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  #31  
Old Feb 9, 2010, 12:18 PM
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Liontamer Liontamer is offline
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Haha, I can assure you I've been extremely busy with life. SS has it right when he said if anything's more of a peripheral project or inquiry, we have a LOT of stuff unwillingly fall by the wayside. (Thanks for vouching for us there, SS. I'll try to touch base on our stuff too. :-)

I've been pretty inactive here and have scaled back my work at OC ReMix due to being so busy. Last September was the first time, after 5 1/2 years and 3,000 straight submissions, that I haven't been able to vote on every submission we receive. Hence being called out on January 21st and not even seeing it or responding until now.

I'll reply more later, but I've seen a lot of bad faith from quentin (no worries, I'm not personally offended, just amused), as well as several wrong assumptions, including that we're making some serious coin at OC ReMix. :-) The notion that we're hiding that we're making serious bank is awesome, but it ain't happening. :-D I'd definitely say do not sink money into anything. That's not how we or anyone else has done it.
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  #32  
Old Feb 9, 2010, 01:49 PM
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quintin3265 quintin3265 is offline
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I wanted to point out that I never stated that Overclocked ReMix makes money. I stated that some sites do seem interested more in profit than in sharing music, but I did not say that Overclocked ReMix is one of them. This assumption could be seen as an example of bad faith.

But as to bad faith, there seems to be enough of that around the community. Posting almost anything to the Shizz results in a nearly instantaneous display of bad faith. When seifer created remixed.vg, he was basically ridiculed into being banned, and in turn he saw the release of remixSite as some sort of joke aimed at him. Private messages at community websites to musicians are often ignored, and I heard that people assumed that KiddCabbage would not be paid the grand prize for Composition Combat. Some people post at VGMdb or at the Shizz solely because they hate people at Overclocked ReMix and want the site to suffer.

I suggest that bad faith had its origins half a decade ago because of arguments over song removal from sites. Whoever was at fault, artist rights are what led to the splintering of various "factions," and everyone now is hesitant to contribute work because it might be "taken advantage of" by someone else. Memories are long-lasting and rumors spread. There are people who would not submit songs to the last compo because they thought the songs were going to be used in a game without payment. When new sites sprout up, they're seen as attempting to gather music to exploit. Now, people have forgotten what the initial arguments were about and simply continue bickering with each other in various forums about minor things unrelated to music. This disagreement between you and I, in which I assert we are both at fault, is just another example of being caught up in the precedent.

I don't know how to change the issue of bad faith now that it has become entrenched, but this is the core issue with the community. If there were some step that could be taken to stop the cycle of distrust between everyone, then the video game music community would become a force to be reckoned with.



[QUOTE=Liontamer;15664]Haha, I can assure you I've been extremely busy with life. SS has it right when he said if anything'
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Last edited by quintin3265; Feb 9, 2010 at 02:03 PM.
  #33  
Old Feb 9, 2010, 02:23 PM
djpretzel djpretzel is offline
 
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Originally Posted by quintin3265 View Post
I don't know how to change the issue of bad faith now that it has become entrenched, but this is the core issue with the community. If there were some step that could be taken to stop the cycle of distrust between everyone, then the video game music community would become a force to be reckoned with.
I'll give you a hint: You won't address issues of bad faith by vaguely accusing some sites of being profit-minded, by calling people hypocritical, or by saying you've "lost all respect" for myself or others.

If that wasn't abundantly obvious.

Just because you're not getting as much traffic as you think you should be doesn't mean there's a fundamental flaw with the community or that anything is "entrenched". Come to MAGFest... you'll see that now, more than ever, the exact opposite is true. If my failing to respond to your PM ruffles your feathers that much, you're in this for all the wrong reasons. People fail to respond to my emails all the time; I never interpret that as endemic, "entrenched" issues with the community, I basically just figure they don't have the time, or aren't interested. To assume otherwise would be to inflate my own ego - "How DARE you not respond to me! Bad faith!" - and frankly, doesn't the Internet have enough of that?

You can't play it both ways. You're here pointing fingers, citing hypocrisy, making vague assertions that some folks are in it for the money, and whining about lack of response to private messages on forums (seriously?), and at the *same time* you're claiming the moral high ground and saying you wish you could "fix" these inherent core issues & distrust you see with the community.

Forgive me, but it's a painful paradox to observe.
  #34  
Old Feb 9, 2010, 02:38 PM
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i dont want step on toes here, but you guys have ignored him. thats the big thing. he sent feelers out all over the community to tons of people. everybody ignored them. hes got a right to be a lil upset about that. you say you put ten years of work into ocr. your ten years worth of work in your mind and what you have given to the community is overshadowed in my eyes when you ignore people in the community that try and combine their efforts like steve tried to do what he wanted to do and what he thought was right.

i dont even know what he was asking fully in specifics, but when someone whos starting a site writes promotional email and takes time to do it and it gets ignored, i donno. personally it would make me mad. this is steve's forum to voice his concerns. you dont have a right to say he's stirring up dirt when he's just telling the truth and you dont like that its on the internet to see. thats the mistakes you've always made with your dealing with people in every skirmish ive seen you be in over the years, the fights with brendan, the fights with virt, everybody. you're too quick to write anybody or anything off.

you must have cared to read this when i brought it to your attention. you cared even more to reply instead of keeping it in and accepting it. you wrote a pretty cocky assy reply, and im not upset at that, im upset at you having simply ignored his reaching out to begin with after all this time and then you have the gall to come here and say this as the founder of ocr after i asked you to simply read. community. you dont speak of pride for community, you speak from a derision of your own integrity that you dont even see in yourself that you show others, and it makes them take you less seriously and makes your own work cornier and cornier to me.

i am honestly a little bit let down in you that you'd come here and accuse him of stirring up shit when it took how long now? over a year to even get you to acknowledge that he exists? i had to get with you and say 'hey you might want to read this'. i didnt even say you should reply. that isnt perpetuating the dirt i dont think. and hey, what do i know. maybe you really didnt see his messages.

he has had absolutely no help from within this community from anybody other than myself and another toad, and everybody else within the community, just like how you did, told him he was doing something wrong. that isnt community, thats some people ignoring another person who has the same goal they do, and why? because they dont want to consolidate effort? i donno, i really dont know.

you finally acknowledge steve's hard work and you preface it with 'ive worked on ocremix for over yen years of my life'. but how much of that work did you have help with? and how many people were actually willing to help you? that was your blessing in your being able to say now 'i did this', and i know you have a lot of pride in ocr and its honestly brought me around to the community, the longevity of it. now yure coming here and talking up your credibility like its something you built alone. but conversely, steve has had no real outside help except from me, who writes and releases music and does publication work and production work on top of helping my elderly parents and i still make that time to help him when its legitimately become a full time thing for me. but that hard work and responsibility, that falls squarely on my shoulders and i dont go around making posts about how awesome i am and then insulting other people like you did this morning. i simply give people the love and respect that i'd want given to me. you gave a bunch of negi vibes that i guess you had pent up towards steve. great.

