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  #1  
Old Apr 25, 2011, 01:07 PM
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Er, if only it was very clear, but since http://vgmdb.net/album/6097 lists only NUMBER 201, is disc 3 just by NUMBER 201? Not that I see any booklet credits to really verify it, though

edit: er, I kind of re-realized NUMBER 201 is James Harris and KATE

Last edited by mercenary09; Apr 25, 2011 at 02:47 PM.
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  #2  
Old Apr 28, 2011, 02:47 PM
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alternately, some tracks are (b)romanized differently here than in the link I added above
Anyone want to figure these out? (track numbers are from this album)

11 激突する魂 = Gekitotsu Suru Kon (6097) vs Gekitotsu Suru Tamashii (5386).
17 消えない想い = Kienai Omoi (1575) vs Kienai Omoi (5386)
21 黄金の王 = Kogane no Ou (1575) vs Ougon no Ou (5386)
27 移りゆく季節 = Utsuriyuku Kisetsu (1575) vs Utsuri Yuku Kisetsu (5386)

Last edited by mercenary09; Apr 28, 2011 at 03:08 PM. Reason: whirir, and updated (second edit)
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  #3  
Old Nov 24, 2011, 01:23 AM
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I know translating can be a rather large time investment, but is anyone interested in translating this track list? I've had this soundtrack for a while and I haven't been able to find an English track list. I'd offer to help, but I doubt there's much I can do.

Thanks for reading!
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  #4  
Old Oct 17, 2013, 11:44 AM
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Ummm... why was 約束された勝利の剣 written as "Excalibur" in the Romaji tracklist? I know we're writing katakana out into the word it's sounding out, but... I really don't think that this is katakana sounding out a word...

EDIT: And why is この世全ての悪 written as "Angra Mainyu" in the romaji tracklist?

Romaji Excalibur: エクスカリバー
What we have: 約束された勝利の剣
Romaji Angra Mainyu: アングラマイニュ
What we have: この世全ての悪

Come on, Phonograph, seriously.

Last edited by Hellacia; Oct 17, 2013 at 11:48 AM.
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Old Oct 17, 2013, 12:09 PM
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I didn't see any furigana in the tracklist for this album, but the Fate/stay series (and a lot of anime/manga series) uses a lot of foreign-language forced readings for attacks & special powers.

Copy/pasting from Wikipedia:
Quote:
使用者の魔力を“光”に変換し究極の斬撃として放つ星の鍛えた聖剣「約束された勝利の剣(エクスカリバー)」の2つの宝具を持つ。
Quote:
第三次聖杯戦争の時から大聖杯内に留まる復讐者(アヴェンジャー)のサーヴァント、この世全ての悪(アンリマユ)との契約の影響で、人格まで変貌した禍々しい姿(俗に「黒桜」と呼ばれる)となり、冬木市で大虐殺を行った 。
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  #6  
Old Oct 17, 2013, 12:37 PM
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did I need to add anything else? =)

Last edited by Phonograph; Oct 17, 2013 at 01:04 PM.
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  #7  
Old Oct 18, 2013, 10:36 AM
Hellacia Hellacia is offline
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I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make, CHz, so whatever I missed, my bad. I'll make my point differently though.

エクスカリバー says Excalibur.
約束された勝利の剣 says Yakusokusareta Shouri no Tsurugi.
約束された勝利の剣 means Excalibur.
アングラマイニュ says Angra Mainyu.
この世全ての悪 says Konoyo Subete no Aku.
この世全ての悪 means Angra Mainyu.

To illustrate this point even better: 深き眠り means deep sleep. So that's what goes in the English translation - the meaning. What it says goes into the Romaji tracklist, and that is Fukaki Nemuri. Isn't that what a Romaji tracklist is - (essentially) how you pronounce the Japanese words, or what loan words the characters are intending for you to pronounce? The Japanese have the option of writing エクスカリバー, which they in fact did in parentheses right next to 約束された勝利の剣 in the text you quoted, CHz. But they didn't write エクスカリバー in this soundtrack, they wrote 約束された勝利の剣, and that is romanized a whole different way. And romanization is what we put in a romaji tracklist.

