KWCD-1009: Dead or Alive 4 Original Sound Trax

[Hellacia]

This soundtrack mysteriously has two barcodes?

4948722206699 - Play-Asia and Amazon.co.jp have this one, and it has plenty of results on Google Images and Google Search.
4960677700169 - Otaku.com has this one, but no image results on Google Images, and very few results on Google Search.

I submitted the second one, but I guess it's the first. I just wonder where the second one comes from.

Also why does this soundtrack have to start at $99 man, I love this soundtrack ;__;

[transitus]

In Tsutaya can see both here and here and do not see a difference

[Hellacia]

Yeah, I get Tsutaya results for both barcodes on Google Search. It's really pretty confusing, isn't it? The second one seems like a mistake, because there's far less results for it, but I can't tell for sure because I can't see a picture of the barcode on the slipcase.

[Phonograph]

actually, (edit: almost) all wake up releases have two jan codes, it's not errors
it's just related to the fact there are two makers per release

4948722* should be the priority
4960677* haven't 3 releases

[Hellacia]

What do you mean by "haven't 3 releases"?

And I didn't know that about Wake Up releases... are both the barcodes present on the material? I own Dead or Alive 3 and it has one barcode on it. Does it have another I just can't see, or is it one of the few cases you had to edit your post for?

[SimonJXZ]

I like this soundtrack too.

Are you familiar with Blazed Up Melpomene? It has the same phrase from the second concerto, third movement of Vivaldi's Four Seasons (the end of "Summer"), except instead of being in G minor it's in B-flat minor. Anyway, I've always liked that song, and Helena's themes in general. The Blazed Up Melpomene Remix, and Blood Tie from Dead or Alive 3, are among some of my more enjoyed Dead or Alive songs.

[Hellacia]

I love that song, but I didn't know that. But then, I'm not much of a classical music buff. I like it and can recognize a few of them here and there, but I didn't know that anything from Dead or Alive "sampled" Vivaldi, so to speak. Interesting.

Also I don't know anything about the games, because I've never played them (never owned an XBOX), but the songs you named are all good ones in my book, so I guess Helena's music is alright with me I really like Moonlit Lady from this soundtrack, whenever I come back around to it, I always end up listening to it (at least) twice. And from DoA3, I'd have to say Mayflower is awesome. Not sure if those are the same person's theme, but... yeah. Of course I could list a bunch more I like from either soundtrack, especially this one

[SimonJXZ]

The full movement was also used in Ninety-Nine Nights (track 8, the ETERNAL MIX). Another XBOX game... but at any rate, I guess that particular piece of music makes for some pretty epic video game BGM.

[Phonograph]

Originally Posted by Hellacia

What do you mean by "haven't 3 releases"?

And I didn't know that about Wake Up releases... are both the barcodes present on the material? I own Dead or Alive 3 and it has one barcode on it. Does it have another I just can't see, or is it one of the few cases you had to edit your post for?

KWCD-1002, KWCD-1003, KWCD-2003 haven't been released with those 4960677* jan codes
there is a thing you must know about jan codes, it's one jan code per release
a same product can't have two,three,etc. jan codes anywhere on it
so, two jan codes = two releases, even if it's for the same products

I tried to find if there are differences but apparently those are the same or some details aren't said on sites, I don't know
and I'm not sure it deserves to use the "add a child album" option just for that

[Hellacia]

Originally Posted by SimonJXZ

Another XBOX game...

Another game I haven't played!

Phonograph: So there is a version of the Dead or Alive 3 Original Sound Trax out there with a different barcode number on it? That's... very strange. And what do you mean there are two makers per release? Who else makes one?

[Phonograph]

by maker, I mean manufacturer
if I'm not wrong, it's the two same releases but made by different manufacturers

[Hellacia]

Where did you find the information about Wake Up? Was it a Japanese site? I can't find jack in English, which, sadly, does not surprise me. 'Twould be an interesting read, for sure.

