#31
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I agree with Cedille, Seanne, and Another, particularly after seeing how excited people are about the upcoming content filter, so that they can remove doujins from display. Also, it is clear that we don't know how to tell if a publisher is Commercial, or Doujin, or Independent. Is it some license, or a revenue threshhold, or number of albums produced/artists represented? It's more of "I know it when I see it."
After sleeping on this, I'm beginning to think that Publisher type, as in the Publisher's status as a business, shouldn't be on the album pages. It should be on the publisher page, because it's fixed thing that rarely changes. An alternative is to list Publication type. Some ideas for this: Commercial -- Usually sold; publisher has rights to all content; consumer has no redistribution rights Open -- Usually downloaded; publisher has rights to all content; consumer is granted redistribution rights Fan-Arrange -- May be sold or downloaded; publisher has rights to derived content, but not to the original content Bootleg -- Usually sold; publisher has no rights to distribute content The names certainly aren't set in stone, and there are some permutations that aren't listed. More discussion would be needed. I think this categorizes albums in a way that you can better filter out stuff you don't want to see. |
#32
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I am for that solution.
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#33
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I'm ok with this.
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#34
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Just an addition, what would a free album where the consumer is not granted redistribution? They are few and far between but I've seen albums, I'll get back to you if I find a good example, I know there are stuff like this on bandcamp. Also is there any idea implementing a "Creative Commons" category where you can actually specify the type of CC license used? CC has been increasingly common when it comes to original music at the very least and if this goes into VGM more it would certainly be nice to have. Another benefit is supporting this publication type and having an accurate database of work that can legally be remixed/re-arranged/altered and how.
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#35
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Playing devils advocate, we might be crossing the line on turning this field into another content one.
It is possible that there could be an album with 1 original track, 1 fan arrange track, 1 track which they previously put up for free distribution, 1 licensed track, and 1 bootleg track they stole from someone else's album, and had no right to redistribute. That would practically be unclassifiable here. |
#36
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I guess I'm withdrawing my position of 'ok with this.' It still has some problems to be worked out. |
#37
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Well then, polish up the classification, make the class dictate the color coding, add the possibility of combining classification (original+arrange) (soundtrack+arrange) (fan-arrange+anime) and so on first? Publisher type still seems like it's not as important as content in my opinion but I might be outnumbered.
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Last edited by Another Soundscape; Apr 22, 2010 at 12:01 PM. |
#38
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The case SS suggests (though if it's not a very likely one) is more complicated since it involves several release types. I think normally it's almost impossible for there to be a conflict between the three we have. It's either going to be one or the other. |
#39
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#40
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Yeah, my example was kind of crazy, on purpose.
Taking a step back, we need a way for the user to filter out doujin/fan-arranges, and bootlegs. This was one of our earliest requirements. Originally we didn't have all of these other classifiers; we just has this one classification field that served this purpose. So no matter what we want to call it, and whether it replaces this field, or whether it is generated from track content instead of set, it's still an absolute requirement. The classification I proposed above based loosely on licensing was a first stab, but it might be worthwhile to develop it further. |
#41
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I think the current system (commercial/doujin/bootleg) is good enough and covers most cases, and honestly I always thought the field meant album publication type. Though I'd prefer Official (=non Doujin) or rather "General" over Commercial (=implies 'money').
I see it as a general idea of the album type. There will be always edge cases (=old 'independent' type) but so what, pick the most likely type and add some notes if you must. Can't classify every album perfectly? Oh well. For Doujin, to me it's more about the 'intention' of the publisher/person. Like if Uematsu made some free, new album for his site that'd be official (=he'd want it to be as official as any FF ost). But if he arranged some Touhou stuff or compose for a doujin label/circle/game/anime or remixed on Overclocked Remix that could be Doujin (=part of the Doujin subculture). I don't think professionalism should matter to classify Doujin (ex). And like Cedille said it shouldn't cover all the 'independent' releases. Anyway seems the "indepedent" type was already merged so no much left to discuss I guess. |
#42
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Are we abandoning "Publish Format"? I most certainly hope so. It annoys me to no and that it's the field (afaik) dictating the release type, color coding and so on. In my example people are now sorting away the official soundtrack to Kaleidoscope ( http://vgmdb.net/album/17965 ) because it's labeled as Doujin/Indie, thinking it's a fan-arrange album. Not saying I've made the best album or anything but I think it's odd. Also not saying Doujin MEANS fan-arrange (it doesn't) but that doesn't change the issue. MOAR DISCUSSION PLZ
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#43
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So, after thinking/talking about it a bit here's a short proposal:
Thoughts, feedback, glaring issues? |
#44
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EDIT: Additionally would it be possible to, when setting Classification, pick which one is the "Main" classification? Maybe using amount of tracks as the criteria for what's the main classification. For example, an original soundtrack featuring 3 bonus arrangement tracks would be classified as both Original Soundtrack and Arrangement, Original Soundtrack giving it the "color" and main category?