Do I need to add anything else? =)
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  #8  
Old Oct 18, 2013, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacia View Post
...

And romanization is what we put in a romaji tracklist.

...
no, really? I was in the wrong of this time
fortunately you're here to enlighten people who know NOTHING about japanese
my hero, no, my god... after all, I only make english/romaji tracklists for 12+ years (I still have things to learn, O great hellacia teach me)
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Old Oct 18, 2013, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacia View Post
What it says goes into the Romaji tracklist
Yes. And in the context of Fate/stay, 約束された勝利の剣 is said "Excalibur," so it should go in the romaji tracklist. The pronunciation is not explicitly noted on this album, which is why I pasted from Wikipedia.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacia View Post
The Japanese have the option of writing エクスカリバー, which they in fact did in parentheses right next to 約束された勝利の剣 in the text you quoted, CHz. But they didn't write エクスカリバー in this soundtrack, they wrote 約束された勝利の剣, and that is romanized a whole different way.
Are you saying that if something has an established pronunciation, but that pronunciation isn't given on the album, then we should disregard that pronunciation and use a literal reading of the Japanese characters? That seems weird. What's the point of a romaji tracklist if it's not how the titles are pronounced?
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  #10  
Old Oct 18, 2013, 02:24 PM
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I could even add something else, when you see the way the tracklist is written on cover/booklet you can wonder if there is even room for furigana (forced reading)
plus, with tracknames with parentheses, if there was furigana I even wonder if the furigana would have been clear enough to be understood as such

the way it's written, you can't have furigana because it'd be too small to read
so, does that mean they didn't mean side readings?
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  #11  
Old Oct 18, 2013, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHz View Post
Are you saying that if something has an established pronunciation, but that pronunciation isn't given on the album, then we should disregard that pronunciation and use a literal reading of the Japanese characters? That seems weird. What's the point of a romaji tracklist if it's not how the titles are pronounced?
The last question is exactly what I'm suggesting we do, CHz - write how the titles are pronounced. It's now just up to you... or, whoever, I don't know... if you want to go by how a set of characters are actually pronounced, or how people choose to usually pronounce them. If people see 約束された勝利の剣 and pronounce it Excalibur because they know that's what it means, okay, but 約束された勝利の剣 sure as hell is not "ekusukaribā", and what seems weird to me is saying that it is, even if it is usually pronounced by people in Japan that way just because they know what it means. But if cultural habits trump character pronunciation in a romaji tracklist, then just move along now.
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Old Oct 18, 2013, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacia View Post
The last question is exactly what I'm suggesting we do, CHz - write how the titles are pronounced. It's now just up to you... or, whoever, I don't know... if you want to go by how a set of characters are actually pronounced, or how people choose to usually pronounce them. If people see 約束された勝利の剣 and pronounce it Excalibur because they know that's what it means, okay, but 約束された勝利の剣 sure as hell is not "ekusukaribā", and what seems weird to me is saying that it is, even if it is usually pronounced by people in Japan that way just because they know what it means. But if cultural habits trump character pronunciation in a romaji tracklist, then just move along now.
But doesn't this also depends on what the subject is, on Fate/stay 約束された勝利の剣 should be Excalibur, but perhaps on some other series etc. it needs to be romanized normally, unless it's a clear reference to Fate/stay.
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Old Oct 18, 2013, 07:46 PM
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it depends if saber is king arthur in the fate game
in fate/stay night games, she is king arthur, but for example in fate/extra she is nero so excalibur would make no sense if the trackname was used and afaik it never has been
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Old Oct 18, 2013, 07:50 PM
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But on Fate/extra's case it would be a clear reference to the original universe stuff.
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Old Oct 18, 2013, 07:59 PM
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no, because her noble phantasm is different, you can't have excalibur even as a reference
it's a fire attack (reference to nero's coliseum "incident")
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Old Oct 18, 2013, 08:23 PM
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I think one important thing is going unsaid. 約束された勝利の剣 doesn't mean Excalibur. 約束された勝利の剣 means The Sword of Promised Victory. It quite literally translates to that, and that's all the phrase means. The significance of the phrase 約束された勝利の剣 is that Fate/Stay Night has developed it to mean Excalibur all on its own - that is, this phrase doesn't mean Excalibur outside of the anime.