i have so much music on his site because i believe in it. id have music on ocr im sure if i didnt feel like it was too much of a challenge to find acceptance in two people and have them be able to say whether it's hosted there. i simply havent submitted since 2003.

regardless of what steve might or might not be most concerned with out of remixsite, its only insult after the injury any sort of prophetic opinion you can give him. i wont ever insult what you've built in ocr, i will only say that in my work i can lay claim on tss and say it's my and housethegrate and ashanes work from 1997 until 2007 and forevermore now when i formed a full band, and it was more than uphilll to get where i went. but all the while i tried to help people out, answered every email, filled every order, everything.

i guess what im trying to say without starting a big fiasco or an argument with you is this; you guys work hard with ocr, but if you are going to operate with a modicum of pride for yourselves personally what you do and have it appear to be convincing to people like me or any other person in the community, you're gonna have to start reaching out within the community more. i see what you've done with ocr, i believe in it. but you havent ever showed me that you cared about it reaching its potential and its always been 'were trying to' or 'were doing'. whats been done is a lot of segregation due to the way you act and head overclocked remix.

i and others see community at ocr in terms of the musical output and the appreciation startin to slip a lil and its startin at the people at the top acting historically with their actions and words. your responses both were both all the same stuff you've said five years ago with little or no gravity in what i see because theres no positive suggestion in any of it, just insult on top of steves injury.

ive said my piece, i've tried with as little pushing and prodding to get you guys to just take a look at what steves been trying to do and its like he gets returned with opinions that what he's wanting to do isnt worthwhile from everybody because he doesnt know how to do things. if what he was trying to do wasnt worthwhile, would i spend any of my time helping him? you can plead ignorance or not knowing he's doing it, but i've told both you and larry what he's been doing over the months. ive talked to larry more in private about remixsite than i have you but still. i hope you guys arent personally offended, but i felt like laying it on the line here.

if you guys want to help him the way ive tried to for a long time, we'd appreciate it. otherwise, no further conversation or input is necessary here or no followups or anything. i doubt i'll personally be checking out this thread again unless someone msg's me and tells me they wrote a different kind of reply then the stuff i've seen from every single person who's replied here. sorry for lettin all this out, i really apologize. but it had to be said.
  #35  
Old Feb 9, 2010, 03:00 PM
BahamutWC BahamutWC is offline
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I'm just going to put it like this since the point Dave made doesn't seem to be getting through.

Imagine you were busy & maximizing your time promoting an album, and someone yells at you vague accusations as if it was a crime against humanity for not responding/helping them in promoting their album (i.e. missing one PM or email), then try to guilt trip you into helping him/her, even if they had absolutely nothing to do with what you have been promoting.

Is that sense of entitlement good treatment of others, and encouraging for others to help you out?
  #36  
Old Feb 9, 2010, 03:06 PM
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OK, really, Shawn? I love your music, but you're saying that because Dave didn't answer a single PM, his ten years of work on OCR don't count? Dave doesn't even answer PMs/IMs/emails from the site staff half the time. It's not something to take personally. He runs and maintains a site that gets hundreds of thousands of visitors per month and which is partnered with VGL, Capcom, Sega, etc. Even setting aside all the external communication, there is a massive amount of internal communication that goes on. The public doesn't see even 1/10 of the stuff that we talk about internally, all of which requires Dave's time.

Yet instead of thinking "hmm, he's probably just busy, that must be why I didn't get a response", you guys jump to the worst conclusion, that he's an elitist asshole intentionally ignoring people that want to help, all because.... uh, what was the reasoning behind that? Oh yeah, he's making millions of dollars off the site. Obviously.

Speaking of this "bad faith" stuff, it's bullshit. The drama that happened 9 years ago, and which spawned VGmix, is dead and gone. It has BEEN dead and gone. Jake posts on OCR and contributes to OCR projects, along with many people from the VGmix community. OCReMixers participated on VGmix 2, when it was around. The Shizz? OCR participates in DoD all the time, shizzies post on OCR and participate in our projects, etc. OneUp Studios? We're doing a collaboration album as we speak with people that 8 years ago probably would have never considered it. OCR has an official presence at MAGfest (and has had one for.. 5 years now?) Everyone in the community has grown up. Quintin has his history wrong.

I especially don't understand the accusation that Dave isn't somehow appreciate of help he's received, but you're also grossly underestimating how much time he's spent by himself. Nobody has ever helped him with the most tedious work involved with the site, the actual coding and design, and I can attest that he puts a great deal of time to it (and, I might add, rarely if ever gets thanked.) I've been contributing to the site for years, as a judge, as a panelist at events, as a mod, etc. I can guarantee that every other person on the site staff would agree that he's NEVER been unappreciative of our help. If anything he's the first person to want to volunteer his OWN time to help promote someone in the community doing something special.

In short, these vague, passive-aggressive rants are doing nothing but digging remixSite deeper and painting its staff as petty, ignorant, and prone to tantrums. If you really want to help yourselves out, you might want to listen to Dave and apologize to him (and the rest of the OCR staff), stop painting yourselves as "victims" of the remix community, and stop throwing out false accusations.
  #37  
Old Feb 9, 2010, 04:08 PM
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Guys, where's the love man?

And this is coming from total outsider of the whole deal, quintin, just keep building up your site especially if you're doing it for the music and shit, don't care about pageviews. Care about the music. That's the important thing in here.

Also, as people have said, you can't except all the people to have the time to read pms/mails, especially if they're running sites like ocremix.

Guys, just get into a sauna and love each other, and make some great music for me to listen. Like now.
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  #38  
Old Feb 9, 2010, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Razakin View Post
Guys, just get into a sauna and love each other, and make some great music for me to listen. Like now.
*gets into the sauna with Razakin*
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  #39  
Old Feb 9, 2010, 05:23 PM
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bahamut, what you said was just a bad analogy and i dont know how you draw a distinction like that in your mind. all i can say about that is that for me, that particular scenario wouldnt ever happen and leave it at that. i donno if you got what i wrote really.


to clarify a few things and as i already said in the last message, there is nobody at all helping steve other than me. there is no remixsite 'staff' other than steve. i am not a staff member, at one point i was going to be a staff member but when we couldnt come to contractual terms i bowed out of any of that. i honestly did not want to be staff for his or any site because i dont want to get mixed up with this kind of thing, the politics, the decisions that have to be made. but why do you think that remixsite are the victims in this? are there actually 'victims'? i dont see that..all i see is people pointing the finger saying 'you need to stop whining about how people arent helping you and umm' without really giving any constructive ideas to the guy, all but inferring that he should give up. thats when people should just straight up not say anything at all, because it makes whoever is doing the sayin look equally as bad as the one complaining.