[Phonograph]

Originally Posted by Hellacia

Where did you find the information about Wake Up? Was it a Japanese site? I can't find jack in English, which, sadly, does not surprise me. 'Twould be an interesting read, for sure.

just info collecting and sorta analyzing

perso, I think 60677 is the maker code of Wake Up itself in the sense they wanted to release their own stuff by themselves but that like they were a little structure they still needed a bigger distribution structure in case they couldn't release in time or something
since 48722 is the maker code of Daiki Sounds, that'll make sense (they distributed the 16 Wake Up releases)

if I think 60677 is the personal maker code of Wake Up it's because their 16 releases have 16 product code numbers (from 70001 to 70016)
(edit: except 3 jan codes, no internet result for those)

little info, JAN codes (13 digits) are divided in 4 parts:
1/ for the country code (45 and 49, if the barcode doesn't start by that so it's not japanese)
2/ for the maker code (DSRI provides this code to member companies)
3/ for product/item code (chosen by the label or distributor)
4/ for the check digit (calculated from first 12 digits)

about 2/ and 3/ that code varies, either 5-5 digits (before 2001.1) or 7-3 digits (after 2001.1)
so theorically, a company can have 100000 or 1000 different products (edit: per maker code bought)

[transitus]

Oh, thanks for the info about JAN codes, are very useful.

[Hellacia]

I already knew that about barcode numbers, and I'm trying hard to figure out how that helps me here, just like I'm trying hard to figure out how you know Daiki Sound distributed these soundtracks. I find no relationship between Daiki Sound and WAKE UP anywhere. Also, even if they did, why would that give the soundtracks a second barcode number? There are tons of instances where one company published it but another company distributed/licensed it, and yet those soundtracks don't have multiple barcode numbers.

I'm looking for any mention of Daiki Sound (or ダイキサウンド株式会社 rather) on WAKE UP releases, and I'm hard-pressed to find one. The fact that you've deciphered what looks like incorrect barcode numbers to be Daiki Sound isn't really convincing me that Daiki Sound published WAKE UP's stuff. The incorrect barcode numbers could have pointed to any company, it just happens to point to Daiki Sound. If you have some real proof that Daiki Sound is involved, other than "info collecting and sorta analyzing", then that would be really nice. I can come to any conclusion about barcode numbers as well, doesn't mean my analysis is right.

[Phonograph]

a lot of jap shops have Daiki as publisher/distributor for those 4948722 jan codes
I'm pretty surprised you've found nothing

huh deciphered what looks like incorrect barcode numbers? where did I say it's incorrect barcodes?
maybe you misunderstood me when I've said a same release can't have two barcodes
not sure if it's that but I'm gonna rephrase it (tell me if it's something else)
1 barcode = 1 cd release
2 different barcodes = 2 different cd releases (in that case, it's the same cd release but manufactured by two different companies -wake up made one and daiki made another)

(example I gave was a bad example actually, if you read it, forget)

[SimonJXZ]

The discussion about Daiki Sound's involvement in these soundtracks is a pretty interesting one. In particular, I know that the Dead or Alive Ultimate Original Sound Trax has been linked to Daiki Sound by CDJapan with a Daiki Sound EAN, and to Wake Up by Play-Asia with a Wake Up EAN. In our entry here at VGMdb, the Dead or Alive Ultimate Original Sound Trax is listed with the Daiki Sound EAN code in the entry info, not the Wake Up EAN code, while other Wake Up soundtracks have been listed with the Wake Up EAN. It's definitely a confusing matter.

The scans for the Dead or Alive 3 Original Sound Trax show the Wake Up EAN, not the Daiki Sound EAN, but Daiki Sound may still be involved... or there may just be some serious misunderstanding with the Wake Up EAN numbers. It's hard to say whether or not to add Daiki Sound as a distributor in the entry data for Wake Up releases, but at the very least, we should probably use the Wake Up EAN numbers as they're probably the numbers more closely related to the product.

Also, forgive me for sidetracking the discussion, but should we add Antonin Vivaldi as a featured composer for the soundtracks that contain Blazed Up Melpomene? Johann Strauss II was added to DoA3's entry for the arranged portion of his Blue Danube in the song Start in Life, so perhaps we should do the same for the Four Seasons phrase that was borrowed as well.

Best of luck in determining whether or not Daiki Sound was actually involved in the distribution of Wake Up's soundtrack releases, or if it's just error. With the data we have right now, it's really too hard to say either way in my opinion.

