SQEX-10102~3: FINAL FANTASY TACTICS A2 Grimoire of the Rift Original...

[Blue_Kirby2]

Just got a couple of questions regarding this album.


In the liner notes, the booklet has Mitsuhiro Kaneda credited for having composed track 42 on disc 2, which is obviously incorrect as disc 2 only has 27 tracks. Any idea what the correct track is supposed to be? I've heard that it's supposedly disc 2, track 20 but I'm wondering if there's any solid proof for that claim.


And for this section of the liner notes:

Arranger: Masaharu Iwata (Basiscape), Mitsuhiro Kaneda (Basiscape), Kimihiro Abe (Basiscape), Noriyuki Kamikura (Basiscape)

Is this saying that these four guys actually wrote the arranged music along with Sakimoto, or did they merely do all the technical stuff with the music that Sakimoto wrote (recording, mixing, etc.)? Seems a bit vague.

[Cedille]

Originally Posted by Blue_Kirby2

Is this saying that these four guys actually wrote the arranged music along with Sakimoto, or did they merely do all the technical stuff with the music that Sakimoto wrote (recording, mixing, etc.)? Seems a bit vague.

I remember reading an interview where Sakimoto said the former was right.

I personally think the music production of FFTA is much more vague, but now is not when we should talk about this.

[Chris]

There's no solid proof of the Mitsuhiro Kaneda claim, but those who know the respective styles of Sakimoto and Kaneda are convinced this is right. I know when I first heard it, I thought 'this can't be Sakimoto' without realizing Kaneda contributed.

[strugglepoo]

The composer credit for 01-27 is another printing error. They must mean 01-26 ("Beyond the Wasteland"), which she is credited for in the first FFTA.

[evilaman]

According to www.squareenixmusic.com:

Kaori Ohkoshi
Composed 'Beyond The Wasteland' (disc 1, track 26).
Source: http://www.squareenixmusic.com/compo.../ohkoshi.shtml
Mitsuhiro Kaneda
Composed 'The Unfolding Darkness' (disc 2, track 22).
Source: http://www.squareenixmusic.com/compo...projects.shtml

Hopefully this helps.

[strugglepoo]

Nah, "The Unfolding Darkness" is definitely Sakimoto. As a big Kaneda fan, I can tell you that he definitely did "Front and Back".

[Jormungand]

struggle is right.

[Chris]

Yeah, I'm not sure how that mistake got there, as the album page on SEMO has always said Front and Back. It's definitely him.

[Mieu]

Originally Posted by Blue_Kirby2

Is this saying that these four guys actually wrote the arranged music along with Sakimoto, or did they merely do all the technical stuff with the music that Sakimoto wrote (recording, mixing, etc.)? Seems a bit vague.

I would like to say yes, but with varying degrees. The Salikawood piece in this soundtrack is quite heavily arranged, but not much so in other arrangements.

[Dag]

Revised a bit the tracklist, to match the FFT-A (and the revisions).

Also a couple more changes:

Spoiler:

109 Grasp Victory -> Grasped Victory (not a command)
121 Into the Fantasy -> In the Fantasy (into/へ vs in/で)
125 A Time Eternal -> Eternal Time (this is more like an adj)
203 actually didn't say the name of the original FFTA track
205 A Hurried Guess -> A Hurried Escape (idiom) *thanks Cedille
219 FF12 OST uses "The Sky Fortress Bahamut"

[Cedille]

2-05 may also need revision. I can imagine verbs like "Run", "Escape" or such can be used, but "Guess"?

[razakin]

I wonder if someone could ask Sakimoto about who arranged what (if he's allowed to even tell that information), and also ask about what track Kaneda did actually compose.

[Mac_Tear]

Yeah, that would be interesting to know...
As for Kaneda, he composed 2-20 "Front and Back", it's absolutely his style.

[TerraEpon]

So the arrangers....there's four of them, I wonder if it means that they each arranged a track of the four non-Sakimoto pieces? Espeically given the way the credits are worded.

Bah...I hate this vagueness...

Also, this is a VERY minor thing but it almost looks like the booklet tracklist has "FF XII" rather than "FFXII"...it's very hard to tell given the lack of context

[Mac_Tear]

Did Hitoshi Sakimoto arrange his new compositions himself or was this also done by those four arrangers? I always wondered how much he was involved here.

Most of the Basiscape soundtracks have breakdowns, why not this one?

[dissident93]

maybe because it was published by square enix and not basiscape records? I don't know who handles the liner notes/credits for them but it's a possibility.

[strugglepoo]

I think I remember reading that Sakimoto needed to submit a revision of Green Wind, but was afraid it wouldn't cut it in time, so that leads me to believe he handled his own new compositions. If only I could remember where I saw that... The new compositions certainly have his fingerprints all over it and seem to have a different vibe than the arranged tracks, so I definitely think the rest of Basiscape handled those.

There are 5 tracks in particular that are substantially different:
In the Fantasy [from FFXII "The Salikawood"]
-The lute sounding instrument in the first bit and in the outro. Has a very distinct rhythmic syncopation that's reminiscent of Kaneda or Abe's style. I can't decide which one.

