things, wouldn't be the first time, we have whole threads dedicated to this kind of thing. You don't tell someone to go start their own site just because they're discussing the way we do something on this site.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dancey View Post
Good to see hellacia isn't just an argumentative, stubborn asshole with my posts and it's with everyone. /validation
Hey dude, Hellacia is a proper name. Capitalize it.

EDIT: Sorry, Cedille, missed your post somehow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedille View Post
This may go into a somwhat philosophical question, as to why we romanize stuff.
Perhaps this is what I'm missing? Why do we romanize it? For somebody that doesn't understand 闇, seeing "yami" in its place will not help them, because they just don't know what it means. So, yami is only slightly more familiar than 闇. So yeah, we do we romanize stuff? I always thought it was to aid in the breakdown of a string of Japanese characters.

Last edited by Hellacia; Apr 4, 2012 at 08:42 AM.
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  #17  
Old Apr 4, 2012, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacia View Post
ー elongates a vowel though... or how would we write that? Dag wrote it is teema... everyone writes it as teema. Or is there a more proper way to write it?

...
oh orly... sorry but romanization of ー isn't that simple
after an e, you can have an i
after an o, you can have an u
without speaking of the "a" case that can have "ar", "er" or "or" (if you don't wikipediaze it -> Armor)

it's not because everybody writes it as TEEMA that it's necessarily correct
you only see what you want to see
I said with a word processor, TEEMA doesn't make テーマ but テエマ

why do I mention a word processor?
it's simple, normally when you romanize a word, you should be able to rewrite it in jap from the romanization
with TEEMA, it's not possible
that writing is incorrect but used for convenience, that's all
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Old Apr 4, 2012, 05:36 PM
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So then the real correct way would perhaps be to just write tēma? That's interesting, I never thought of that. Well, I suppose that's why we romanize things with macrons, because we'd have to guess too much at what the elongated vowel could be and it's better to just use the macron? Thanks for the info.
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  #19  
Old Apr 5, 2012, 02:12 AM
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Maybe we should start by redefining "how we want to romanize": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization
So I guess Hellacia wants a phonetic way, that's ok. Not sure why he (she?) has to be called names.
But romaji (WAIT! I must mean rōmaji) is just "romanization of Japanese" --there isn't one 'single' way to do it.
ラゼル may be razeru 1:1 (or... RAZERU?), yet ローマ字 could be "rōmaji" in Hepburn, "rômazi" in Kunrei, etc. (I'd guess in vgmdb we mostly use this)

Also word processors, really? lol. Teema is an aproximation of the _pronounciation_ of テーマ, as are tehma/tēma/whatever your favorite romanization system writes (= is romaji).
If you were to say "teema is incorrect in strict Hepburn", then sure. Or "macrons represent 'ー' better than double vocals", very true.
But "you should be able to rewrite it in jap from the romanization"? wat.

Macrons aren't perfect. "Obāsan" could be taken as おばーさん rather than おばあさん, if one doesn't know (typically "ー" is used with katakana, so those words may be written in CAPS to differentiate, TĒMA and obāsan, but I don't think this is a rule in any romanization system).
Honō (炎) could be taken ("rewritten from romanization"?) as ほのお or ほのう, yet honoo makes it clearer. This all isn't so simple.

Last edited by Dag; Apr 5, 2012 at 02:16 AM.
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  #20  
Old Apr 5, 2012, 03:48 AM
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personally I use a revised version of hepburn (revised by me ;p)
because some stuff in hepburn doesn't please me (for example, I prefer "wo", with "wa" it's cuter)
and I use original writing of loanwords (because... huh... cuter)
-> with the exception of some words like theme (mostly used in official non-jap tracklist), even if I saw thema being used
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Old Apr 5, 2012, 08:54 AM
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This is really pretty moot if we're not going to romanize kana. Just saying.
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  #22  
Old Apr 5, 2012, 04:12 PM
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The current romanization rules were developed because we didn't want to see stuff like "Doragon Booru Zetto Baasuto Rimitto Orizinaru Saundotorakku" in the album titles (and this is a real edit I rejected some time ago). That just looks awful, and it doesn't really gain us anything since you can just read the kana if you really want to see the nuances of Japanese spelling.

If we really want to be official about things, we should pick the most accepted standard for Romanization, perhaps one of the recent Hepburn incarnations, and follow it. I'm not convinced we really want to be official. Romaji tracklists are really an afterthought that serves a more limited market. I think it's better to put our effort into making sure we have good quality Original and Translated tracklists, rather than enforcing a standard on the Romaji tracklists. I don't usually police the romaji tracklists very tightly anyway, as long as they look decent and are following some standard.
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  #23  
Old Apr 5, 2012, 04:36 PM
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It does look awful, I certainly wouldn't disagree with that. I would just say it's the nature of romaji to look... well, awful... just like it's the nature of any tracklist directly transcribed with errors and such to look awful, but it's still official. We do things officially that look awful all the time - Synphonic Suite from Actraiser, THEME OF ADORU 1993, Dike,I'm home, Adrenaline Blowouts The Fear... all of those have either misspellings, bad capitalization, bad spacing, bad romanization, bad English, or a combination of those things. Yet we do them because they're official. I don't understand why we want to do those terribly, god-awful-looking things officially but we don't want to do romanization, which is terrible and god-awful-looking, officially. This just sounds like the same reason we should now fix all those sorts of errors we officially transcribe - why shouldn't we?