not only is it mean, it makes me a little bit nervous and makes my stomach hurt to think that theres not enough community in the community to give a few posi suggestions and not just hatefulness.

yes, i guess maybe you guys see it as steves thinking and mindset are making himself and his site out to be a victim or maybe you dont think that his mindset in all of it has all but collapsed his hope in doing it, so in either case theres really nothing for anybody to 'dig' in or out of. he spoke some truth. i am a fairly impartial onlooker in all of this because ive had nothing to lose or gain in any of it and from both sides of the coin i can see this and agree and disagree with certain aspects of all of it.

i have done what i can for remixsite as passively as well as sincerely as possible, and ive told steve when i can or cant make an obligation to the site that i dont think is right for _me_. dont be so quick to forget or turn a blind eye to what youve seen and what you can see in life. i really have no anger or frustration personally towards dave or anybody at ocr. but i felt like i had to point out this thread, really i am just let down that there couldnt or maybe cant be a convergence of the effort everybodys put forth so that this can grow as much as it has the potential to.

im certainly not saying that dave didnt acknowledge anybody thats ever wrote him or tried to correspond, and im sure that hes answered tons more than he's ignored, but he and larry didnt reply to any of steves attempts at correspondence and i have told him and larry both privately that steve has been trying to get in touch with him before. everything that could be done to simply make communication happened, and thats what has made steve so frustrated with the situation. if you dont like that and how it happened and how its been made light of here now, thats cool. but keep in mind that unlike steve, i have a clear knowledge of ocr's history and the stuff thats happened over the years and anybody can say what they want, but i know whats happened and what hasnt. notice i havent and wont say a single utterance about money. im strictly talking about how people are being treated.

i certainly didnt say any of dave's work didnt matter either, it's not that. the very fact that you'd admit publically that he ignores your pm's when you are staff is some needtoknow basis information that nobody even questioned and makes ocr look less bad on top of the crappy stuff thats been said. my personal opinion is that if you dont want your plans at ocr continue to take as long to come together as they do then you need to start improving your communication over because real lucrative opportunities happen to everybody all the time and if you guys dont improve your communication skills and stop acting like your status quo is as complacent as you say it is. it isnt. not to me. and this is kind of what this is all about, is it not? you're admitting that he sometimes lets things slip by, but when i tell you that in my history of what i do that i have never let anything like that slip then i guess it does indeed comes off as standoffish and i can understand that, and i didnt mean for it to be that way. i wanted it to be an example of how what you're saying and what dave is doing are not the same things. i can admit and be apologetic without letting the frustration out, maybe steve isnt so lucky.

one last thing before i go, i absoltely didnt say he wasnt appreciative of the help he receives either, what i said is that he is taking a little too much credit for the sum of the whole of the work. did he not do that in this thread? that isnt an accusation. its right there in writing. he got real mean towards steve when he didnt need to even reply, and/or it could have been an email to steve privately if he had something to say to him now. but i guess maybe he wanted to say that publically to him? i really dont know man.

if it was how you were saying it is...well you wouldnt be saying in the same breath that he ignores the staff's attempts at communication. its hard to take whats said here at face value.
  #40  
Old Feb 9, 2010, 05:38 PM
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Shawn, why exactly would you expect anyone on the OCR staff to even dream of helping remixSite after being personally attacked and falsely accused? Nobody on the OCR staff has done anything to imply that remixSite is a bad idea, should be shut down, or whatever. There has been 0 bad intention from our side, though the same can't be said of Quintin.

As far as I can tell the only thing we did was let Quintin's attempt at communication fall by the wayside. And as far as I can tell, you're STILL ascribing malice to this when there was none. Again you really have no idea how busy things have been staff-side at OCR. We've undergone some fairly major changes recently and there's a giant project in the works that has taken years to develop. Larry, normally our point person for communication, got a full time job last year which has reduced his available time for OCR by a huge amount. People like me have had to step down from the panel due to life changes. The list goes on.

What I'm trying to tell you is very simple. OCR's staff has VERY limited time, especially Dave. Our internal communication is fine; when I said Dave doesn't respond to stuff from us, all I meant was that we're often throwing a hundred ideas at a time at him, and he can't possibly deal with every one. For example, in the last two weeks we've been discussing and coordinating:

* The release of the upcoming DKC 2 project (takes a ton of effort + time)
* New project guidelines and forums, the creation of a project moderation team
* The evaluation of the upcoming Teen Agent project and its release
* Promotion of a new sample library on the front page
* A Sega-sponsored contest we're running
* A project being run by Anso (can't say more)
* The secret project mentioned earlier which has taken years
* Mass Effect 2 composer interviews
* Evaluating new potential judges, creating a test batch, sending them out, analyzing their test votes
* Forum modifications and improvements such as the addition of blogs

And this is honestly just off the top of my head. Dave has to be involved with EVERY one of those things. Do you understand now why it's not surprising if emails or PMs get sent and not responded to?
  #41  
Old Feb 9, 2010, 06:22 PM
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i never said i didnt understand anything, and really its immaterial what i understand and dont. my mind wont be changed of how ive seen people, alot of people, treat the remixsite situation because ive seen most of it, the words and the feelings and whatever else. i wouldnt TREAT a person that way. whats moreover is that i dont even NEED to necessarily understand any of this, because ive already said i dont have an opinion one way or another about remixsite or ocr anymore, they both have their shortcomings that are not ever going to be fixed or changed unless some serious consideration goes into all of it. i have fairly reserved feelings about this scene that people dont need to know about, but from a standpoint of how steve has been treated by the community as a whole, i can say that its kinda wack.

when dave and larry scoffed in pm to me initially about remixsite when i mentioned it, that is what is surprising to me... you and dave and larry saying the opposite of what actually has been said privately here in public when different stuff was said to me in private.. thats not how people should treat one another. i make time for people no matter what because ive had to do crazy shit like people's lives and get them to hospitals via the computer.

you say your staff at ocr has dwindled, then the remaining staff's time they have to offer has dwindled down too, right? you making reparations to bring new people in? if not, and like i said, your projects will continue to take years and years to happen and its not like the mentality of ocr hasnt been anything beyond 'hurry up and wait' for the last oh what, 8 years now? i donno how it was from 2000 to 2002. you keep bringing up your shortcomings with what you have going on in ocr thats wrong as a whole while bringing up what you've got in the pipeline for years now that are legitimate good things and you're trying to represent the bad things as things to be proud of, yet when the things you guys do come to fruition its almost received with the sentiment of it finally coming together, like people didnt expect it to. is that the kind of projects you want to be involved with and have ocr be known as? i think you guys are better than that.

maybe thats not what it is at the heart and essence of it truly, but thats what i see on the outside lookin in from not only ocr as it presents itself, but how the community presents its impression of ocr in return. the majority of ocr massive proper doesnt seem to reach out beyond ocr a ton, i know there is exceptions and people who do a lot of different things.

