TOCT-8253: Sword Maniac

[Secret Squirrel]

I think we might need a few comments on some of these newly marked "Reavamp" albums, whether in the form of thread comments or notes or both, to help explain how they were revamped and to teacah people how to use this classification. I can't always figure it out from what's presently on the album.

This album, for example, is arranged so what makes it a revamp? Revamp is really a concept we are using to mark an album where the soundtrack differs between the published form and the actual game/anime source.

[Blitz Lunar]

The tracks on this release are quite clearly extended from their in-game counterparts, in addition to having different sound production and some other differences in the song arrangements. Personally, I'd say that's enough for this album to just be classified as Arrangement, but then I'm not a big fan of the Revamp classification anyway... seems like it'll be more trouble than it's worth.

while I'm here, I may as well ask -- anyone got any more scans for this release or would be able to supply them?

[Cedille]

Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel

This album, for example, is arranged so what makes it a revamp? Revamp is really a concept we are using to mark an album where the soundtrack differs between the published form and the actual game/anime source.

This album contains Sakimoto's original intention, which was later sequenced on the SPC sound chip, so I think Revamp fits this album (like many of his subsequent albums). I leave Arrangement because I'm not sure about Matsuo's part.

Or maybe we should refrain from using Revamp until we're finally able to classify individual tracks and provides percentages. For instance, the FMV tracks and some jingle tracks of FFXII are streamed in the game and basically sound the same as the OST (again, I'm talking about this album because I think it's a pretty major release) so I think its "Original Soundtrack" should stay, but I guess "Original Soundtrack, Revamp" can be confusing. Revamp may work better as a sole classification.

[Secret Squirrel]

Yeah, in practice the revamp classification is starting to look and feel confusing. We might have to hold off on using it until we've got some of the technical capabilities in place.

Also, this means the notes for the album (This CD contains arranged music from the Super Famicom game "Sword Maniac") are incorrect.

[Cedille]

Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel

Yeah, in practice the revamp classification is starting to look and feel confusing. We might have to hold off on using it until we've got some of the technical capabilities in place.

Okay, so I will revert all of my edits

[Medina]

Maybe it is good to hold off on it. Just to say, the game source almost always differs from the published material. In what way would it need to differ? Even if you listen to something like the Fuujin Ryouiki Eretzvaju soundtrack and then take the BGM files directly from the game disc, there's clearly some different mixing going on (high frequencies seem to be clearer / brightness added a bit), even though the instrumentation is the same. And you can hear differences like these in a lot of post 16-bit soundtracks, when game companies started to use streams, not just Eretzvaju. Would those be considered a "revamp"? The published form does differ from the game source.

[Cedille]

Originally Posted by Medina

Maybe it is good to hold off on it. Just to say, the game source almost always differs from the published material. In what way would it need to differ? Even if you listen to something like the Fuujin Ryouiki Eretzvaju soundtrack and then take the BGM files directly from the game disc, there's clearly some different mixing going on (high frequencies seem to be clearer / brightness added a bit), even though the instrumentation is the same. And you can hear differences like these in a lot of post 16-bit soundtracks, when game companies started to use streams, not just Eretzvaju. Would those be considered a "revamp"? The published form does differ from the game source.

Indeed, but I think what's you're doubting is actually the necessity of "Remaster" which I also find it difficult to determine when to use for the very reason you mention.

There are some soundtracks that contains both the in-game versions and the original versions and when both are on the same soundtrack we tend to classify either of the two as "Arrangement" (which implies we thought the difference was enough obvious unlike Fuujin Ryouiki Eretzvaju). I'm perhaps one of the very few members who think we need a dedicated classification (be it called Demaster or Revamp) or at least a consensus on how to handle this because we weren't so in uniform. I don't know how it will ultimately turn out, but I feel we probably hold it off.

[Medina]

Right, I'm totally in tune with what Arrangements are, but it can be hard to identify a remaster, demaster (which I don't even know what that is, worse quality?), or revamp or any sort. I mean maybe nobody even knows, since you'd have to really analyze a game's audio to tell sometimes, like I have with Eretzvaju (but I love all things about Eretzvaju's music). Chances are, many people have not played these games, and those who have maybe haven't listened to the actual soundtrack release. Maybe we could just do it for obvious ones, like Final Fantasy XII as people say, though I've never played it so I wouldn't personally know.