Sure, it is in our power to do romanization one way or another, based on which standard we want to choose, but romanization still has those standards - it's not all totally up in the air to do however you want, even if Phonograph likes to think he can rewrite the romanization standards because he wants it to be cute. If you really just dislike romaji that much, I'll let this go. The only reason I've been so adamant about this is because I really believe that being so picky and choosy about when we are official makes us look slightly hypocritical and unprofessional, and I dislike it. But if it is the final word that we are going to add translations in with romanizations, then so be it. I'm not saying that anyone who romanizes that way is an idiot, it's just inconsistent with how officially we do things.

Last edited by Hellacia; Apr 5, 2012 at 04:51 PM.
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  #24  
Old Apr 6, 2012, 04:08 AM
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Keep in mind that, in conjunction with some of the proposed ideas, we may end up with a purely romanized display title, which means that everyone's collection and marketplace lists will be dominated by stuff like "Orizinaru Saundotorakku". That's why there is so much argument about this.

It also comes back to the question of, what is our purpose for romanizing stuff.
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Old Apr 6, 2012, 04:55 AM
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Ideally, romaji for loan words are treated as N/A, and then something else is shown up depending on user preference, but this would require putting every individual track on the database into a DB, rather than tracklists.
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  #26  
Old Apr 6, 2012, 06:31 AM
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that sort of conversation makes me feel that I want to stop submitting tracklists or correcting romanizations (I had seen "Nami Onna" instead of "Kanojo")
honestly, I could be pissed off and next errors I see could stay as they are (gl with professionalism)
because I'm like the only one in here who corrects those bad readings (maybe, nobody cares romaji or is fine with any shit people could submit)

Last edited by Phonograph; Apr 6, 2012 at 06:40 AM.
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  #27  
Old Apr 6, 2012, 07:01 AM
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In all honesty, why are we arguing about romaji tracklists when they're so very clearly in the minority for anyone who cares about them? If you want to come up with some sort of standard romanization method, that's fine, but only a handful of people actually create romaji tracklists and for all intents and purposes they're basically useless. The majority of people who visit this site want either the original tracklist or the translated tracklist. Romaji serves no logical purpose outside of wanting to know how something is pronounced.

As far as romaji in the display titles potentially becoming the default, I can't see anyone wanting that. It makes no sense whatsoever. No one wants to see "Arubamu" and "Orijinaru" or "Ongaku". That's just assinine for a predominantly English speaking site that provides content and information for English speaking users. I'm all for a preference that says "My default title display is < >", and you can pick one of our 4 current options or Original, Romaji, English or whatever they are, and then have your default be your default display in all things that query an album title. That's probably some work on the HTML side, but it satisfies everyone without having to completely redo the database and it saves the administration from having to say "This is the definitive going forward, anything else is against the rules" which will alienate some user preferences for sure.
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  #28  
Old Aug 27, 2012, 09:35 PM
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Man, good times. I still think having romaji tracklists that have translations in them rather than romaji is retarded. Why call it a romaji tracklist.

But seriously I'm posting because I wanted to explain the recent title edit I made, I changed it because of the way it's written in the Tray (I never noticed it, I must not be paying attention ). It's the only place the title is written like this, but I'm under the impression that we always use the way it's written in English on the album itself before going to our own way of writing it. Actually the whole album title thing is a real mess, isn't it? But I'm going with the way I think I know how we do it!
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  #29  
Old Aug 28, 2012, 01:10 AM
Hellacia Hellacia is offline
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Okay more stuff.

The notes section had this in it:
Quote:
M-02
Lyrics: Ikuko Ebata
Composition & Arrangement: Yoh Ohyama
Vocals: Kanako Ito
I deleted it. Don't know what it was - some copy/paste of the track 1 info? Track 2 is a BGM/instrumental song, and so this info isn't in the booklet and doesn't apply.

Also, ZIZZ STUDIO and Yoh Ohyama are credited as separate composers here, but Yoh Ohyama is ZIZZ STUDIO in this case, he is its sole composer for this soundtrack. I know I should do like a
ZIZZ STUDIO (Yoh Ohyama)
thing in the composer field, but I don't want to mess up any artist linking we have going on here. If I do this, will it mess it up? And if so, how do I do it correctly? Thanks
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  #30  
Old Aug 28, 2012, 01:59 AM
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Nisto Nisto is offline
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Well, I guess Efendija already did it for you now...

Anyway, just change it on the normal edit page (after this, it will not already change on the album page because assigned/linked artists have higher priority, so they override the field values if anything is assigned), go to the artist manager and link the person to the unit (the drop-down list of available units to link the artist to will only show up once the artist is linked and there is a unit name in front of the artist name in the respective field on the edit page).

Last edited by Nisto; Aug 28, 2012 at 02:18 AM.
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