#31
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#32
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Getting back to refining our classifications, here's what I think we've got so far.
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I still need to work on instructive text for the rest of these. |
#33
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What will we have to choose .. let say if an album have 1 track of each of these classifications above?
All of them? In other words: how many tracks of each classifications needs to be on the album to make a clear choice ? This is probably a very good idea for track by track details.. but it's probably too much for a "general classification". Voice Samples, and often vocals (OP & ED) are part of the "original soundtrack" of one game most of the time. I am also chocked to have to choose "Silence" as a classification because there's 1 track of silence before an hidden track. |
#34
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I think there's still some confusion about how to use the classifications. If we should continue to use a general, one per album, classification based on "what kind of album it is", or if we should add them based on each individual track? I'm seeing both systems used.
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#35
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Since the same is also true of "Arrangement", perhaps we should add one more attribute such as 'having no connection to products we cover' (it's game, anime or something oriented from either). The definition of "Arrangement" may not be easy, but one point I'd want to see emphasized is that a piece of music that is an arrangement of something should still be considered "Original Soundtrack" as long as it's used in the game. I think this policy is consistent with the way we've classified soundtracks like Dissidia.
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#36
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I don't like using one classification. If anything, classify each track or at least add all classifications that apply to the tracks on an album. In my opinion the classification that decides color coding and similar should be the one featured on the most tracks.
The only issue I can see if there's a CD with each sound fx as a separate 0:01 track. That'd cause some issues
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#37
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Thanks, I forgot I had already defined Talk and Drama.
Classification is done on a track basis, so if the album contains one drama track, then we include Drama in the classifications. The way we formerly used this field was inconsistent. While we only used vocal for "Vocal Albums", we marked an album as Arrange even if it only had one arrangement. Classifying the album based on any track returns us to consistency. As for Silence, yeah maybe we should drop that one. It's only specific to a subset of media (CDs and DVDs). |
#38
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I think the Licensed classification could be applied to songs that weren't composed especially for the games. But if you think that this classification may be confused with covers of pop songs, like in GuitarFreak series, I have no objection if you prefer to exclude it. I don't think the Licensed classification is essential, as well as Silence.
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#39
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I agree, it ends up telling us less about an album instead of more.
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#40
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Well, the alternative is to pick one classification per album, but which would you pick for an album that has one original disc and one arranged disc?
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#41
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That seems like a false dilemma, since we already can specify separate classifications for each media associated with an album. So, we could assign 1 per disc. That said, I see no reason we can't have separate criteria for certain classifications (as we do now.)
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#42
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Oh, so you mean a separate criteria for Vocal, namely that on a soundtrack, we only use it for vocals that aren't OP/ED/IMage. Conversely for albums that are entirely vocal, use "Vocal" even if all tracks are OP/EDs from various sources.
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#43
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I don't mind selecting as many classifications as possible, on the condition that we can ultimately present the classification ratio, but I do think there are some cases where a single classification works more (a J-pop, a live event CD or a best of/a compilation album).
Another concern about "Vocal" is when to select it, in the first place. Should more classical chorus works (OWA) be included? Do we have to select "Vocal" if Haruka Shimotuki is credited, even when her voice only briefly appears in the harmony of a few bars? Without real vocalists, I think Miku Hatsune counts as Vocal, but other software such as QLSC also can sing the words. ...I think we may need to narrow down the definition of "Vocal" so that this classification won't be inflatedly used. |
#44
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I don't know where to draw the line on defining a vocal. If someone just sings a couple of words in the middle of a track, it's hard to call that a vocal, but on the other hand, someone is credited as a vocalist.
What kind of rule could we come up with to prevent over saturation of the vocal classification? Would we use something like "OP+ED Themes don't count as vocals if they are on an original soundtrack" and maybe "Image songs count as Image/Prototype and not Vocal unless they span more than X% of the album." |
#45
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Okay, I've added 4 new classifications, so now the new instructions look like this:
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Anyway, these have been integrated everywhere (I think.) We can still discuss any further changes. |
#46
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For confirmation, is a character song included as "Image/Prototype"? If so, perhaps it'd be better to mention it in the instruction message because I guess the number of character song albums would easily surpass that of an image album (much more that of prototype albums).