[Hellacia]

I didn't say you said they are incorrect barcode numbers, Phonograph. *I* am saying that they *look* like incorrect barcode numbers. And like I asked earlier: there is essentially two different "versions" of each soundtrack, with the difference being the barcode number, right? That's what it would mean if Daiki Sound has one barcode number, and Wake Up has another, both on the same soundtrack - that they are two different releases but not two different soundtracks.

Simon: At one point in time I went back through VGMdb's first few hundred entries and added shop links for Play-Asia and CDJapan that were missing from our pages (whether they were out of print or not, and some weren't). It seems that somehow I missed that one, because it isn't in our entry, and that really pisses me off because I thought I had been so thorough. Anyway, thanks for the interesting info, but like you said, we don't have enough information to confirm that Daiki Sound created a separate version of each soundtrack yet. Unfortunately, whoever did the scans for DoA Ultimate didn't bother to include the slipcase top/bottom/side (which I've found are by far the most ignored part of any soundtrack when doing scans, yet a very important one for these reasons), so we can't check the barcode on that one. But, I have a feeling it would just be the Wake Up barcode and wouldn't confirm anything anyway.

As for Vivaldi's credit, I wouldn't think that using such a short part of a song warrants crediting a composer for it, but Efendija seemed to think it was a good enough reason to do it for DoA3, so if we think it's a good enough reason here too, you can add him as a composer and I can mark the featured box. Or, I can add him if you don't feel like it. Or, someone else can do it altogether. Whatever

[Phonograph]

bah you see you got it, not that hard =)
note that, like Daiki Sound is a distributor of independent labels, it's not surprising if wake up is distributed by daiki according to shops even if it's not mentioned on obi/back

but it's not the first time there is no mention of a distributor that is known
example: QECB-1 has king records as a distributor written on the obi but QECB-15 has no distributor mentioned on the obi
however both have the King Records maker code (88003)

[Phonograph]

knowing that, JAN codes could be updated and "distributed by Tecmo" added (maybe)

KWCD-1001 4960677700015 -- KWCD-2001 4960677700053
KWCD-1002 4960677700022 -- KWCD-2002 4960677700060
KWCD-1003 4960677700039 -- KWCD-2003 4960677700077
KWCD-1004 4960677700046 -- KWCD-2004 4960677700084
KWCD-1005 4960677700107 -- KWCD-2005 4960677700091
KWCD-1006 4960677700138 -- KWCD-2006 4960677700114
KWCD-1007 4960677700145 -- KWCD-2007 4960677700121
KWCD-1008 4960677700152
KWCD-1009 4960677700169

[Hellacia]

Originally Posted by Phonograph

QECB-1 has king records as a distributor written on the obi but QECB-15 has no distributor mentioned on the obi
however both have the King Records maker code (88003)

Okay, but that's different because b-green isn't using their own barcode then, they're using the King Records barcode. Wake Up is not using the Daiki Sound barcode, so it's much less obvious than your example. If the Daiki Sound barcode was present on every Wake Up release, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. The discussion is two different barcodes. At any rate, I really don't care what we do regarding adding Daiki Sound as a distributor in parentheses for Wake Up soundtracks. I don't care to make the judgment of "Oh, we have enough evidence of it" or not.

What I would like to know, though, is if we should add Vivaldi as a composer here. Adding Vivaldi to this (and adding Strauss to DoA3) seems a little overboard... it's not like an entire song of theirs was used, it's a very small part. Honestly, that's like crediting Koji Kondo in Donkey Kong Country 3 because some tiny-ass part of Peach's Castle from Super Mario 64 was in the Wrinkly 64 song. It's a very small part of a song in the midst of an otherwise completely original song, it's pretty much literally sampling by definition.

[SimonJXZ]

Well, there's no "pretty much" about it. It is sampling, by definition, as you said. But the case for Start in Life is a little trickier than that. It uses a fairly big portion of Blue Danube - 40 seconds, which is more than half the length of Start in Life itself - and the portion used, although heavily arranged, is not merely sampled (that is, it's not "put on top of" original music). It is a section of Blue Danube, no question about it. That means Start in Life is less original music than it is Blue Danube. I'm just not sure on the policy regarding how much of a composer's work needs to be used in a song before we consider him a featured composer. It's not like using material from sampling libraries, which, as far as I know, is material intended to be used in other people's compositions. Vivaldi wrote a full original song meant to stand on its own. A part of it, however small, is used in a song here.