Well, I wouldn't know for this one either (wow, 1993, I haven't ever heard of this).

[Blitz Lunar]

granted that this and syvalion super famicom game music are both "the original vision" rather than arranged after the fact - at least that's how it appears. so the in-game versions are reduced. though i get the impression that with at least a couple of these tracks they were extended especially for the sake of an album release. i guess i don't understand why that needs to be separate from arrangement... arrangement by itself explains to visitors that the music is different to how it is in-game, and the notes can be used to further explain the nature of arrangement. the only reason i see to separate is to make it DB searchable. revamp seems a confusing word too, never seen it used in earnest on any other sites. hah, guess i shouldn't have totally avoided the remaster discussion. :P

[Giga_Force]

Did anyone like the soundtrack from Psykosonik? I thought it was pretty good but not matching the awesome of Sakimoto and Hayato Matsuo.

[bombman]

Originally Posted by Cedille

This album contains Sakimoto's original intention, which was later sequenced on the SPC sound chip,

citation needed

[Alcahest]

Originally Posted by bombman

citation needed

Hard to quote common sense.
This album contains the original composition, on superior hardware (original intention), that was then ported (sequenced) for the SPC.

[bombman]

"common sense" is not a source

unless youre republican

[Raizen1984]

Originally Posted by Alcahest

Hard to quote common sense.
This album contains the original composition, on superior hardware (original intention), that was then ported (sequenced) for the SPC.

How is this common sense?

Sakimoto was hired to create music for this SNES game. Common sense would denote that the SNES sound chip is the "original intention" because it was "intended" for that sound source.

[Alcahest]

No, it's 2 different things; where the music ends up being used is another matter.
Ultimately he composed on the superior hardware first, his original vision for the music, that was then ported to SPC.

Due to tech constraints the SPC version is adapted/downgraded, but if the SFC had been able to stream music, we'd have had the original superior hardware version streamed, unaltered.

That's common sense.

[razakin]

Why are you guys still arguing about this, it's not like this is the only Sakimoto album where his compositions have been ported to the sound chip or something like that etc. (FF Tactics Advance and FF XII for instance)

[Alcahest]

Not sure man, it doesn't seem obvious to them..

[Raizen1984]

Originally Posted by Alcahest

Not sure man, it doesn't seem obvious to them..

Oh, fuck you. Don't refer to me in the third person like I can't read what you're writing.

I actually was under the impression there was some mention in the liner notes (or maybe in an interview) that suggests these are elaborate demos created before the fact. Believe it or not, not every composer created game music in this way back then. Some of them actually wrote the notes in machine code, one by one, for playback on the console. Manami Matsumae and Takashi Tateishi did just that for the scores to Mega Man 1 and 2.

Sakimoto himself is a gifted sound programmer and has ported other artists work himself on the Genesis.

And no, just because there are examples of this kind of thing in the past from the same artist doesn't mean it's true in every instance. Common Sense and Reasoning by association are not mutually exclusive terms, especially in regards to how music is created.

[dancey]

You do know that he was referring to you in the third person because he was responding to a question written about you, not by you? If you don't want to believe the evidence presented thus far, don't, but don't go into a tirade when you don't like what's been presented.

[Alcahest]

Oh, fuck you. Don't refer to me in the third person like I can't read what you're writing.

.. overreacting much? see dancey's reply.

Believe it or not, not every composer created game music in this way back then. Some of them actually wrote the notes in machine code, one by one, for playback on the console.

no shit.

Sakimoto himself is a gifted sound programmer and has ported other artists work himself on the Genesis.

ported

And no, just because there are examples of this kind of thing in the past from the same artist doesn't mean it's true in every instance.

certainly a possibility, but less likely to be factual versus the first vision/intention argument in this specific case.

[bombman]

Originally Posted by dancey

You do know that he was referring to you in the third person because he was responding to a question written about you, not by you? If you don't want to believe the evidence presented thus far, don't, but don't go into a tirade when you don't like what's been presented.

what evidence lol

[Dag]

From the liner notes I gather at least M05 and M07 were arranged for this album.

Fight!

[bombman]

Originally Posted by Dag

From the liner notes I gather at least M05 and M07 were arranged for this album.

Fight!

spoilers: they all were

[Raizen1984]

Originally Posted by bombman

what evidence lol

Exactly. Nothing but assumptions.