Submissions - Release Type (Publisher Type)

[Ira]

So, after thinking/talking about it a bit here's a short proposal:

• Remove publisher type entirely. It's not useful as the main goal seems to be to distinguish albums which are made up of (or contain) fan-arranges from those that aren't. It's also a difficult thing to determine at times (as there is no one definition of indie/commercial/etc.)
• Add a check box for designating albumｓ as bootlegs.
• Split the 'arrange' classification into 'arrange' and 'fan-arrange'.
  • Arrange (or official-arrange): Arranges endorsed/published by the rights holders (such as this) or arrangements by the original composer (such as this.)
  • Fan-arrange (or unofficial-arrange): Arranges that aren't endorsed by the rights holders.

This still isn't a perfect solution as there is still some gray area with albums like this where it's unknown whether endorsement from the rights holders was obtained.

Thoughts, feedback, glaring issues?

[Another Soundscape]

Originally Posted by Ira

So, after thinking/talking about it a bit here's a short proposal:

• Remove publisher type entirely. It's not useful as the main goal seems to be to distinguish albums which are made up of (or contain) fan-arranges from those that aren't. It's also a difficult thing to determine at times (as there is no one definition of indie/commercial/etc.)
• Add a check box for designating albumｓ as bootlegs.
• Split the 'arrange' classification into 'arrange' and 'fan-arrange'.
  • Arrange (or official-arrange): Arranges endorsed/published by the rights holders (such as this) or arrangements by the original composer (such as this.)
  • Fan-arrange (or unofficial-arrange): Arranges that aren't endorsed by the rights holders.

This still isn't a perfect solution as there is still some gray area with albums like this where it's unknown whether endorsement from the rights holders was obtained.

Thoughts, feedback, glaring issues?

I'm strongly in favor of this. Note also that just clicking the publisher gives you the "Publish Type" since that was mostly depending on the publisher's status anyway so the info isn't lost. Also, classification should dictate the color coding of the album as it's more accurate imo, reasons stated above.

EDIT: Additionally would it be possible to, when setting Classification, pick which one is the "Main" classification? Maybe using amount of tracks as the criteria for what's the main classification. For example, an original soundtrack featuring 3 bonus arrangement tracks would be classified as both Original Soundtrack and Arrangement, Original Soundtrack giving it the "color" and main category?

[Cedille]

Originally Posted by Ira

[*] Split the 'arrange' classification into 'arrange' and 'fan-arrange'.

• Arrange (or official-arrange): Arranges endorsed/published by the rights holders (such as this) or arrangements by the original composer (such as this.)
• Fan-arrange (or unofficial-arrange): Arranges that aren't endorsed by the rights holders.

Um, interesting. But if you means getting the licence from the right-holder by "endorsed", I worry some doujin album are treated as official-arrange since some circle apparently pay fees to JASRAC. Given doujin is more about professionalism, I think the classification from a pure standpoint of copyright isn't enough so I'd prefer to keep the publisher type.

[Ira]

Originally Posted by Cedille

Um, interesting. But if you means getting the licence from the right-holder by "endorsed", I worry some doujin album are treated as official-arrange since some circle apparently pay fees to JASRAC. Given doujin is more about professionalism, I think the classification from a pure standpoint of copyright isn't enough so I'd prefer to keep the publisher type.

What people seem to want from it is the ability to distinguish fan/unofficial-arranges from the rest of the content on the site, this is a simple way of making that distinction. Perhaps endorsement is the wrong term to use in this case, but I'd also say it's say safe to call doujin arrange albums fan-arranges even if they're paying fees to JASRAC.

Originally Posted by Dag

So what classification would ZUN's albums? He's like THE doujin guy. I'd be strange they'd just become "official". Plus I'd guess he 'endorses' Touhou arranges. And 'works' by doujin circles?

I'm not sure if I follow. Do you mean arranges of ZUN's work or work published by ZUN? Arranges of his work would be for the most part fan-arranges, because while ZUN supports the doujin community the only official arranges I'd say are the ones by Twilight Frontier. There are also some arrange albums he's participated on but they should be treated no differently than this. Arranges of his own work would be considered official-arranges and the rest by others unofficial-arranges. As for albums by ZUN, his albums are the 'official' releases representing his work. Nothing regarding the classification of those albums would change from the way it is now (they're all soundtracks or works.)

To clarify:

• If a composer arranges a track of his own on an album published by fans (such as this or this) the classifications would be both arrange and fan-arrange (the arrangement by the composer being 'arrange' and the others being 'fan-arrange'.)
• If an arranger appears on an album published by the rights holder the classification given to it would be 'arrange', as it is part of an official release.

Further thoughts:
An alternative, in an attempt to try and make things less arbitrary, is for the 'arrange' classification to be limited to only arranges on albums published by the original rights holder or arranges by the original composer. This too has problems, because there are some albums that are official (or all but) and not published by the original rights holders. So, eh.

[Dag]

Originally Posted by Ira

As for albums by ZUN, his albums are the 'official' releases representing his work. Nothing regarding the classification of those albums would change from the way it is now (they're all soundtracks or works.)

I meant both his own albums and arranges by other people, but mainly his own. I understand if you take away the "Doujin/Indie" type his albums become regular releases/blue, but right now they are doujin/orange so they'd change...?

I don't really mind either way, don't get me wrong, but since ZUN and doujin (as in 'doujin subculture') come together in my mind, I find strange (and maybe others will) they'd suddenly become 'normal' osts' when they have been doujin/orange all this time.

Since doujin covers more than just arranges/fan-arranges it could get confusing, just saying.
And... Mozart arranges wouldn't be fan arranges? :P

[Ira]

Originally Posted by Dag

I meant both his own albums and arranges by other people, but mainly his own. I understand if you take away the "Doujin/Indie" type his albums become regular releases/blue, but right now they are doujin/orange so they'd change...?