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Last edited by Another Soundscape; May 4, 2010 at 04:42 PM. |
#45
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The Fan Arrange classification is an interesting idea. I assume that we would give the orange color code to any album that had at least 1 Fan Arrange track.
We still might be able to salvage something from the Publisher Type field if we can somehow fold in the redistribution rights. |
#46
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So say, 1 fan arrange track and 9 original tracks would result in orange and not blue? This would make sense if we think of VGM as the "important" classification otherwise I'm unsure. My first thought was to use the classification most appropriate (i.e. true for the most tracks) as the color coding. thoughts?
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#47
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We probably need to find some examples to see how this would work out.
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#48
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http://vgmdb.net/album/8119 - one fan-arrangement, 10 original tracks What gets the upper hand? Fan-arrangement is more relevant to VGMdb but it is mainly an original album.
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#49
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Well, that album has a Final Fantasy VII track. I think it would be of interest to someone who was looking for Final Fantasy fan arranges, so we wouldn't want it to be excluded from their searches just because of their filter settings.
Note: I haven't experimented enough to determine when unclassified albums are filtered. We should probably set up a few use cases. Maybe the Classification (Original, Arrange, Drama, etc.) should be added to the filter. |
#50
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#51
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#52
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So what classification would ZUN's albums? He's like THE doujin guy. I'd be strange they'd just become "official". Plus I'd guess he 'endorses' Touhou arranges. And 'works' by doujin circles?
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#53
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Quote:
Quote:
To clarify:
Further thoughts: An alternative, in an attempt to try and make things less arbitrary, is for the 'arrange' classification to be limited to only arranges on albums published by the original rights holder or arranges by the original composer. This too has problems, because there are some albums that are official (or all but) and not published by the original rights holders. So, eh. Last edited by Ira; May 5, 2010 at 01:14 PM. |
#55
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I don't really mind either way, don't get me wrong, but since ZUN and doujin (as in 'doujin subculture') come together in my mind, I find strange (and maybe others will) they'd suddenly become 'normal' osts' when they have been doujin/orange all this time. Since doujin covers more than just arranges/fan-arranges it could get confusing, just saying. And... Mozart arranges wouldn't be fan arranges? :P |
#56
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Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Ira; May 5, 2010 at 01:28 PM. |
#57
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Regarding the color coding for albums in the page listings, if I understand correctly the problems comes from the fact it is also used as a way to distinguish content on a given album, right?
I think it would be a good idea to simplify the color coding to maybe album status (upcoming, released, delayed/canceled, bootleg, these are universal traits of an album no matter what the content is) and instead use icons next to the album titles denoting what it contains, p.e. - RND-001 Random Album [GAME] [TV] | [DJN] [ORIGINAL] [FAN ARRANGEMENT] (that would contain original works as well as fan arrangements of both games and animes). That way, instead of forcing all the categorization info into a single color coding which leaves with incomplete information when browsing albums, all the info would be recognizable at a single glance. Don't know if it's a really good idea, but it can't hurt to give my two cents. |
#58
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By the way, wasn't the popular PC game Myst produced out of some guy's garage? That would make the Myst soundtrack fall under Doujin/Indie, which is also bizarre. Though one distinction is that Mozart music is all public domain. It's fair game for anyone to use it for any purpose. |
#59
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I don't know anything about Myst personally, but I'll just say the way a game is published doesn't determine the way the soundtrack will be.
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#60
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ALSO, "Classification" should only be the content (i.e. arranged music, soundtrack, non-vgm and so on). You're all still talking about "Publish format" aren't you? I'm still in favor of giving publish format a less important role, I really don't understand why it should dictate color (the only thing used to identify albums on the fly)... To me it's way more natural to be looking for albums by content than "Publish format". Beyond this the actual publisher should already have the relevant "publish format" (i.e. a doujin group is a doujin group and so on) so you can find that info there. Am I wrong?
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