the only thing im surprised by is how youve tried to mitigate those shortcomings you guys have as a whole with ocr and act like its unwarranted for someone to be frustrated with the organization as a whole when they are ignored repeatedly and you guys lie about it and say whatever it is you are saying to absolve yourselves of how people will view that. steve knew i was trying to get you guys to get in contact with him but nobody wanted to on your end. maybe steve could have helped ocr a fucking ton, but now you guys will probably never find out because you choose to simply not understand. as far as the projects ocr has, it sounds like you guys have too much on the plate and not enough manpower to help out with crucial details.

ill be leaving this whole dialog now, i have snow to shovel and preparations to make. steve can continue it and add anything he might need or want to say to make the situation worse or whatever it is now, i dont care a farts worth now and really, its cool. i honestly dont have any anger or anything toward anybody in this situation. i feel a ton of indifference and a little bit of sickness in my stomach for people just in general in terms of one person to another because of how people have talked to each other in this thread among other ones. what did i invest in any of these communities? my time or pride isnt at stake. the only thing i have at stake is possibly saying something that can make people see or understand one another better. my heart, thats all i've ever wanted to give anybody. i always just wanted to make a personal connection with every single person who ever appreciated my music. and maybe i'll do that in life. this line of thought and this route of discussion is getting nobody anywhere, its a waste of my time to explain it when people just want to bring up things that arent even factors and completely shun the truth and the facts of things. I KNOW how people acted in all of this, and i'll leave it at that.
  #42  
Old Feb 9, 2010, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by shawnphase View Post
the only thing im surprised by is how youve tried to mitigate those shortcomings you guys have as a whole with ocr and act like its unwarranted for someone to be frustrated with the organization as a whole when they are ignored repeatedly and you guys lie about it and say whatever it is you are saying to absolve yourselves of how people will view that. steve knew i was trying to get you guys to get in contact with him but nobody wanted to on your end. maybe steve could have helped ocr a fucking ton, but now you guys will probably never find out because you choose to simply not understand. as far as the projects ocr has, it sounds like you guys have too much on the plate and not enough manpower to help out with crucial details.
I haven't read through all posts but I just want to chime in on this. To be frustrated with us as an organization is okay but OCR is a not-for-profit organization doing a metricfuckton of work available for free for everyone. OCR does not owe anyone anything in any way, Dave keeps OCR alive and works on it without getting a single penny to anything else than server costs. When you come and say we're mean because we didn't help Steve start a new remix site that TO ME seem like it came out of "OCR isn't good enough".. I don't get that. This is not about being mean, we're regular people that have invested so much free time in OCR it's mindblowing. We take care of hundreds of submissions a year and the sights been running for 10 years.

What is there even to "understand"? The first I saw about remixSite was a post on the OCR forums telling people it had started and that it was another part of VGM remixing. That's great, good on ya for trying, but why should OCR help him with that? Sure, we can co-exist and it'd probably be good if people liked the concept of remixSite but I really, REALLY don't see what it has to do with OCR at all. We're not the VGM community, the people are the VGM community.

As far as manpower that's being handled. And if the "crucial details" would be responding to all PMs or helping another, newly started website get on it's feet or work together with OCR.. well, I don't know what to say. Believe me when I say there are things that are just plain more important for OCR and the community as a whole. No offense meant by any of this by the way, I hope you continue with VGM Shawn.
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  #43  
Old Feb 9, 2010, 07:22 PM
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No.

I get lots of E-Mails every day. I work 9 hours a day, commute, go to the gym every night, make dinner, clean the house, do wash, shop, and do all the other stuff that's necessary to live, and I often feel dead by the time I'm done at night. But I still reply to all my E-Mails. It doesn't take long to reply to E-Mails, even if it's just to say that you will get back to them later. When you don't reply to an E-Mail, PM, or other method of communication, you are disrespecting the other person.

I sent this E-Mail to you, zircon, on August 24:

Code:
Hi zircon,

I've been following your work for a while, and have been impressed with
your video game music for years.  I listened to every episode of the VGDJ
podcast, and you seem to remix a lot of FF6 music, which is probably my
fourth favorite game of all time.

If you haven't had a chance to check it out, in February I started a video
game music site at http://www.remixsite.org.  The site is not designed to
compete with Overclocked ReMix, as it has a different purpose.  Whereas
OCR judges for the best music, we let people post everything themselves.

Perhaps you might be interested in posting a song or two of yours there -
even if it's one that you released many years ago.  Instead of marketing
to the existing community, we're attempting to expand it through other
channels, so people who otherwise might not hear your songs will probably
download them.  You can include URLs in the description field and could
gain some publicity for your other projects.

If you have any questions, feel free to reply to this message or I'm
reachable at quintin3265 anytime on AIM.

Later,

-Steve Sokolowski (quintin3265)
steve@shoemakervillage.org
And it was received. Does this E-Mail sound like it was demanding the world? If someone had sent you an E-Mail saying that you had won a million dollars, you would have replied. People are only too busy for things that they consider unimportant.

By stating that I don't deserve a reply, what you are actually saying is that I'm less important than you are. Your time is more valuable than mine because you are somehow busier than everyone else is. I've posted comments to celebrities with thousands of listeners and they have replied within minutes in many cases.

I have to go to bed now for work, so I'll address the issue of apologies and what djpretzel had to say tomorrow.



Quote:
Originally Posted by zircon View Post
Shawn, why exactly would you expect anyone on the OCR staff to even dream of helping remixSite after being personally attacked and falsely accused? Nobody on the OCR staff has done anything to imply that remixSite is a bad idea, should be shut down, or whatever. There has been 0 bad intention from our side, though the same can't be said of Quintin.

As far as I can tell the only thing we did was let Quintin's attempt at communication fall by the wayside. And as far as I can tell, you're STILL ascribing malice to this when there was none. Again you really have no idea how busy things have been staff-side at OCR. We've undergone some fairly major changes recently and there's a giant project in the works that has taken years to develop. Larry, normally our point person for communication, got a full time job last year which has reduced his available time for OCR by a huge amount. People like me have had to step down from the panel due to life changes. The list goes on.

What I'm trying to tell you is very simple. OCR's staff has VERY limited time, especially Dave. Our internal communication is fine; when I said Dave doesn't respond to stuff from us, all I meant was that we're often throwing a hundred ideas at a time at him, and he can't possibly deal with every one. For example, in the last two weeks we've been discussing and coordinating:

* The release of the upcoming DKC 2 project (takes a ton of effort + time)
* New project guidelines and forums, the creation of a project moderation team
* The evaluation of the upcoming Teen Agent project and its release
* Promotion of a new sample library on the front page
* A Sega-sponsored contest we're running
* A project being run by Anso (can't say more)
* The secret project mentioned earlier which has taken years
* Mass Effect 2 composer interviews
* Evaluating new potential judges, creating a test batch, sending them out, analyzing their test votes
* Forum modifications and improvements such as the addition of blogs

And this is honestly just off the top of my head. Dave has to be involved with EVERY one of those things. Do you understand now why it's not surprising if emails or PMs get sent and not responded to?
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Last edited by quintin3265; Feb 9, 2010 at 07:26 PM.
  #44  
Old Feb 9, 2010, 07:24 PM
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Akumu Akumu is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quintin3265
If someone had sent you an E-Mail saying that you had won a million dollars, you would have replied.
I got an email this morning from an nigerian princess saying i won a million dollars

I didn't reply
  #45  
Old Feb 9, 2010, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quintin3265 View Post
No.