I don't really mind either way, don't get me wrong, but since ZUN and doujin (as in 'doujin subculture') come together in my mind, I find strange (and maybe others will) they'd suddenly become 'normal' osts' when they have been doujin/orange all this time.

Well actually, with the previous album classifications all of his albums were blue. So those albums would be more or less going back to how they were before.

Originally Posted by Dag

Since doujin covers more than just arranges/fan-arranges it could get confusing, just saying.

Right, the idea behind the proposal is to remove the publisher type (doujin, commercial, indie, etc.) entirely. Color coding and such would be based on classification.

Originally Posted by Dag

And... Mozart arranges wouldn't be fan arranges? :P

They would be fan-arranges, unless Mozart rose from his grave and released an album with some arrange artists on it. No, thinking about this is another issue that would have to be worked out, because it seems odd for them to be labeled fan-arranges under certain circumstances. It's a matter of context, which is why finding a good solution is a pain in the ass. On the other hand, even if it seems 'odd' it's still a rather arbitrary decision to use it in some cases and not in others. The 'oddness' has more to do with the connotation of 'fan-arrange' than anything.

[Secret Squirrel]

Originally Posted by Dag

I meant both his own albums and arranges by other people, but mainly his own. I understand if you take away the "Doujin/Indie" type his albums become regular releases/blue, but right now they are doujin/orange so they'd change...?

I don't really mind either way, don't get me wrong, but since ZUN and doujin (as in 'doujin subculture') come together in my mind, I find strange (and maybe others will) they'd suddenly become 'normal' osts' when they have been doujin/orange all this time.

Yeah, Touhou games "officials" (the ZCDS series) used to show up in the general game music color, but now they are doujin/indie. I always prefered it the other way, but that was based on my incorrect understanding of the word "Doujin."

By the way, wasn't the popular PC game Myst produced out of some guy's garage? That would make the Myst soundtrack fall under Doujin/Indie, which is also bizarre.

Originally Posted by Dag

Since doujin covers more than just arranges/fan-arranges it could get confusing, just saying.
And... Mozart arranges wouldn't be fan arranges? :P

Though one distinction is that Mozart music is all public domain. It's fair game for anyone to use it for any purpose.

[Ira]

Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel

By the way, wasn't the popular PC game Myst produced out of some guy's garage? That would make the Myst soundtrack fall under Doujin/Indie, which is also bizarre.

I don't know anything about Myst personally, but I'll just say the way a game is published doesn't determine the way the soundtrack will be.

[Another Soundscape]

Originally Posted by Ira

I don't know anything about Myst personally, but I'll just say the way a game is published doesn't determine the way the soundtrack will be.

The way the music is made (garage or not) is irrelevant if it's an official soundtrack or not (i.e. music featured in the game).

ALSO, "Classification" should only be the content (i.e. arranged music, soundtrack, non-vgm and so on). You're all still talking about "Publish format" aren't you? I'm still in favor of giving publish format a less important role, I really don't understand why it should dictate color (the only thing used to identify albums on the fly)... To me it's way more natural to be looking for albums by content than "Publish format".

Beyond this the actual publisher should already have the relevant "publish format" (i.e. a doujin group is a doujin group and so on) so you can find that info there. Am I wrong?

[CHz]

I was writing up this stupidly gigantic post, but I don't really feel like inflicting that on anyone (I am sleep deprived), so here is a summary. Yes this is a summary, imagine how long the real thing was.

#1: I'm voting that we stop using the word "doujin" in this context, because it's caused nothing but confusion and it's not really what we're talking about anyway: fan arrangements.

#2: My gut solution was Ira's suggestion of chucking the field altogether and adding a bootleg checkbox and "fan arrangement" classification. Not perfect, but with the gray areas we're working with I don't think there is a perfect. It is better, which is what's important.

#3: Thinking about the "Publication" idea, I think that could work too, if we can apply it on a track-by-track basis like Classification and change the name to something better like "Licensing" or "Copyright." There is overlap with Classification, because copyright by definition involves content, but I think it's probably a distinct enough concept to stand on its own because legal status isn't actually content. It's a bit more overhead, but it strikes me as a bit cleaner than splitting up the legal stuff. Putting "fan arrangement" into Classification isn't ideal anyway because, unlike everything else in the category, it implies more than just the content of the audio.

#4: And then the rest of the post was free thinking about ramifications of the above decisions and what we're trying to filter out, becuase I get the feeling we don't really have a firm idea about that besides "them doujins."

#4a: Bootlegs. We want to hide all-bootleg albums, so albums with the bootleg checkbox set or whose only licensing status is bootleg are gone. Mixed albums with bootlegged and legit tracks aren't possible with the checkbox, but are possible with a track-by-track field. I can think of exactly one album where this matters: the Marginal Sound Track.

#4b: Fan arrangements. "Fan arrangement" seems kind of specific to me for a legal status, but "unofficial derived work" is hella wordy and that's really what we're talking about anyway. We obviously want to hide fan arrange albums (albums with only that classification, or albums with only that copyright status). What about fan arrangement + original work albums? There are a lot of them, but I can't really imagine that someone who isn't interested in fan arrangements would be interested in a fan arranger's original works. Fan arrangement + original soundtrack albums? We probably want to show those, though. And what about albums that are simultaneously fan arrangements and original soundtracks?

#4c: Original works. Completely original albums by doujin groups are currently hidden if you're filtering on "Doujin/Indie." Either solution to the publisher problem would show them, because they're not fan arrangements. Is this what we want? The Synergy albums are hidden by the current system, which is probably not an intended consequence. But trying to quantify what makes them special is a minefield surrounded by another minefield so I dunno.