Japanese Excalibur page
Page for 約束された勝利の剣 (which doesn't exist)
Yes it's just Wikipedia sure, but if 約束された勝利の剣 was a real term, then you bet Wikipedia would at least have a page on it. Additionally, the エクスカリバー page makes no mention of 約束された勝利の剣 anywhere.

If the Japanese want to say Excalibur, then they write エクスカリバー, because it's a loan word. This makes 約束された勝利の剣 Fate/Stay Night's own term, and in Fate/Stay Night, Excalibur isn't the "established" pronunciation of the term, it *is* the pronunciation of the term. Cultural habit has nothing to do with it. If this was a phrase used outside of the anime to generally mean Excalibur, then I would agree with your reasoning much more Hellacia, but it isn't. In this case, the context of the anime really is everything because the anime has created this phrase.

I hope this makes sense.

Last edited by Mortavia; Oct 18, 2013 at 08:25 PM.
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Old Oct 18, 2013, 08:33 PM
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^^^ Good post. This is gonna duplicate some of that but I don't really want to throw it away now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacia View Post
The last question is exactly what I'm suggesting we do, CHz - write how the titles are pronounced.
This is exactly what Phono and I are saying. What we're trying to explain is that the author of the Fate series has decided that the weapon 約束された勝利の剣 is pronounced as エクスカリバー, not as やくそくされたしょうりのけん (or つるぎ or whatever; 剣 can go two ways and I'm not sure how you've decided what's right). エクスカリバー isn't the usual pronunciation that you'd use if you saw that phrase somewhere else, but for the game it's how Kinoko Nasu has decided it's said.

This forced pronunciation is indicated with furigana, a Japanese pronunciation guide. Usually furigana is used for clarification, but it can also be used as a type of wordplay, where what's said (furigana) is different from what's meant (the text). This kind of use is really common in battle series like Fate, where an attack has a descriptive, literal Japanese name but a cool-sounding name that's what people actually say out loud. I haven't played the game, but Phono mentioned that the servants use the furigana names in the game, not the kanji, and in the anime series Saber yells out "EX --- CALIBUR" a lot.

It's not a cultural thing at all: if a Japanese person found the phrase 約束された勝利の剣 in an unrelated book, they'd pronounce it like you're proposing. It's just that that's not the pronunciation for Fate/stay night.
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Old Oct 18, 2013, 08:38 PM
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CHz, remember that he's yelling Excalibur because it's the name of the sword, and 約束された勝利の剣 seems to be more of a title for it from what I've found out googling this morning. But we've somewhat discussed this on irc channel already. And I'm still on the Sword of Promised Victory > Excalibur stance. (Which means it should be romanized properly and not as Excalibur). Names and titles are different things. Of course, no we need a proper Type Moon genius here.
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Old Oct 18, 2013, 08:43 PM
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Okay, hold on, if Fate/stay night made up 約束された勝利の剣, then that's obviously much different than trying to explain the difference with established pronunciations, furigana readings, and... whatever other stuff that isn't important. To me, this looked like a really bad case of translating vs. romanizing in a romaji tracklist. This was in part because I don't know anything about Fate/stay night and in part because nobody bothered to leave any sort of note regarding the nature of this very strange romanization. And then when I bitched about it, nobody gave me a good explanation until Mortavia came along. If Fate/stay night made it up, then... well, like I said before, move right along now. I was gonna give up on it anyway.