While "Unused" could stand as a different classification than "Image/Prototype", I also start thinking it doesn't hurt to separate "Image" from "Prototype". I do see similarity between "Image" and "Prototype", but "Prototype" and "Unused" also have some attributes in common, as below. Unused -> Music that was supposed to be on a product, but eventually not. Prototype -> Music that was supposed to be on a product, but eventually replaced by the final versions. Image -> Music that is not supposed to be on the product itself but composed for other purposes. So it may be not fair to merge only "Prototype" and "Image" of the three classifications. Or rather, I'd merge "Unused" and "Prototype" instead, even if it's still flawed. ...Or, given the fact soundtracks like FFXII still doesn't fall under any classification available, perhaps I'd stretch the definition of "Prototype" to catch them. Unused: A catch-all classification for music that is supposed to be on a product but not. Prototype/Unconverted: Music that is composed for a product but replaced by the final version. Image: Music that is not supposed to be on a product itself but composed for other purposes. Commercial, Character song is included. |
#47
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Isn't an "image album" basically a prototype used for storyboarding? Maybe it's not a prototype of individual tracks as such, but it is a prototype of style, tone, and the composer's capabilities.
Character songs are a bit more tricky. If they were used in the work, then they wouldn't be image at all. I see what you mean about the broad definition "music created for a work but not used in it" might cover too much stuff, but with this division, the Image Album doesn't really fit under the same definition of Image Song. |
#48
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However, if an image album is created after the release of the game, it's hard to call it a prototype. Most tracks of The Entrance Ogre Battle Image Album weren't used in the game because the game was already released, but the composers still made them for the world and characters of the game, so "Prototype" doesn't fit this case. "Unused" can apply, but I think those tracks are, the likes of a commercial song or a character song that isn't used in the game or anime, so my preferred way is to group them together under "Image". Those Studio Ghibli albums can be classified as Prototypes, despite their names. |
#49
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That's why I didn't split up Image and Prototype - because most Image Albums won't be classified as Image, which is confusing.
That does leave a lot of image and character songs which we don't know what to do with. Maybe this is what Vocal should be used for -- character songs, image songs, commercial songs -- but not in-game vocals like OPs or EDs. |
#50
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Street Fighter II Image Album -G.S.M. CAPCOM-: looks like "Arrangement". Samurai Spirits Image Album: If the obi is correct, it's "Arrangement". Breath of Fire V Dragon Quarter Mini Image Soundtrack: it's basically the same as FFXII. We currently don't have any classification that fits this. World Heroes 2 Image Album : If the obi is correct, it's "Arrangement". Image Album Ys V: Kefin, The Lost City of Sand: based on the Obi and back, "Original Soundtrack + Arrangement + Vocal". Garou Densetsu Image Album: If the obi is correct, it's "Arrangement". Art of Fighting 2 Image Album: if the flyer is correct, it's "Arrangement". World Heroes 2 Jet Image Album:If the obi is correct, it's "Arrangement". Fate/Zero Original Image Soundtrack "RETURN TO ZERO": looks like "Original Soundtrack" Usotukiha tenshino hajimari Image Album: If the obi is correct, it's "Original Soundtrack" + "Vocal" Rockman 10 Image Soundtrack: looks like "Arrangement". Quote:
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#51
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Maybe we should just change Image/Prototype to Protoype/Unused, and refrain from using the problematic word "Image". Then, we can come up with another name for a category of peripherally related music (commercial songs, etc.)
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#52
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I agree 'image' is a problematic classification since it's a pretty broad concept which could, at its broadest interpretation, include pretty much everything (since even original music for a product is created based on some manner of information about its contents).
But staying within reason I guess it could be divided into two types - music made and released before the product, and music made and released after the product. The first would include 'image albums' and 'image singles' such as the ones made by Hisaishi and Studio Ghibli. I really have no idea why they make and release these albums - it seems pretty meaningless - unless it's intended to create hype or something. Anyway, image singles will typically not be used in the finished product at all, while at least some tracks from an image album will be, though perhaps in a slightly different form/arrangement. For the second type I would include any and all albums related to a given product which features all-new music - this is to disallow your typical arrange or vocal album. So examples would be for instance the kind of voice-actress solo albums Konami likes to release (e.g. My Sweet Valentine / Shiori Fujisaki). |
#53
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So for clarification, all "OSTs" with sound design significantly diverging from what's used in-game should be using this classification? I'm still considering a remaster (as in mastering process in music) something different than what's effectively changed instrumentation. Maybe call it Revamp then?
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#54
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Should we change the category to Remaster/Revamp? I think the main purpose of the classification is to warn the user about soundtracks that don't sound quite sound like any of the game versions, so I don't think we would need two separate categories for remaster and this "demaster". I'd rather figure out a way to combine them.