I'm taking no offense to your rejection of the notion to add him. If it's not enough to include him in the credits, I couldn't care less.

[Hellacia]

If we're going to bring up VGMdb policy, then I'm as lost as you are There are policies and rules here, for sure, but there are also many cases where there aren't, simply because... nobody has come up with one. It's not a frequent enough issue, or people just haven't gotten around to fleshing it out. Hell, we still argue about how to write album titles from time to time, and probably always will, because... people are different. So, I don't know about whether or not to add Vivaldi to this. I wouldn't, but maybe a Staff Member or Admin will come in here and say we definitely should. *shrug* I'll wait for somebody with some more authority to speak on the matter.

[Phonograph]

Originally Posted by Hellacia

Okay, but that's different because b-green isn't using their own barcode then, they're using the King Records barcode. Wake Up is not using the Daiki Sound barcode, so it's much less obvious than your example. If the Daiki Sound barcode was present on every Wake Up release, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. The discussion is two different barcodes. At any rate, I really don't care what we do regarding adding Daiki Sound as a distributor in parentheses for Wake Up soundtracks. I don't care to make the judgment of "Oh, we have enough evidence of it" or not.

...

after some more searches, I discovered that 4960677 isn't the maker code of wake up but the one of tecmo, all tecmo games have it
since wake up is the music label of tecmo

however that label is a bit like digicube, that's to say they released tecmo game soundtracks but also from other game companies (it's on the official wake up page)
even if it's atypical, wake up used tecmo and daiki in order to release their stuff (proof of barcodes)
believe it or not believe it, it's not my fault if you don't want to understand


edit: actually, I take back what I've said about the fact tecmo probably didn't release 3 of their releases
I just checked the back of KWCD-1002 and it has the tecmo JAN code whereas google returns no result for 4960677700022
so, I changed my mind about using Daiki Sound barcodes, tecmo/wake up ones should be used (updated a previous post)

[Efendija]

Oh shit Strauss / Vivaldi discussion... We do keep track of obvious use of classical pieces. Why wouldn't the classical composers deserve credit? Blazed Up Melpomene starts with (and uses throughout the track - of course not all the time)... The Four Seasons, Concert no. 2 - Summer, movement 3, as SimonJXZ already said... I fucking knew it sounded familiar lol
imho, Vivaldi's piece isn't far from being the base of Blaze Up Melpomene.

[Hellacia]

As Simon pointed out, Strauss deserves credit on DoA3. But, I feel like if we credit Vivaldi on DoA4, then let's go over to Nisto's sampled music thread and just start crediting every single one of those sources in soundtracks that used them, because why shouldn't THEY get credit. Four Seasons is sampled in this soundtrack, it just is. Look, in Nisto's thread, there was a mention of a song called BARD from Sonic Dive, which samples a bunch of stuff from Spectrasonics: Symphony of Voices. But the way it samples the short vocal snippets creates a melody, and that melody is actually the song. So, you could argue that BARD isn't an original work because even its original material was composed from a string of samples. So now isn't Spectrasonics the featured composer? If no, then Vivaldi isn't either, because he actually did less in Blazed Up Melpomene. Blazed Up Melpomene just uses a phrase of his in the background of what is actually original material, melody included.

That's just my point of view, of course, if we're going to distinguish from composers and sample libraries like Simon said, then okay. I just don't think that sample libraries don't have composers. They do, and if we're going to credit sampling from one composer's work, we should credit sampling from another's.

[Efendija]

Sure the libraries have composers, but sample libraries are completely different. Their intended use and classical pieces can't be compared. An original (yep, stand alone) piece of music written some 300 years ago isn't really the same as modern sample libraries which are being sold/licensed practically as a helper material and that's their sole purpose.

Besides, we wouldn't be having this talk if Tecmo had put Vivaldi in the freakin' booklet. (in that case nobody would ever question it, right?)

[Hellacia]

I'm not questioning whether or not it's Vivaldi, I'm questioning whether or not we should credit him. But if you want to make the distinction between sample libraries and other works, then I guess we'll credit Vivaldi.