I guess I won't bother to touch この世全ての悪, you can do whatever you want with it and with 約束された勝利の剣, I concede.
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Old Oct 18, 2013, 08:51 PM
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P.S. Phonograph, if you want to go on about your 12+ years doing romaji tracklists, have a better explanation than some half-coherent and fully-irrelevant shit about the soundtrack not having room for furigana. Seriously bro, your Japanese may be great, but your English sucks and I can barely understand what you say half the time, fuck. As far as I could see, you translated vs. romanized and you didn't give me the beginning of a good explanation as to why, so I really don't care how long you've been doing it if you can't get your point across any better than that. If I'm wrong and you want to tell me why, tell me why in English, not in Phonograph.
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  #21  
Old Oct 18, 2013, 08:54 PM
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if I must start to explain anything I made, I need more hours in a day
I never expected someone (or more) who know(s) nothing about japanese dared to ask for something

for your info, I never translate in a romaji tracklist
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Old Oct 18, 2013, 08:59 PM
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I don't mean when you do it, I mean when someone calls you out about it. Though when you do it would be really helpful, that's kind of what the discussions are for. Man, if you would have just mentioned "this track and this track are actually pronounced like this in the anime and the anime made it up so I wrote it like that" that would have been awesome and taken like what, 3 minutes? People post stuff like that all the time in discussions and it really helps. Obviously don't post about routine romanization, but these two were special, you could have left a note.

EDIT: May I point out that those romanizations were well after-the-fact changes to the already existing tracklist, so you very well could have left a nice note explaining why you did such an odd looking thing to a romaji tracklist rather than assuming that everyone who comes by is going to have the same knowledge about Fate/stay night that you have. That's why there was an announcement made about posting your edits, right? Am I imagining that? Explaining your edit would have been nice.

Anyway whatever, yes, the roles have been reversed now, I know nothing about Japanese and you, Phonograph, my hero, no, my god, O teach me, Phonograph because you know everything.

Except about English, cause DAMN.

Last edited by Hellacia; Oct 18, 2013 at 09:03 PM.
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  #23  
Old Oct 18, 2013, 09:07 PM
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chz summed up my thoughts, so why adding something else?
plus, I don't know everything (yet ;p) so if you could avoid that shit in the future

just a question, did you take me seriously or your sense of humour is hidden behind your arrogance?
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Old Oct 18, 2013, 09:13 PM
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Sense of humor? Me? Are you kidding me?

By the way, here's a good read, and next time source your edits please. Seriously.
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Old Oct 18, 2013, 09:17 PM
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I never knew if the translation thing (I know this post, btw) was for own translations, other translations or both
I've always thought it's when you change the translation made by someone else

I never thought asking ss tho (I generally ask him for other things)
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  #26  
Old Oct 18, 2013, 09:25 PM
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It's just a generally good thing to do if an edit goes against the norm. Otherwise, we just kind of have to take your word for it when it looks like you translated something versus romanized something in a romaji tracklist. I know that you know how long you've been doing it and that you know what you're doing, now let us know that too, and all that takes is a simple post about something as odd as this. That's the point of sourcing edits - the rest of us very well may not know why you did it. Not every single member on the site has your knowledge about any given product, so explain your knowledge to us. That's how we all know that you know what you're doing.

Last edited by Hellacia; Oct 18, 2013 at 09:27 PM.
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Old Oct 18, 2013, 09:39 PM
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as you probably noticed (certainly), teaching people isn't my strong point
edit: honestly, you're the first one to care about that, I don't remember people asking "why did you change? etc."

I do the things as I feel
as I feel, actually it's quite false (about english tracklists)
I generally want to use synonyms or even sort of reinterpretation to make something unique but still close to original meaning
however, I don't do that
why? because of people like you who prevent creativity with questions (why you used that and not that, etc.), so I feel forced to use the common things you use in translations

I have retranslated some stuff like ff type-0 ost but I won't submit it because I know people could ask why I used some things rather than other ones
I prefer to avoid that, it's simpler

Last edited by Phonograph; Oct 18, 2013 at 09:44 PM.
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Old Sep 10, 2015, 12:13 AM
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Little note: I've changed EMIYA to all caps here and in the other albums since it was pretty inconsistent across the entries. There are two cases where it's written in English and it follows that styling: EMIYA #LEGACY and EMIYA #0.

Some days ago I've also changed all the occurrences of 約束された勝利の剣 and この世全ての悪 to the respective reading provided in the game as discussed above, as that was even more inconsistent.
In case there's still any doubt as it wasn't really clarified here, this is how it appears in the game: http://imgur.com/a/K9FVN
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