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#55
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Although I know we shouldn't make submitters overwhelmed by the number of classifications to select, part of me also wonders that we should combine multiple classifications so quickly if there is a moderate difference (that wasn't the case with pre-order bonus and early purchase bonus). We can merge unused and prototype, or remaster and so-called demaster later if we realize it's hard to make a decision on which it is. However, I guess prototype is a kind of sub-class of unused, and criterion for making a decision will be from liner notes, track names, or our ears judgement, so I think merging is fine.
As for revamp or demaster (without a satisfactory command of the English language, I'm not the best person to examine the words suggested, but does "revamp" fit how those soundtrack are created?), when I browse only a few of super-famous composer's discographies superficially and drop out something unclear, there are already 20++ albums. Considering that I'm missing quite lots, I feel the eventual number will turn out to be enough to justify having a separate classification for it. And I honestly merging remaster and demaster is confusing (e.g. if remaster/revamp tag is added, couldn't potentially some people have a wrong idea that the reprint of Vagrant Story features unconverted music like some of Sakimoto's other soundtracks?). http://vgmdb.net/album/204 http://vgmdb.net/album/608 http://vgmdb.net/album/925 http://vgmdb.net/album/1156 http://vgmdb.net/album/1531 http://vgmdb.net/album/1684 http://vgmdb.net/album/1989 http://vgmdb.net/album/2156 http://vgmdb.net/album/4418 http://vgmdb.net/album/4421 http://vgmdb.net/album/4454 http://vgmdb.net/album/4598 http://vgmdb.net/album/4772 http://vgmdb.net/album/4877 http://vgmdb.net/album/4913 http://vgmdb.net/album/5681 http://vgmdb.net/album/6949 http://vgmdb.net/album/7190 http://vgmdb.net/album/8057 http://vgmdb.net/album/10018 http://vgmdb.net/album/11992 http://vgmdb.net/album/13537 http://vgmdb.net/album/15943 http://vgmdb.net/album/17639 |
#56
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Also having FF12 as "Image/Prototype" is strange, since the description is "Music that is related to any of VGMdb's categories, but was not used in it. Image albums and image songs qualify". I don't think it conveys clearly that the music is 'tweaked/better' than in the game but still the same music. |
#57
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Definitely agreed, and that's why I suggested "Prototype/Unconverted" instead, but it's still flawed. |
#58
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Now we have "Video", are we going to classify the content of each video? I think it inherently overlaps with other classifications... like "Vocal".
A DVD that contains a video of concerts -> Video + Live Event? A DVD that contains an interview with artists -> Video + Talk? A DVD that contains a promotional movie of an OP/ED theme -> Video + Original Soundtrack? Aside of concert DVDs, I personally think it's too redundant and don't want to use it elsewhere. As a matter of consistency, I think maybe we should keep it "Video" alone every time. To catch up commercial songs, trailer music, character songs or whatnot, how about "others"? (didn't we previously have it as platform or classification?) This classification can be used for music that is used outside of the product itself as well as miscellaneous music any other classification doesn't cover. I know it sounds too vague, though. |
#59
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And you are right, some mastering is normal and we should only use 'revamp' or whatever with clear cases, though I always thought the original VS OST's echo and channel balance was off and the remaster is closer to the game, but maybe it's just me. |
#60
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So, I don't know. My only argument about being more specific in classifying was trying to keep a "manageable" number of Classifications. If we relax that restriction, we are free to add a lot more. This might help with some of the objections to the use of the Vocal classification. I'll propose something to start discussion:
Remaster - music improved for the soundtrack release "Demaster" - whatever you call this, where the music was downgraded, sequenced, after composition. I'd need Datschge to help come up with a name and a description for it. Prototype Unused "Image" - Honestly, I don't know if this isn't covered by some others Vocal Arrange Synth Vocal - Vocaloids fit here OP Theme ED Theme Character Song Commercial Song Image Song - I guess this is a catch-all for the rest, like the albums Seanne mentioned Licensed Unlicensed - (For illegal use of licensed work? Like the Ending Theme by Toto from the 1st Dune Movie, which can be found on one of the Farland enclosures Derivative Work - Incorporation of older game themes, or classical music Game-Related - For everything else vaguely related to games, but somehow miraculously not covered by all these categories. Of course, I still don't know if one of these categories fits FFXIII..... |
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