I get lots of E-Mails every day. I work 9 hours a day, commute, go to the gym every night, make dinner, clean the house, do wash, shop, and do all the other stuff that's necessary to live, and I often feel dead by the time I'm done at night. But I still reply to all my E-Mails. It doesn't take long to reply to E-Mails, even if it's just to say that you will get back to them later. When you don't reply to an E-Mail, PM, or other method of communication, you are disrespecting the other person.
You realize OCR staff has a real life and real work too right? We don't get paid for OCR?
Quote:
I sent this E-Mail to you, zircon, on August 24:

Code:
Hi zircon,

I've been following your work for a while, and have been impressed with
your video game music for years.  I listened to every episode of the VGDJ
podcast, and you seem to remix a lot of FF6 music, which is probably my
fourth favorite game of all time.

If you haven't had a chance to check it out, in February I started a video
game music site at http://www.remixsite.org.  The site is not designed to
compete with Overclocked ReMix, as it has a different purpose.  Whereas
OCR judges for the best music, we let people post everything themselves.

Perhaps you might be interested in posting a song or two of yours there -
even if it's one that you released many years ago.  Instead of marketing
to the existing community, we're attempting to expand it through other
channels, so people who otherwise might not hear your songs will probably
download them.  You can include URLs in the description field and could
gain some publicity for your other projects.

If you have any questions, feel free to reply to this message or I'm
reachable at quintin3265 anytime on AIM.

Later,

-Steve Sokolowski (quintin3265)
steve@shoemakervillage.org
And it was received. Does this E-Mail sound like it was demanding the world? If someone had sent you an E-Mail saying that you had won a million dollars, you would have replied. People are only too busy for things that they consider unimportant.

By stating that I don't deserve a reply, what you are actually saying is that I'm less important than you are. Your time is more valuable than mine because you are somehow busier than everyone else is. I've posted comments to celebrities with thousands of listeners and they have replied within minutes in many cases.
You were someone he had never ever talked to asking him to post his music to your new site which he knew nothing of. It was quite a generic outreach e-mail and I'm guessing you were sending it to many people, yes? He's also on the OCR staff, associated with OCR, posting remixes on OCR. Even if you don't compete with OCR in your mission, why would he post stuff to remixSite? Beyond that, do you know how many e-mails Andy gets? He's getting all kinds of requests, business mails, fan mails and so on. The fact that he didn't reply to your mail does NOT mean OCR hates you. It DOES mean you're less important to him but what the bloody hell did you expect? Him sending a bunch of remixes back to you? Get real.

I.. I really really try hard to see your problem here but it's such an amazingly small thing but it made you start a thread calling the remixing community out.. I'm sorry things aren't working out for remixSite but please answer me this, as simple as you can: What has this got to do with OCR? Why do Dave, the remixers or anyone owe you anything?
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Last edited by Another Soundscape; Feb 9, 2010 at 08:08 PM.
  #46  
Old Feb 9, 2010, 07:39 PM
zircon zircon is offline
 
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Quote:
I get lots of E-Mails every day. I work 9 hours a day, commute, go to the gym every night, make dinner, clean the house, do wash, shop, and do all the other stuff that's necessary to live, and I often feel dead by the time I'm done at night. But I still reply to all my E-Mails. It doesn't take long to reply to E-Mails, even if it's just to say that you will get back to them later. When you don't reply to an E-Mail, PM, or other method of communication, you are disrespecting the other person.
Yes, I was like this too three or four years ago. But if there is one thing you desperately need to learn about the music industry it's that you absolutely cannot expect everybody to be like that. Take it personally all you want; it's only going to make your life miserable. There are entire books written about how important it is to delegate responsibilities in the music industry and NOT respond to every inquiry and email you get, or if you're a business owner, both of which are true for me (and really for most people on the OCR staff.)

I will tell you straight-up why I didn't respond to your email. It looks like spam. It's asking me to spend my own time doing things to benefit you and your site. What is my motivation for doing this? Why should I give you my time and get nothing in return? If anything, you're acting self-important here, as if I somehow owe you ANYTHING at all. This simply isn't how the world works. If you send an unsolicited music demo to Sony or Universal, do you know where it goes? Into the garbage. I've actually gone to networking events, had hour-long conversations with people, exchanged business cards, and driven them home, and NOT received replies to my emails to them afterward. That's how the world actually works.

Last edited by zircon; Feb 9, 2010 at 07:48 PM.
  #47  
Old Feb 9, 2010, 07:44 PM
BahamutWC BahamutWC is offline
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You're making assumptions on zircon's thoughts. He ignores a bunch of my messages, and I was one of the lucky few non-relatives who was invited to his wedding & attended. I guess that means I am unimportant to him.

You need to get a grip on assuming too much. It is clear you do not understand the life of a person who pushes his/her time usage to the max - if you think making accusations like that is more important than coming up with good design decisions, then ok, but don't expect anyone to give you a positive response when you act like a psycho like this.

And for the record, I work essentially 12-14 hours of generally mentally straining work a day, including doctoral research at one of the most prestigious universities in the world, and get over 200 emails a day, so don't give me that crap that it's not difficult. I personally try to get on top of things, but sometimes emails do fall through the cracks - it happens. At the least I'm not going to assume the worst when I have no way of verifying the exact details without contacting the person through other social media.

If you're going to be so assuming about people, have you ever thought that it might not be them with the problem of not caring necessarily, but you being insensitive to their life? Do you care that little about other people that you are willing to assume something about them without substantial evidence?

These are honest questions.

However, as djpretzel said earlier, if you're more interested in the blame game than finetuning your website, then you have no one to blame for the lack of a community. The adage "if you build it, they will come" rings true here - the foundation is the problem, and if you want to give people a reason to visit the site frequently, then you need to spend the time & work fixing that. Otherwise, the rest is just noise to cover up your own deficiencies.