Peaceful Days [from FFT-A "Monster Farm"]
-This is the most glaring one. The descending chromatic celesta is different from the harp in the original, but that's small potatoes. An oboe melody and counterpoint was added, string melody differs. The progression diverges very drastically at around ~0:50, and then 01:17; obviously completely new sections. Overall, the oboe melodies + harmonies give me a Kaneda vibe.

To the Peak [from FFXII "To the Peak"]
-Diverges pretty drastically at 01:08 from the original. Getting a Kaneda vibe from this one.

The Sky Pirates from the East [from FFXII "Penelo's Theme"]
-Castanets. Kaneda was very fond of using those during this time period. Also, the chromatic ascension change at 0:52 is something to note.

Airport [from FFXII "Naivety"]
Castanets again. String triplet melody at 0:22. As an aside, the arrangement and instrumentation here improves this composition tenfold, just like all the arrangements on this OST.

[maneatinglizard]

Why isn't Sakimoto listed as an arranger? The soundtrack does say "Music Composed, Arranged & Produced by Hitoshi Sakimoto"

[TerraEpon]

I always found it a little wird when someone is credited as 'arranging' music they already wrote.

[seanne]

The arranger field is mainly meant for when previously composed music has been arranged, which doesn't seem to be the case here judging by the booklet notes. The "composed and arranged" term often used in original soundtrack liner notes is a bit misleading in that sense.

[Efendija]

So it's this again:
http://vgmdb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1912

We still don't have a grip what's an arrangement and/or should we ignore what's printed in the booklet (unless it's some huge mistake).

I mean we have cases with an arranging credit when the composers do it for their own & new compositions, just a couple of examples:
http://vgmdb.net/album/24725
http://vgmdb.net/album/29937

I wouldn't mind adding Sakimoto here, if it says right there in the booklet... well... what's priority - booklet or music theory... Both can be valid.

And I guess this discussion will lead nowhere.

[SimonJXZ]

The arranger field was never meant exclusively for previously composed music that has been arranged. If the booklet says "arranged by person", then that person has always been added to the arranger field. It's been the protocol since the beginning. Look at Chrono Trigger/Cross, Final Fantasy anything, Alundra, Legaia... or have we gone away from that now? I'm listing examples of older soundtracks because it's where my old brain automatically goes to, but I'm pretty sure even newer soundtracks like Kid Icarus Uprising does this for the composers (because there are people on that soundtrack that only arranged music, but they're not the only ones credited as arrangers).

[TerraEpon]

To put it a different way, it seems that the arranged by credit is used in a sense by default even if it's the original composer, because it's not ALWAYS the original composer (a similar thing happens in film scores, if it's orchestrated by the composer this will get a mention rather than just saying nothing).

But the fact is, if someone wrote a piece of music, and this music is presented as written, then there's no 'arranging' going on, it's called composing. Now a composer can certainly make a new arrangement later, and I'd say in such cases, especially if the album itself is called an "arrange album", then it could be credited. But for an OST? It's as silly as giving Beethoven an arrangement credit for his symphonies.

[SimonJXZ]

I won't dispute much of what you said. However, it's funny that the conversation comes up about a Sakimoto soundtrack, because often times Sakimoto includes the "full sound version" of his music, which I assume is the collection of compositions before they got altered to comply with whatever media they were being put on - a cartridge, a disc, etc. Does this not make one of those versions an arrangement, or is modifying something to use sequenced sound simply for the reason of fitting it into a game not count? It seems that the versions of the songs on this soundtrack are the versions heard in the game; does that actually make them arrangements?

It seemed to me that it was a policy to simply transcribe whatever is in the booklet given that it's within some amount of accuracy, and by accuracy, I mean naming a correct person, not necessarily conforming to the definition of a term. Sure, it seems a little excessive, but then some of the policies are - I think transcribing exact capitalization even through stylization is excessive, but it's what's done here.

[maneatinglizard]

Originally Posted by TerraEpon

To put it a different way, it seems that the arranged by credit is used in a sense by default even if it's the original composer, because it's not ALWAYS the original composer (a similar thing happens in film scores, if it's orchestrated by the composer this will get a mention rather than just saying nothing).

But the fact is, if someone wrote a piece of music, and this music is presented as written, then there's no 'arranging' going on, it's called composing. Now a composer can certainly make a new arrangement later, and I'd say in such cases, especially if the album itself is called an "arrange album", then it could be credited. But for an OST? It's as silly as giving Beethoven an arrangement credit for his symphonies.

I know it doesn't necessarily make sense to call a person who wrote a piece of music the arranger for it, since no arrangement took place.

But adhering to that principle would require a massive change on this site, as the vast majority of soundtracks do list composers with arrangement credits, whereas only a few don't.

Not only that, but it would break adherence to the credits stated by the published soundtracks themselves, and the majority of those also give arrangement credits to the original composers. And I think in general we should stick to the official credits.

So, for the purposes of consistency and adherence to the industry standard, I think Sakimoto should be credited as an arranger on this album, since he's credited as such.