That is all I have to say about this - it'd be great if you matured/manned up, but that's up to you.
  #48  
Old Feb 9, 2010, 09:57 PM
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shawnphase shawnphase is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BahamutWC View Post
You need to get a grip on assuming too much. It is clear you do not understand the life of a person who pushes his/her time usage to the max - if you think making accusations like that is more important than coming up with good design decisions, then ok, but don't expect anyone to give you a positive response when you act like a psycho like this.
im not trying to pick a fight wes, but did you tell dude not to assume so much, then you make that same kind of assumption about how he budgets his time? thats bullshit buddy! you dont know anything about steve's main job or his secondary jobs, do you? i do. so do you even see your flawed logic here? you probably dont care, i donno why im gonna reply after i said im done. i guess its on the off chance that you'll give a second thought to the way youre acting and the way it comes off to me. you're kinda comin off like a holier than thou jerk..

Quote:
And for the record, I work essentially 12-14 hours of generally mentally straining work a day, including doctoral research at one of the most prestigious universities in the world, and get over 200 emails a day, so don't give me that crap that it's not difficult. I personally try to get on top of things, but sometimes emails do fall through the cracks - it happens. At the least I'm not going to assume the worst when I have no way of verifying the exact details without contacting the person through other social media.
thats well and fine for you, and im sure it is good work to do. 12-14 hours of mentally straining work a day can be tough if its physical work, but i see you on irc talking every day so i doubt its as mentally straining as you're purporting.

putting what you do 'for the record' into an argument makes you look like you have something to say as if you wanted to be bragging about it, and for the sake of argument. so like, wwwwwwwwwwwwhhhhhhhhhhhhhhyyyyyyyyyyyy.. its nocworthy as far as this discussion is concerned; when you accuse someone of something and then act like this and do the almost same exact thing you accuse them of, it kind of makes you look like you dont know what you're talking about as simply a person who might have personality traits that are considerate of others.

and hey, i dont really know for sure. i dont know you. what i saw was you comin off looking real one dimensional and falsely justified with your replies here, as youve brought up things that really have no bearing or relevance to the topic or discussion or how it fits into the big picture simply to justify YOUR opinion.

conversely to what you're telling steve, you shouldnt consider someone's perspective to the big picture of what they see an 'accusation' when other people see that 'accusation' as something that actually happened and is based in fact.

Quote:
If you're going to be so assuming about people, have you ever thought that it might not be them with the problem of not caring necessarily, but you being insensitive to their life? Do you care that little about other people that you are willing to assume something about them without substantial evidence?
These are honest questions.
this rhetoric that you think you can afford to him has been sullyed by making an example out of yourself. that i believe is a fair opinion. makes you look presumptuous and inconsiderate too. if you want to deny that you're being fairly insensitive, then you'll have to agree that you are baselessly pointing the finger. thats an honest accusation to be sure.

Quote:
However, as djpretzel said earlier, if you're more interested in the blame game than finetuning your website, then you have no one to blame for the lack of a community. The adage "if you build it, they will come" rings true here - the foundation is the problem, and if you want to give people a reason to visit the site frequently, then you need to spend the time & work fixing that. Otherwise, the rest is just noise to cover up your own deficiencies.

That is all I have to say about this - it'd be great if you matured/manned up, but that's up to you.
i believe steve is just used to being a little too forthcoming publically about his website rather than actually doing the nut up, shut up, and implementing the sticky-sitecentric changes ive suggested to him that would help people use and give remixsite a chance without thinking that he's a little too pushy.. but thats not gonna happen. progress there in terms of simple changes to the frontend endproduct like edit/deletion options, menu options, real simple navigation things simply hasnt happened as much as i've tried to tell steve that those things need to be changed or nobody will want to use the site, much less actually use it. in short, i've tried to help him out as much as i can to guide him in the right direction, but he keeps making all the wrong turns. so im stepping out of having anything to do with remixsite from now on.
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  #49  
Old Feb 10, 2010, 12:12 AM
BahamutWC BahamutWC is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnphase View Post
im not trying to pick a fight wes, but did you tell dude not to assume so much, then you make that same kind of assumption about how he budgets his time? thats bullshit buddy! you dont know anything about steve's main job or his secondary jobs, do you? i do. so do you even see your flawed logic here? you probably dont care, i donno why im gonna reply after i said im done. i guess its on the off chance that you'll give a second thought to the way youre acting and the way it comes off to me. you're kinda comin off like a holier than thou jerk..
Flawed logic? Gonna be honest here, you should go back to your first few posts in this thread for some of that - some of it can't even be made sense of.

So then, answer me this - if he maxed out his time, would he be complaining about some people not answering their emails, or would he be solving some of the fundamental design issues that plague the site? (which quite frankly shouldn't take much time to even realize) You have avoided answering this question to call out hypocrisy, even though the question was aimed at him. It's a perfectly legitimate point that has not been disproven at all.

I'll give the answer - the whining isn't productive, and if anything, it puts people off. He wants to talk about the fragmentation of the communities, and then he goes accusing people of not doing one small thing? As djp alluded to, you're not going to get any solutions by furthering accusing for no apparently purpose other than to satiate the feeling of being slighted. Putting personal feelings first over problem solving is what causes many of these problems to develop in the first place. If ego is what's stopping development, then that person has absolutely no place in complaining about others when he/she does not look into his/her own attitude(s).





Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnphase View Post
thats well and fine for you, and im sure it is good work to do. 12-14 hours of mentally straining work a day can be tough if its physical work, but i see you on irc talking every day so i doubt its as mentally straining as you're purporting.

putting what you do 'for the record' into an argument makes you look like you have something to say as if you wanted to be bragging about it, and for the sake of argument. so like, wwwwwwwwwwwwhhhhhhhhhhhhhhyyyyyyyyyyyy.. its nocworthy as far as this discussion is concerned; when you accuse someone of something and then act like this and do the almost same exact thing you accuse them of, it kind of makes you look like you dont know what you're talking about as simply a person who might have personality traits that are considerate of others.
If you want to assail me for mentioning that, why don't you go complain about quintin doing the same? I merely provided a counterexample to his generalizations, which is certainly a valid thing to do - if someone tries to generalize based on his/her own experience, one can post any counterexample, with one's own experience or another's, and it serves as a perfect way to disprove such a claim from generalization.

I'll copy/paste the aforementioned post, which it is easy to check precedes my own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quintin3265 View Post
No.

I get lots of E-Mails every day. I work 9 hours a day, commute, go to the gym every night, make dinner, clean the house, do wash, shop, and do all the other stuff that's necessary to live, and I often feel dead by the time I'm done at night. But I still reply to all my E-Mails. It doesn't take long to reply to E-Mails, even if it's just to say that you will get back to them later. When you don't reply to an E-Mail, PM, or other method of communication, you are disrespecting the other person.
I think this says it all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnphase View Post
and hey, i dont really know for sure. i dont know you. what i saw was you comin off looking real one dimensional and falsely justified with your replies here, as youve brought up things that really have no bearing or relevance to the topic or discussion or how it fits into the big picture simply to justify YOUR opinion.
Nope, everything I said was central to the point djp made - is he more interested in tossing out red herrings, or is he more interested in focusing on one vision without fail? Is he going to make a drastic judgment on one person or a series of people based on one human failing that isn't a crime against humanity or even a wrong? That question is for him to answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnphase View Post
conversely to what you're telling steve, you shouldnt consider someone's perspective to the big picture of what they see an 'accusation' when other people see that 'accusation' as something that actually happened and is based in fact.
Actually, I'm told he outright lied about something in this thread (in particular the vague attack on OCR about being concerned about profit) - if he is going to make a claim, he needs to back it up or shut that slander up. If it's not about OCR, then say what it's about. If he won't say, then he shouldn't make a bullshit statement like that, pure and simple.

There were missed emails sure - however, zircon gave his explanation why he did not respond, and it was a perfectly valid one. However, to make the leap that quintin did? Far more broken logic than anything I've said or you have been trying to complain about. But that is the irrelevant part - the relevant part is what is he more interested in, crying about it, making vague attacks that he doesn't appear willing to back up with concrete statements (excepting the email, and that was debunked by zircon from being a grand wrong), and in general acting as if he deserves everyone's time asap, or is he more interested in promoting music above all? The design decisions sure don't reflect the latter currently, and that is what I'll leave it at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnphase View Post
this rhetoric that you think you can afford to him has been sullyed by making an example out of yourself. that i believe is a fair opinion. makes you look presumptuous and inconsiderate too. if you want to deny that you're being fairly insensitive, then you'll have to agree that you are baselessly pointing the finger. thats an honest accusation to be sure.
Nope, how am I pointing the finger without reason? I brought up a legitimate lesson that every person should learn, brought up only the relevant details to that lesson, and referred to why the lesson should be learned if quintin truly wants to improve the site for the long term. It is a basic lesson that virtually every successful businessman understands, and is 100% relevant here. Do you deny that quintin has a choice, to devote the time figuring out the problems he has in design, coming up with a good solution, and executing, or to throw up his hands and give up?

Anything else is noise compared to this question.

If you look deeper, you'll understand that we're giving real advice here that should he grasp and understand, could enable him to take his site further. Nobody else seems interested in giving that advice, and quite frankly, his attitude so far has been offputting from me even wanting to be willing to give this advice. However, if he's receptive, I don't want to miss a chance to give such an important life lesson, in the event he learns it because I care about people.

There is something important in hearing words you may not necessarily want to hear, but that are truthful. You don't improve for the most part without hearing that type of criticism - I am not one to baby someone only for that person to find out that he/she has been misled. I am going to point it out upfront and do my utmost to avoid the problem, and use it as a teaching point.

If what quintin wanted to hear is how to improve his site, that is exactly what djp and I gave & genuinely hope he tries to understand and learn from. If what he wanted to hear is affirmation that he made all of the right decisions, then that's not what we are about, because just judging by the end result being complained about, it clearly was not accomplished (having a vibrant community). I am not going to lie simply because he potentially doesn't want to hear the advice that he supposedly seeked out.
  #50  
Old Feb 10, 2010, 12:23 AM
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not gonna be bothered with reading or replying to anything in this thread anymore.
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  #51  
Old Feb 10, 2010, 07:11 AM
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quintin3265 quintin3265 is offline
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First, let's cut through all this rhetoric and get to the facts. We can't have a discussion until people start getting the facts straight.

1. I did not accuse Overclocked ReMix of being for-profit. I never stated that the site made money. Stop throwing around this statement because it is not true. Read the posts above, or E-Mail gigablah and he will confirm to you that I did not edit my posts to change what they said.

2. The first contact I had with Overclocked ReMix was not a "I'd love to help, and here's some suggestions" message. Instead, Liontamer locked the first thread I posted, basically telling me to go away. Although he did say that I could post another thread later, this is hardly a good start to a relationship. This action can be verified by reviewing the Overclocked ReMix forums from May 8.

3. I did not send form letters or copy spam to anyone. If anyone requests me to verify this, I'll post the 70 letters that I individually wrote and mailed to various artists and bands. Again, these are facts, not issues that are disputable.

-----------------------------------

I'm tired of this E-Mails issue, because it's ridiculous. The bottom line is that you, zircon, didn't care enough to reply. You say that you don't have time to reply to E-Mails, but that's not true. How do I know that? Because you took the time to visit my Overclocked ReMix profile page. The boards display the last visitors to one's profile. How do you have time to visit my profile, but yet you're too busy to reply to a simple message? If you get too many messages, why post your E-Mail address on your website with directions to contact you? Saying that the message was spam is now ridiculous, because you knew who I was since you visited the profile page. You were on IRC frequently chatting and now you also suddenly have enough time to post messages here, as soon as controversy erupts over Overclocked ReMix. Why won't you simply acknowledge that some might see not replying to an E-Mail as rude? That's all I'm trying to get at here.

------------------------------------

Now, I acknowledge that drawing attention to Liontamer and djpretzel was out of the norm. I'll even go so far as to apologize for calling out Liontamer and djpretzel in public, but Liontamer needs to reciprocate by repudiating his false assertion that I believe Overclocked ReMix makes a profit, and djpretzel and Liontamer need to acknowledge that they could have handled the situation better by replying to one message, even if it was to say no. Remember, this was three or more messages over the course of several months that were definitely received. I think this is a fair trade.

I should also address the issue of suggestions. I've implemented around a hundred suggestions from community members. However, the problem with suggestions is that they often don't agree or there isn't enough information to figure out what to do. I appreciate all the suggestions that everyone has given, but there are some things that I can't fix without more involved help. Some people have said that they dislike the graphics used on the site; however, I don't know anything about graphic design. Even if I did, though, suggestions that "something needs to be changed" about the graphics aren't helpful enough to take action. I followed the suggestions by changing the colors back in July, and people said that the new colors were just as bad.

Sometimes, there are also conflicting suggestions, such as one person stating that a button should be located at the top while another person says that the button should be located at the bottom. More frequent, however, are one-off suggestions, where one person says that something would be helpful. If you look at http://www.shoemakervillage.org/mantis, you'll see that there are hundreds of one-off suggestions. Where should I start with these suggestions? I realize that everyone is important, but it's hard to figure out whether what one person says would be useful would actually be useful to everyone. There isn't anyone who wants to work closely enough to really examine suggestions and second them for implementation, nor is there a high enough volume of suggestions so that certain suggestions are repeated over and over.

Finally, even if we had all the suggestions possible, they can only be implemented on Saturdays and Sundays because of the lack of assistance. This is why I find those who feel that "I'm not listening to suggestions" somewhat unreasonable. I'm willing to work really hard to fix suggestions, but people need to be very specific about how things should be fixed (the specific location of the button, or the color of the graphic), they need to understand that a cost-benefit analysis is performed in the face of limited time to prioritize suggestions, and, most importantly, they need to volunteer to take a more active role.

Muuurgh has already done this by organizing a compo to be held this month, but the bottom line is that people need to be willing to make a small commitment to assisting if they really want to see a non-profit site succeed. It's easy to say that the site is bad, but it will never get better unless someone or some people help out.
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Last edited by quintin3265; Feb 10, 2010 at 07:24 AM.
  #52  
Old Feb 10, 2010, 08:51 AM
Koti Koti is offline
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post removed, sorry

Last edited by Koti; Feb 11, 2010 at 12:35 AM.
  #53  
Old Feb 10, 2010, 10:19 AM
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Kaleb.G Kaleb.G is offline
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This thread has some lulz and much tl;dr, but I wanted to mention my opinion on working on not-for-profit projects in general: Most importantly, I only focus on making something enjoyable and unique. I don't care about where I stand amongst others. There is no competition. There is no race. I'm creating something to achieve a purpose, not to generate popularity. If the work is good, and there is a possible audience for it, it's likely to catch attention. But if it doesn't, I don't sweat; there are often fickle and intangible reasons for such a thing (e.g. a niche that is already filled). If I achieve what I want to achieve, that's what matters. Also, co-operation is not always necessary. Many great things have been created by individuals.

Obviously, since you're trying to create a community, getting people involved is important... But the site should reel them in; you shouldn't have to.
  #54  
Old Feb 10, 2010, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Here's a summary of this ironically titled thread.
I like my summary more

(meant jokingly!)
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  #55  
Old Feb 10, 2010, 10:56 AM
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Akumu Akumu is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitz Lunar View Post
I like my summary more

(meant jokingly!)
  #56  
Old Feb 10, 2010, 01:06 PM
Kidd Cabbage Kidd Cabbage is offline
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LESS DRAMA MORE DOTA

But srsly, I'm a friend to both sides of this argument, and know people personally on both sides in this thread, and I gotta say that it's not doing ANY good to keep arguing like this. It's unprofessional and makes both sides look bad. This is coming from someone unbiased, since I pretty much like ALL of you and what you stand for in this thread.

Quintin: The OCR guys are right when they say that your public criticisms against OCR aren't helpful or professional. Burning bridges with the biggest site in the niche isn't a good way to get ahead, and while I understand it's frustrating as hell that you can't get any help from them, but there's really no obligation on their part to show you or your site goodwill. However, your apology *is* a good way to get back on friendly terms and put this behind us.

OCR: Okay dudes, your site gets how many hits a week :P ? There wasn't really anything in this forum that gets a post every few days that merits the response gotten, and having half the site's leadership come here to argue with isn't very professional - and from what I can see, doesn't actually benefit you. How would you feel about Bill Gates posting in the Apple forums about the "I'm a Mac, and I'm a PC" commercials?

Like I said, I like both of you and I'm not trying to rift my relationship with either group here. I'd just like to point out that this argument isn't actually helping anyone on either side. We just need more <3.


Last edited by Kidd Cabbage; Feb 10, 2010 at 01:09 PM.
  #57  
Old Feb 10, 2010, 02:24 PM
Monobrow Monobrow is offline
 
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Just want to point out that he didn't say this on OCR. He said this all on his own website after repeatedly trying to communicate with dudes from OCR. He was venting frustrations. When you vent frustrations, it's usually because no one has taken the time to understand how you feel and you "vent" to get rid of the anger and hurt you feel, which was caused by something bad happening to you. Regardless of whether this guy was right or wrong, I don't find what he did deserving of the shitstorm that has ensued. The crime does not fit the punishment guys. Complete ostracism and segregation now? Is this really necessary?

When you put your time and hard work into something, and it's not going well, and you ask for help from people that you respect, and get all but ignored, it's going to hurt. When you complain, and those people get up in your face because you complained, what's that going to solve?

You guys are busy, we get it, all of the things you are busy with have, in fact, been bullet pointed and listed above. Understood. But apparently you dudes are not busy enough to not take the time to reply to the "negative" attention that has now become a factor in your relationship.

The reply that this guy got was more of a case of "I have been around longer than you and have done all these things and am better than you and you whine at me when I don't acknowledge you?" Or at least it seemed that way, especially to him. I mean I can pretty much understand how he feels now. Even if the situation has gotten so ugly... I just don't understand... I really don't get why it had to get this ugly and hurtful.

It's one of those cases where someone has a problem with somebody, and that person gets all mad that there is a problem in the first place. I hate that so much. Why not just address the issue and talk it out guys? If you don't understand, then say "I don't understand"... Not everything has to be the equivalent of a fight by the swingset after school you know? A bunch of raging bulls butting heads, comparing "portfolios" and telling everyone how important they are.

Why did all this stuff have to come into play in the argument in the first place?

I have to say, my heart goes out to this guy because I hate that feeling more than anything. I understand that you guys must not care about PR or anything, but the analogy I get here is the "not so cool kid" trying to hang out with the "cool kids" and getting the shit beat out of him for even trying... Out by the monkeybars...

The fact that this debate got so dirty doesn't surprise me, I mean most of us from this community are pretty used to it. But it is tiring to see over and over and I really think most of you are better than this. I honestly do. I mean, why do you think I've hung around for so long? Not to make this about me, because it is not... But I just really think most of you are just really cool people and all have something great to offer. I don't want to see more bad blood and feelings keep sprawling up, from bad seeds planted like this.

Old stuff has been dead and buried, but you know? It happened, and it happened for various reasons that might be repeating and coming into play here. People remember... And the best medicine for this is to not repeat mistakes, or not do things to others that have been done to you... To not sweep these things under the rug, but to keep remembering that in order for things to not happen again, we should all just remember these things and why they happened and try our best to get along with each other.

Just because stuff happened ten years ago doesn't mean it's not relevant towards the argument. It's not about finger pointing, but more about focusing on trends that have happened in the past and a need to fix those trends.

I mean reading this just shows me that so much really has not changed. I'm not saying that this guy was right or wrong, I don't know the details of your relationship, I am just replying to what I have seen from this thread, the ugliness of it, the extreme viewpoints, the black and white arguments, the completely unnecessary banter and maliciousness of it, with a tremendous lack of wanting to understand or help the situation. Lines between friend and enemy clearly drawn when it didn't have to happen this way. It's extremely depressing to watch.

::cringes::
  #58  
Old Feb 10, 2010, 02:24 PM
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Akumu Akumu is offline
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Actually the OCR representatives was nothing but professional and kept their cool.

Sadly your friends didn't, as expected
  #59  
Old Feb 10, 2010, 02:31 PM
Protricity Protricity is offline
 
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Yeast is troublesome.

Last edited by Protricity; Feb 10, 2010 at 02:39 PM.
  #60  
Old Feb 10, 2010, 02:40 PM
Monobrow Monobrow is offline
 
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I don't even understand Akumu at all and have edited my post like three times to appear that I do understand, but I don't... HELP!

Last edited by Monobrow; Feb 10, 2010 at 02:43 PM.
 

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